Hey all, new member, new 10mm owner and first post.
I'm not a handgun guy so all of my previous shooting experience is with shotguns and rifles. I just bought my first 10mm handgun (EAA Witness) and am now completely intimidated by the roughly 80,000 ammo choices out there. I have two questions:
1) where to buy training ammo and what to buy? I bought 500 rounds of Prvi Partisan 180 gr. JHP for $325 including shipping. Is this a decent round and a decent price? Where do you guys find ammo that's not quite an arm and a leg? I'm running out of appendages....
2) I bought the Witness to carry while I'm hunting. I just started big game hunting in the west and decided that 15 rounds of 10mm strapped to my leg is better than 5 rounds of 30-06 laying on the ground. I figure that once I kill an elk I've just created dinner for an opportunistic bear or cougar. What round would you carry for a thick hided bear?
Thanks in advance for an wisdom imparted!
MadMac
What's traiing ammo? I train with whatever I end up shooting. And that would depend on what I want to use them for. I've pretty much settled on 180-185 grain projectiles. I would have cooked up a hunting load in my younger days. Now, two total knee replacements later, I pretty much just punch paper. I think 10mm just may overpenetrate for home defense use, here in the 'burbs where there is not much separation between houses. Another question is do you reload? I do and I pretty much settle on a load using 185 grain RFN moly coated Precision Bullets. If I was just buying them, I would get 180 grain TMJ bullets. If I WAS going to use it for home defense, I would get some kind of 180 grain JHP projectiles.
Welcome to the forum!
About the least expensive training ammo out there is from Georgia Arms in their Canned Heat line up of 10mm ammo. The problem is it's hardly ever in stock. But if you get on the list... You can check it out here - http://georgia-arms.com/10mm-2.aspx (http://georgia-arms.com/10mm-2.aspx)
If the hunting area is limited to Black Bear I would personally suggest Underwood's 200gr XTP load in 10mm ( http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto200grainxtpjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx (http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmauto200grainxtpjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx) ).
If Grizzlys or bigger I would personally suggest Underwood's 220 Grain Hard Cast Flat Nose in 10mm ( http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmAuto220GrainHardCastFlatNoseBoxof50.aspx (http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mmAuto220GrainHardCastFlatNoseBoxof50.aspx) )
The reason I suggest Underwood's offerings for the premium stuff is that they don't lie about the velocity, and it's even more powerful in the real world than Buffalo Bore's offerings. Don't even consider Double Tap 10mm ammo as then you may as well be shooting 40 S&W anyway (they lie big time about velocity).
Redline, thanks for the answer. I have a 22 upper for the Witness and will probably then move on to a 9mm then when I'm comfortable and then a lite 10 then howitzer 10. Like I said in my OP, I'm a newbie so I need to be broken in easy like and don't have the means to just shoot high end carry quality ammo! Thanks also for the links; very helpful!
MadMac
MadMac, welcome to the forum! Congrats with your EAA 10mm. :) The info on the Underwood is good to go!
10mm is a great cartridge for handloaders wanting to load from mild to wild performance levels while maintaining cost at reasonable levels. However in times like these, the supplies are harder to be found. ???
I have to agree with all of the above. When I first read your post about a good woods carry round out west the Underwood 220 grn. Was the first thing that popped in my little brain. Don't overestimate the recoil before you've tried it, especially in an all steel gun.
Again, heavy hardcast.
I cast my own and pack a 205 grain WFN loaded to 1200+ fps in the little hills called the Wasatch and Uintah mountains. The Underwood load would be a good option for a non-handloader, as would the significantly more expensive Buffalo Bore 220 grain load if for some reason Underwood can't be had.
Quote from: MadMac on April 08 2013 09:21:45 AM MDTRedline, thanks for the answer. I have a 22 upper for the Witness and will probably then move on to a 9mm then when I'm comfortable and then a lite 10 then howitzer 10. Like I said in my OP, I'm a newbie so I need to be broken in easy like and don't have the means to just shoot high end carry quality ammo! Thanks also for the links; very helpful!
MadMac
You bet.
MCQUADE makes a great point saying;
Don't overestimate the recoil before you've tried it, especially in an all steel gun. There's a lot of truth to that. I'm not saying there isn't going to be some recoil, but it isn't what most would have you believe. And those that I refer to as
most commonly haven't ever owned, shot, or been around anything 10mm Auto to even begin to be able to pass any comprehensive judgement.
I'm not saying don't take you time working up the way you feel is right for you, I'm just saying.
I really do not notice much recoil difference between my .45, my 10mm's, or my 357 SIG. About the only difference is when the peak appears.
In general I agree with Gandog, but the 357 sigs I have shot I thought were much worse.
Comparing a friends Springfield Loaded and my Para one after the other at the range, I can't tell much difference.
I couldn't even tell you if I was shooting 357 SIG's or 40 Cal S&W if you loaded my SIG P-229 with one or the other and didn't tell me which one I was firing. Felt recoil about the same, they both hit at the same POA at my usual target distance, what's not to like? I mean at the time I paid $140 for the .357 SIG barrel, the gun came with the .40 barrel. It's like owning a second SIG you only paid $140 for.
Well, I'm off to the range tomorrow for my first time shooting this thing. I have to say that I love how this Witness feels and how well balanced it is. I got the 22 upper and I just got the Prvi Partisan ammo so I can't wait. I did just order a bunch of Underwood 180gr. TMJ and will shoot that later. I'm assuming that this will be a hotter load at 1,300 FPS. True? Damn I'm pumped to start killing some paper!
If you enjoy your Witness 1/2 as much as I enjoy mine, you may have to budget for more ammo! I appreciate your excitement--I have some range time scheduled for tomorrow and I know how exciting it is to have a chance to enjoy a new toy, try new loads, aim for new goals or continue aiming for old ones. Have fun, that's the thing!
I tried a box of the Prvi Partisan 180 grain ammo, it shot relatively well but the velocity was more like a 40S&W than a 10mm, somewhere around 950 fps or so, not what I had in mind. I don't shoot screaming-hot loads out of my Witness, but I think 90-95% of what's possible is a good place to be. I have six of the Witnesses, and think they're the Bees Knees!
Thanks PapaJohn, that's pretty much the sort of comment I was looking for. I have since bought a bunch of underwood and then some PDX ammo to go along with one box of doubletap 200gr.
Quote from: REDLINE on April 07 2013 06:33:11 PM MDT
Welcome to the forum!
If Grizzlys or bigger I would personally suggest Underwood's 220 Grain Hard Cast Flat Nose in 10mm
I'm sorry, but if there's Grizzlys about I want my .454 Casull! Black bear, 10mm should be good.
Only black bear in my parts, thank god!
Don't forget PBR Ammo, especially if you are more West for savings on shipping. Their 10mm would be #2 behind Underwood but right now they don't offer a hardcast (we can work on that). A good 200gr TMJ goes a long way in wood and would be my next choice! Today they posted 10mm will be in stock mid-May.
Let me make this easy on the ammo choices.In 10mm you basically have 4 different power levels.
1.Prvi is considered on the extreme light power end. Somewhere between 800-1000fps ansd their HP bullent is junk.
2.Next in line would be what I call large factory made ammo. Remington,Federal,and a couple more of the foreign makers. They will be low power from 1025-1150FPS.
3.Now we get into the medium to full power loads.I would say Buffalo Bore,some Underwood, The new Nugent load are a few.These are 1200-1350fps.
4.Now we get to the nuclear fullpower load for Grizzly country. The Underwood loads are mostly all nuclear and if they say 1500fps it is that or more.A couple of the Buffalo Bore loads are close.These run from 135gr at 1600fps to the 220 HC at 1250fps.There are a bunch in between. Go to the ammo page a look at the spread sheet on the ammo. It will show you high to low and then you can pick out what you need. I carry my G20 in elk and Griz country and I carry 16 of the Underwood Hard Cast bullets for that endavor.In my baby G29 I use for pocket carry or home protection I use 6 Buffalo Bore 155gr All Copper HP followed by 5 Underwood Hardcast.Reason for that is I figure if I miss in the first 6 shots they should be behind cover and the Hard cast will shoot thru that. The 10mm is a great and versital caliber. Balck bear with a 10mm I do not feel under gunned. With Griz even with 16 HC in the G20 I still feel a little underpowered. I have seen a lot of Grizzly kills and wounded bears and let me tell you anything that can take a 375 or 416 and keep coming worries me at close range with any handgun. My friends that guide for bears all carry 454 or up but they also all carry 375 rifles and up. 375 being the #1 choice because recoil is not bad and they can get back on for another shot. The Prvi you bought can be you training ammo as it is about a lite a load in 10mm you are going to buy from a factory. They advertise 1025 but chronographed by someone on here they shoed to be about 800-850. Very weak. So punch your holes and lear you gun with them. For all other uses I would buy Underwood. Some on hear love it some hate it. Remember it is a full power load and with that come the danger if you gun has a flaw of a Ka Boom, but most of us who have shot a lot of it are still here.I do not know about the Witness but there are plenty on here that do. I am the Glock guy.If my plastic gun can take it you steel gun should take it. Good luck and you are gonna love this site.
Quote from: gandog56 on April 30 2013 09:11:21 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on April 07 2013 06:33:11 PM MDT
Welcome to the forum!
If Grizzlys or bigger I would personally suggest Underwood's 220 Grain Hard Cast Flat Nose in 10mm
I'm sorry, but if there's Grizzlys about I want my .454 Casull! Black bear, 10mm should be good.
Don't be sorry. Not everyone has a 454 Casull and 10mm at its best has a chance of being far better than pocket knives, sharp sticks, and hand thrown pebbles.
Redline:
If I hunt with a friend I just carry a .22. I want it just accurate enought to hobble him and make him bleed just enough so I can out run him. If Im by myself I want 16 of those HC for the old G20 with an extra clip just in case I might need one for myself.
MadMac:
Intercooler was right. I forgot and left out PBR. RThey make good ammo and it is loaded to full 10mm power. Bottom line is if you want full power you have to get it from the smaller makers. If you want just a high power 40SW then you get that from Federal,Remington. Winchester Silver Tips are a little hotter. Here is what is funny. The all mighty Black Talon banned forever by our great politicans was run thru the crono at 925-950. It is what people refer to as FBI Lite ammo. The weakest of the weak. Good bullet with a terrible load. But now there are a lot of good bullets to choose from depending on what you are doing with your gun that day.Mine is always doing something or 1 of the 3 is anyway. Its like the American Express Card. Never leave home without it.
MadMac, I just found my notes, the PRVI Partisan stuff averaged a feeble 870 fps from my 4.5" Witness. Really anemic stuff. The fired brass looks like it might last awhile, but I only use it for plinking loads. A lot of people say the PRVI loads shoot well in their guns, particularly the military rifle-caliber loads, but I have never had what I'd call good results with any of it. It goes bang, but that's about the kindest thing I can say about it.
I haven't shot the PRVI 10mm stuff. I have a couple hundred rounds of PRVI in 7.62X54R. It shoots just fine, though I didn't really buy it to shoot. Loaded PRVI 7.62X54R is the cheapest way I have found to acquire boxer primed brass for that caliber. The PRVI stuff comes in about $0.80 a round. Empty brass runs about $1.50 a round. As an added bonus I have to unload the PRVI stuff before I can load it.
Quote from: REDLINE on May 01 2013 12:58:40 PM MDT
Don't be sorry. Not everyone has a 454 Casull and 10mm at its best has a chance of being far better than pocket knives, sharp sticks, and hand thrown pebbles.
Yeah, but I DO have the choice....and it's STILL .454 Casull. Yeah 10mm better than a stick or rock, but if I have to shoot a grizzly, I want to be SURE he/she feels it!