10mm-Auto

Good evening guys.  This is my first post here, and while I'm new to the forum, I'm not completely lost around guns or ammo either. 

But, I have a few questions that I'm wanting settled in my mind since I have no experience hunting with 10mm and I'm leaning on your experience(s).

I chose to get a 16" carbine for a few reasons, but the biggest being that I can't find a 357 lever action around here at a decent price.  I have hunted with 357 in both 6" revolver and 16" single shot, but I was wanting this 10mm carbine because it's semiauto and has the capability to hold 10 rounds (per my max hunting regs).

And I know the carbine loaded with slower burning powders can squeeze an extra few hundred fps out of the numbers that a 5" barrled handgun can do.

I would mostly be hunting whitetail and maybe some wild hog.  My shot distances are typically less than 70 yards.  And often half of that.

I live in the Appalachian mountains so a lot of hills and undergrowth and brush.   I hunt from a blind or a stand or am not against a stalk either if I have to but generally a blind or tree stand.

For times I'm not hunting but camping, we have a lot of 400-600lb bear.  Coyotes.  Big cats and starting to see and hear a few wolves too. 

There are some elk as well, but I doubt I'd even consider a pistol cal for elk.  But, I'll throw that out there anyway.

I'm wondering whether to just mainly stick with hardcast from 180-200 gr. (unless a 220 is worth the extra squeeze?)

Even for whitetail hunting, I prefer a complete pass through so if I have to track one, makes it easier.  I've tracked and lost a deer where I believe the entrance wound sealed up and bled out in the chest cavity before, and while I'm sure a fmj or soft HP will kill a deer, I'm somewhat doubtful a HP @ 60 yards would get a double lung pass through.  I may be wrong, because I'm completely new and ignorant to what it'll do and what it won't, but I have shot a few with 158 gr 357 soft point HP's that I found the bullet just under the hide on the far side so I am skeptical that the 10mm would be much different.

So, if I'm wrong, I'm interested in learning now while I'm waiting on some of the parts to build it.

Another reason for just shooting hardcast (probably powder coated hardcast to try to keep the leading down a little) would be because I could just zero my gun and stick with whatever load I am able to come up with that I like.

I'd likely just shoot jacketed 180's for plinking and playing around with.

I'll be asking more in the reloading section about that, but was curious whether to start off with round nose hardcast, wadcutter or flat point to get the best penetration.

Thanks in advance for the suggestions and advice.

For penetration I would choose a 180 or 200 grain WFN or SWC design.  I would stuff the case full of AA#9 and crimp the hell out of it.  I have personally tested a 200 grain WFN at 1200 fps through eleven gallon milk jugs and it kept going.  It was eleven jugs as that is all I could fit front to back on a 6' table.

I would cast the bullets out of air cooled wheel weight mixed about 50/50 with pure lead to bring the hardness down some.  This will allow some natural expansion of the bullet.  I would be shooting for a BHN of 9.5-10 if you have a way to test such things.  Commercial hardcast bullets will be too hard IMHO.

Edit to add...If best velocity from a 16" is your goal, stick with 180 grain.  You aren't going to get much velocity gain from the extra 10" when using 200 grain bullets - maybe 50 fps.  Too little usable starting case capacity with a 200 grain bullet.  A 180 will gain about 250 fps in those 10".

Thank you very much for the reply.  That is very useful info, and makes perfect sense, from a reloading standpoint.  That extra 20 gr of lead will eat up some of the room for powder, with minimum gain in ft lb on target.

I was also thinking a flat tip or wadcutter would likely be able to dig deeper into the target as well.  I notice that the majority of 40 cal are flat tip as well.

So, again, thank you for the reply.

I'll start out with 175 or 180.  I have a bunch of wheel weight ingots, but no .401" mold at the moment.  So, I'll probably get a mix of commercial cast boolets to load up to make sure it'll feed the wadcutters first before buying a mold.  I'm seeing some down as little as $12/100 which would be a decent place to start.

Finding new brass is a problem at the moment.  Seeing some once fired listed, but once fired out of what??  I'm a little nervous about that for this caliber to be honest.  I have a ton of once fired for other calibers, but I don't want to pay for 100 piece of brass and only get to use 65 of them because of bulges either.

Hey John, Unless Starline has them available, check with Dillon Precision. If they are out of stock, you can still order them now, getting them on their next shipment for something like $21.00 per 100


https://www.dillonprecision.com/starline-brass-10mm_8_109_25361.html

Yeah, starline (and everyone else that I would normally buy reloading stuff) is showing out of stock.

Didn't think to check at dillon website, but I will.  Thanks.

OOS @ dillon too.

I'd even settle for prvi or armscor or even winchester if I could find some.

Good evening guys.  I hope all is well with y'all.

I was able to shoot the gun for the first time today and am pretty excited about it.

I was getting a little over 1400 fps with 180 gr and my best loads with 155 gr was over 1750 fps average.

So, that has me wondering a lot.

I started out thinking to use the heaviest loads that I could until you guys mentioned I could do better with 180's over 200 and 220's and after the explanation(s), made perfect sense. 

But, now after seeing that the 155 gr pills have over 1070 ft lbs of energy, which was 200+ ft lbs more than 180 gr,   is there a reason that with a hard cast bullet with the 155 couldn't be a show stopper for whitetail with that loading?

That's even just a smidge faster than 158gr 357 magnums in a 16" barrel.  And they've always done well.

I think I'd prefer to avoid expanding bullets and lean towards a complete pass through for deer.

So, I'm leaning on any of your experiences and thoughts.

Thanks again, in advance.

I?ve been hunting with a 16? carbine for a few years on Texas hogs.  My first setup used 180gr XTP bullets at 1505 fps.   They will keel!
As of late, I?ve been casting my own and use a 175 gr TC which is powder coated and right at 179gr.   They are 1600 fps.   They, too will keel!

My longest shot was @120 yards with red dot sight on a boar hog shot top of the shoulder using the lead boolit.  He was @ 150 lbs.  Dropped in his tracks.

Thank each of you for your reply.

Rvrrat14, If you don't mind me asking, what mold and load data are you using for the cast 170's?

That sounds like a winning combination.

Don?t be scared to use an expanding bullet if well constructed. I?ve used 200 grain XTP bullets in my Glock 20 long slide and have pass throughs. I?ve also used 220 grain hard cast and of course had pass through. The difference is the XTP produced a better blood trail.


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Thank you very much.  That is reassuring and does correlate with much of what I have been reading.

I've seen a lot of videos, which is where most of what little I know about 10mm comes from, but I'm learning a lot here too. 

I truly appreciate first hand experience.

I've hunted a lot, and the only deer I ever lost was with an expanding bullet and I only found 4 drops of blood where it looked like it stumbled and landed because the entrance wound sealed up and there was no exit.  So, needless to say, that left a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer not to repeat.

I'm sure the deer died from the way he was moving in the last place I saw it and I'm 100% positive it was a good shot.  But, once it crossed the property boundary, there was no hope in recovering it because that's where the states largest animal preserve is.

So, needless to say, I don't want a repeat of that because it made me sick to my stomach to shoot something and not put it down quickly or humanely.

So, that's why, if I use a pistol caliber, I want it to do it's job. 

I still own a 357 6" revolver and a 16" single shot, which has done pretty good when I was growing up and from what I can tell, the 40 is at least as good or even maybe better in some respects.

Owned a 44 dragoon once and it would've done well too, but was just too heavy to carry all the time for what it was so I didn't keep it long enough to hunt with it.

So, that's pretty much my only experience in using a pistol caliber for deer hunting is with 357's mainly and what initially got me looking at the 40 carbines.

Truth be told, the last 2 or 3 deer I have taken, were with a crossbow and I've not had one run but maybe 20 yards at the most before piling up.

So, that's where most of my concern comes from about using an expanding bullet that doesn't even make it through to the other side on a close shot, just doesn't do a lot to instill a lot of confidence for me and where my main hold up is.

Hey John, Most of my whitetail hunting with a 10 mm has been from a ground blind, and have been relatively close. I would like to try my Hi Point 1095TS 10mm Carbine, and would give me the option for a longer shot. I have been pretty impressed with the High Point, considering how inexpensive it was, and now with the Holosun optic, it could be a formidable deer hunting weapon

I agree.  And my big draw towards a carbine.

I've been considering one of the VISM solar powered red dots for this gun.  I've seen them listed around $100.

I have an older tasco solar power red dots on my crossbow and soon as it cracks day (barely), the dot illuminates.  No worry of the optic failing because the battery is dead (which would ruin a hunting trip). The only time you need batteries is at night if you were hog hunting or something.

I'm a slow bloomer when it comes to electronic sights on my hunting guns.  I have always used irons or low powered 1-5x traditional hunting scopes.  Most of my defensive guns also have low powered magnification as well.

But, the solar powered red dot has grown on me enough that I believe I want another now. 

The tasco's are discontinued and were really only meant for 22's with a dovetail mount, but I was able to get a dovetail/picatinny adapter and have used it the last 2 seasons on the crossbow with good success.  It's held zero and just flat out works.

I generally hunt out of a ground blind or very occasionally a tree stand.  My shots are pretty close ~50 yards or often less.  And why I started down the 10mm rabbit hole.

Quote from: John A. on April 09 2022 07:19:43 AM MDT
Thank each of you for your reply.

Rvrrat14, If you don't mind me asking, what mold and load data are you using for the cast 170's?

That sounds like a winning combination.

Lee 401-175-TC / 6 cavity.  Bullets are Powder Coated. 
I worked up the load using 1.245? COAL and #9 powder.   
Loads are safe in my pistol and carbine. Work all loads up. 
These are within SAAMI per Accurate Load Data.
It liked the warmer ones best. 
12.4, 12.7, 13.0, 13.3, 13.6.   

On a hog, POI is CNS for a drop dead shot with little to no trailing. 

Quote from: John A. on April 09 2022 09:42:44 AM MDT
Thank you very much.  That is reassuring and does correlate with much of what I have been reading.

I've seen a lot of videos, which is where most of what little I know about 10mm comes from, but I'm learning a lot here too. 

I truly appreciate first hand experience.

I've hunted a lot, and the only deer I ever lost was with an expanding bullet and I only found 4 drops of blood where it looked like it stumbled and landed because the entrance wound sealed up and there was no exit.  So, needless to say, that left a bad taste in my mouth that I prefer not to repeat.

I'm sure the deer died from the way he was moving in the last place I saw it and I'm 100% positive it was a good shot.  But, once it crossed the property boundary, there was no hope in recovering it because that's where the states largest animal preserve is.

So, needless to say, I don't want a repeat of that because it made me sick to my stomach to shoot something and not put it down quickly or humanely.

So, that's why, if I use a pistol caliber, I want it to do it's job. 

I still own a 357 6" revolver and a 16" single shot, which has done pretty good when I was growing up and from what I can tell, the 40 is at least as good or even maybe better in some respects.

Owned a 44 dragoon once and it would've done well too, but was just too heavy to carry all the time for what it was so I didn't keep it long enough to hunt with it.

So, that's pretty much my only experience in using a pistol caliber for deer hunting is with 357's mainly and what initially got me looking at the 40 carbines.

Truth be told, the last 2 or 3 deer I have taken, were with a crossbow and I've not had one run but maybe 20 yards at the most before piling up.

So, that's where most of my concern comes from about using an expanding bullet that doesn't even make it through to the other side on a close shot, just doesn't do a lot to instill a lot of confidence for me and where my main hold up is.

Swift also recently introduced 180 and 200 grain A-Frame bullets which should do very well.


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Quote from: John A. on April 09 2022 11:10:10 AM MDT
I agree.  And my big draw towards a carbine.

I've been considering one of the VISM solar powered red dots for this gun.  I've seen them listed around $100.

I have an older tasco solar power red dots on my crossbow and soon as it cracks day (barely), the dot illuminates.  No worry of the optic failing because the battery is dead (which would ruin a hunting trip). The only time you need batteries is at night if you were hog hunting or something.

I'm a slow bloomer when it comes to electronic sights on my hunting guns.  I have always used irons or low powered 1-5x traditional hunting scopes.  Most of my defensive guns also have low powered magnification as well.

But, the solar powered red dot has grown on me enough that I believe I want another now. 

The tasco's are discontinued and were really only meant for 22's with a dovetail mount, but I was able to get a dovetail/picatinny adapter and have used it the last 2 seasons on the crossbow with good success.  It's held zero and just flat out works.

I generally hunt out of a ground blind or very occasionally a tree stand.  My shots are pretty close ~50 yards or often less.  And why I started down the 10mm rabbit hole.

Another very good option is the Trijicon RMR reflex sights that use fiber optics and tritium. No batteries or solar power necessary.


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Yeah, triji's are nice.  But a bit over budget for a brush beater.  It would cost more than the entire gun build.

For what it?s worth, I use a Sig Romeo 5 red dot on my MechTech.   Just killed a hog at 120 yards last weekend.   I also use a monocular mounted behind it for night work.

Quote from: Rvrrat14 on April 11 2022 06:52:40 PM MDT
For what it?s worth, I use a Sig Romeo 5 red dot on my MechTech.   Just killed a hog at 120 yards last weekend.   I also use a monocular mounted behind it for night work.

I had glanced over the sig romeo5 and was leaning towards a vism with solar panel, but after seeing the torture test that alabama arsenal and was pretty impressed that it survived.  Especially the #7 shot blast from about 10 yards away.  That's a lot worse than anything I think I would be subjecting it to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuq_N129SAI

So, unless something changes between now and I get the extra $ to buy it, that's probably the one that I'm probably going to go with.  Found one new for $89 shipped, so definately in the budget.

Am curious what kind of mount and monocular you're using.  I have a few different NV setups, but always willing to look at something new.

Quote from: John A. on April 12 2022 05:53:11 PM MDT

Quote from: Rvrrat14 on April 11 2022 06:52:40 PM MDT
For what it?s worth, I use a Sig Romeo 5 red dot on my MechTech.   Just killed a hog at 120 yards last weekend.   I also use a monocular mounted behind it for night work.

I had glanced over the sig romeo5 and was leaning towards a vism with solar panel, but after seeing the torture test that alabama arsenal and was pretty impressed that it survived.  Especially the #7 shot blast from about 10 yards away.  That's a lot worse than anything I think I would be subjecting it to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuq_N129SAI

So, unless something changes between now and I get the extra $ to buy it, that's probably the one that I'm probably going to go with.  Found one new for $89 shipped, so definately in the budget.

Am curious what kind of mount and monocular you're using.  I have a few different NV setups, but always willing to look at something new.

It?s a Bushnell Equinox and it came with a rail mount.  Don?t think they have it anymore. 

I know the one you're referring to.

I have an old bushnell IR that uses two AA batteries.  Which at the time, was great not having some weird battery to have to keep in stock.

I never had the bushnell NV though.  Only the IR that i used with one of my russian import gen1's, which I no longer have now either.

I ended up buying a sig romeo5 from ebay, but turns out, it's a counterfeit knockoff.

Just my luck. ???  Disputed it with paypal already though but they said could take up to 2 weeks for some reason.

Sadly, in looking at the auction, they had said they sold 24 of them already.  Some with + feedback, but for $100+, I'm not accepting a counterfeit regardless of how close they are to the originals.  If I buy a sig sauer romeo5, that's what I expect to get.  Not a frig sour.

Once I get the refund, I'll just get the vism solar dot that I was considering at first.  That way I won't have to worry about counterfeits  and thieves.  I don't think that kind of optic has a high enough following for that.

The larger grip I wanted to use has arrived.  Another mag.  Only thing I'm waiting on now is the refund so I can get a different red dot. Am waiting on a muzzle mount attachment so I can put the suppressor on it.  That will probably be here late this week.

I know using supersonic ammo, isn't going to be as quiet as a good subsonic 9mm or 38 special or what-not, but I think it will at least be pleasant enough to shoot while plinking and  hunting and not go deaf doing it.

My Sig Juliet 4 is coming today or tomorrow, and it'll be w/ a red dot I've already got on and thus, ready to hunt. How far out can I expect to hit a deer or boar with my CMMG Banshee MK10 10mm and those optics?

I don't know.  That depends on a lot of things.  But, mostly you and your skill (or lack thereof).  That's not being smart alecky--you may be the best shot in the world--I don't know--but there's only one way to find out.

Start at 25 yards, shoot at a paper plate.  Back up to 50 yards.  Shoot another paper plate.  And keep progressing rearward in 25 yard intervals until you can find your personal limit and where you're comfortable with.

Same process as I use for patterning shotguns.  Though, I don't do that at 25 yard intervals.  I start at 25 yards and then move backwards 5 or 10 yards at a time until I notice a significant decrease in pellets on the plate for shotgun shell and choke patterning.

Myself, I'm either lucky or cursed at the distances that I can deer hunt.  It's typically well within 75 yard shots and the 10mm can do that no problem. 

But, you also wouldn't want to shoot at 800 yards in the rocky mountains from ridgetop to ridgetop like some people can do with rifles.  You'll quickly get into stuff that the bullet was never designed to do.   But this is the joy of learning a new gun.  You get to spend some time with it and find out your personal limits with it.

Sorry that my answer is as clear as mud, and again, I wasn't putting you or the gun down.  It's just that there's no real way for anyone to answer that but you and sending lead downrange.  So, that's my blunt but honest answer.