Please leave 10MM Alone PLEASE
10MM has come a long way from the days of the Bren Ten. I would even say the past 5 years or so it has seen a strong resurgence. Almost every firearms manufacture is making a 10MM firearm now in 2022. 10MM is my second most favorite cartridge, it can serve a wide spectrum of use cases and for the reloader be loaded from mild to wild.
WHY ARE THEY MESSING WITH PERFECTION?
In a recent trend we have seen ammo manufacturers developing new cartridges which is very exciting. On the flip side of the coin they are also starting to tinker with existing cartridges. With the development of clean cartridges the first to be neutered was the 45ACP switching from large pistol primer to small pistol primer. What has not been explained at least within my research is what exactly makes small pistol primers cleaner. It is my understanding it is the same mixture of materials. Is it just as simple as there is LESS of it in a small pistol primer than there is a large pistol primer? Leave a comment below and let me know your take on this, but I digress. 45ACP was not enough for the first time I started hearing about small pistol primers in 10MM also. I literally convinced myself that this was not true and that I was going to ignore UNTIL. I walked into the local shop and found Federal American Eagle loaded with small pistol primers. Interesting enough nothing on the box indicated these were classified as ?clean loads?. I quickly put those boxes back on the shelf as if it were vudoo in a can or a live rattle snake. So quick that the gentlemen next to me asked if everything was ok and I found myself in a 40minute conversation explaining why I was purchasing the Remington Green and White box 10MM. By the way I know many would say this factory ammo is high end 40S&W loaded ammo anyway. True though I am always looking out for 10MM ammo when the cash is right to add to my 10MM Load Depot the largest 10MM database on the internet.
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Let me know what you think oh yeah reply here if you are for leaving perfection ALONE tell the manufacturers we like what we have lol.
Thanks, unless I?m missing something, why would the ammo manufacturers do this in the first place. Just seems very odd
Supposedly cleaner?
I just noticed an additional item. The LPP produces less extreme spread and lower standard deviation in both the Colt and Cimarron
I heard that there are small pistol primers that contain a different environmentally friendly compound. maybe those are the ones labeled "cleaner"?
So unless it?s way way cleaner using SPP, which is hard to believe that it could be, the negative aspects will likely out weigh anything else, not to mention, the whole thing seems a little fishy
Blaster has a good point
I wish they would have left well enough alone. SP .45 is the bane of my reloading world
I picked up 10mm range brass about a year ago that were Federal and also SPP.
Is Federal the only company using SPP in 10mm?
Winchester Super Clean ammo states lead free, including the primer so the compound is totally different than a traditional Lead styphnate based primer.
Question is are they killing off 10MM? We all say it is nothing but 40S&W the way they load them. Now they will take those same loads and just swap to small pistol primer and by my results equals even lesser velocity.
Awesome Ranger and testing results! Thanks for posting!
Thank you for interesting work. I load the small pocket brass for field use because I hope I lose the stupid things
Only thing to expand on here that I would like to see isn't a direct 1 to 1 coralation between SPP and LPP and all else being equal. But what is the max load for a SPP Be-86 load and what is the max for a LPP BE-5 load. You are probably able to add more powder to the SPP load and possibly make up that difference in velocity loss when you know you are using a small brisance flame primer to begin with. But will it maintain the same accuracy, etc? I think this needs to be vetted out before we lable the SPP in 10mm the work of the devil.
The reason I would like to see this is based on my experience in my past hobbies which was compting in 600 & 1000yd benchrest shooting for many years. I had a 300 Win Mag Sendero that I was shooting and it shot so well with my hunting load that I decided to take my complete factory rifle and see what it would do at 1000yds for kicks and grins.
First target out was 14" 5 shot group but the group was only 4-6" wide and the 14" was all up and down. The load I was using was Fed215 (LRM), 72gr R22, Win Brass, 10gr Nosler BT and seated to just touch the lands. This load was my hunting rounds so they were FL sized in Reading Type S dies using a .336 button. So I knew I had to tune out the up/down which is typical for long range loads. FYI: This load would cut holes at 100yds shooting 5 shot groups. The day I sold this rifle I shot two back to back 5 shot groups approx 10min apart. First one was .520" and second group was .540". The guy didn't believe me when i told him it was a 1/2 MOA gun. Cash money on the spot when he saw those 2 groups.
Back to the topic at hand: So I went back and started tuning. I dropped back to a Fed210 primer and started bumping the load up and ended up shooting 75gr R22 using the Fed210 primer and 100yd groups were back shooting ragged holes again and velocity was right near the 3020fps I was getting with the 72gr load using Fed215.
The last group I fired in competition using that new load was 7.4" 5 shot group and a 47 out of 50 score. I was very happy using a factory gun, Leupold 4-12AO scope, and hunting bullets.
I have done this when tuning other rifles also, so I have to wonder if using this same thought process, what will a SPP in 10mm give us? Maybe the SPP is a blessing in disguise, or we run out of case volume and you can't get enough powder in there to make up the difference. Or the accuracy go to hell in a handbasket. But I think it worth pursuing.
I've got it on my to-do list. But we got snow flurries today in NC so not the best weather for load testing right now. And I dodn't think I have any SPP cases in my possession.
Just my loose thoughts,
Steve
I noticed the other day that the listed velocity for federal American Eagle 10mm is only 30fps faster than 40S&W. 🧐
Quote from: mr.revolverguy on December 04 2022 12:35:28 PM MST10MM is my second most favorite cartridge,
Curious; what's your favorite cartridge, mr.revolverguy?
Thank you for posting your results.
If I may weigh in, I have some experience on this topic starting about 30 years ago with the 45 Colt +P. I had several 45 colts but only one Ruger (Bisley) capable of handling the +P loads. I wanted to be able to tell at a glance what pressure level my ammo was loaded to, so I came up with the screwy idea of using trimmed down 454 Casull brass for my 45 Colt +P loads. My brother just gave me several hundred Winchester 454 cases, so I trimmed down some to 45 Colt length and started testing. In my tests, using the Remington 7 1/2 small rifle match primer, (that freedom arms recommends using in the 454) I was getting almost identical velocities compared to the Federal LPP 45 Colt brass.
When the lead free ammo started showing up over a decade ago, it was only available in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp. The magazine articles on the ammo back in the day stated they only developed a small pistol primer for some reason, but the compound they were using had a higher brisance but a lower flame temperature and shorter flame duration compared to the standard lead styphnate primers, leading to misfires. Their solution was "much" larger flash holes and crimped primers. In my tests back in the day, the 45 acp brass could be reloaded without issue. (after removing the primer pocket crimp) The powders I tested showed little to no difference in velocity.
The 9mm and 40 S&W brass was another story. With the higher chamber pressures, primers blowing out of the cases were all to common. I started throwing all that NT large flash hole brass in the scrap bucket.
They must be using a different lead free compound now as I haven't seen any of that large flash hole brass in a while.
I'm looking forward to testing the new SPP 10mm brass. While I can't bring myself to buy any of the ammo to get the brass for testing, I figure it's only a matter of time before I find some at the range. My testing will be limited to small pistol magnum primers and small rifle primers as I feel they will offer the best chance of duplicating the performance of the standard LPP brass.
Jeff
That?s really interesting, Thanks Jeff!
Sorry know this was meant for Mr. Revolverguy. But had to add 2 cents. Mine would have to be a quality 44 mag. revolver. No need to chase brass in the field. I also really like the Ruger 44 Special flattop shoots great with old Skeeter load. I have a 25-5 45 colt Mountain Gun but have never got it to shoot as well as the Flattop.
Glock 20
KKM Barrel
22 pound NDZ spring
Never used Small pistol primers when using full race horse loads in 10mm. I use
WLP all the with 220gr Hardcast Coated
Am I the only one that sees to many small marks on the primers in top pics ??
power spill on to anvil that presses primer in ?
No powder spill some brass tighter than others there for I used more hand pressure to seat them fully. I usually prime on press but for this test I wanted to hand prime.