I waited for them and picked them up with the .357's this week. They should test out the same but with Power Pistol (I think).
Those should be interesting if they are in the 1200 fps range like the other ones with 800X
I can't make myself believe those rounds would meet any safe pressure spec, if they're loaded to 1200 fps with Power Pistol. No way. I blew out a case at 1100 fps with the same bullet weight, but a better bullet that uses less case capacity. Blue Dot, AA9, or 800X, yes, but not Power Pistol.
Yondering, I understand exactly what you are saying. If Intercooler sends one for pull-down documentation, we will see what is being used...
I was amazed :o at the amount of Power Pistol that Buffalo Bore stuffed under the Barnes 155gr TAC-XP yielding near 1500 fps.
It might not be Power Pistol. We shall see real soon!
These ran flawlessly out of the Limited Pro today.
Limited Pro 4.75" 1237, 1231, 1250. Average = 1239.33 FPS/ 750 LBS
I left the old 220 load (800-X/1211 FPS) in the sheet for reference. Maybe I should move it to the discontinued tab? I put Power Pistol for this one until we confirm it is/isn't. It might be LongShot but we shall see soon enough!
Let me get a few photos and measurements on this brass.
The primers for sure look flattened
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1470068_620353591336010_289013722_n.jpg)
Two pieces were .432" and this one was the worst at .437" where the ramp bulge is
(https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1475926_620355161335853_19803371_n.jpg)
;D That's gonna leave a mark! ;D
Not good for the brass! :(
that one goes in the scrap heap! :o
You might be correct on that one. I wonder how the Glocks are going to fair with this load? These may be a one and done.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 24 2013 08:06:02 AM MST
You might be correct on that one. I wonder how the Glocks are going to fair with this load? These may be a one and done.
I figure my LW 5.15" barrel and chamber would do fine with that load. Lord knows I've blown the wings off Angles with XTP's from 155gn to 200gn. And the good Lord knows I've went nuke with the worthless 135gn Noslers. Fun to shoot. But a 125gn full house .357 mag shines against that worthless 135gn bullet in 10mm.
I am really disappointed to see that hogs belly in the brass. :( I linked up one of my Co-Workers that shoots a EAA Match something or other Witness 10mm. A really sweat pistol. And he fell out looking at that bulge. He could not believe his eyes. He has sprung up his Witness. And loves shooting bad ass 155 and 180gn loads out of it.
Would a Witness Hunter produce this sorry result?
blastfact, it is good to see you here.
How is the support on that Lonewolf 5.15" barrel? I was thinking of picking one up.
I will put one through my Hunter next time out because I'm curious. It was only this one piece out of the three which showed the feed ramp bulge.
We need some pics of those Witness barrels for chamber support!
Search here for "support" and they will show up.
Meh....I got nuthin' I was looking for. And half the posts that showed up were mine when I was discussing the topic with you. :-\
Some concerns being expressed in the Glock platform:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1514043
Thanks for reposting this, IC.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/tjf76/image_zpsad2bd5dc.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tjf76/media/image_zpsad2bd5dc.jpg.html)
Here is a photo of the 5 popped primers and the smile. Got my caliper out and measured from left to right;
.440, .437, .442, .438, .441
These were fired from a G20 4th Gen with 4.6" Lone Wolf barrel.
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 06:46:57 AM MST
Here is a photo of the 5 popped primers and the smile. Got my caliper out and measured from left to right;
.440, .437, .442, .438, .441
These were fired from a G20 4th Gen with 4.6" Lone Wolf barrel.
They are all smiled and I'm a fraid-e-cat and wouldn't try another. They are hot, too hot in my opinion, unless your barrel was leading or had other issues.
Greg
I did clean the barrel when I got home and didn't feel it was real dirty. I hope it is my wolf barrel and not the ammo. Underwood is very important to us non reloading 10 mm shooters.
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 07:16:17 AM MST
I did clean the barrel when I got home and didn't feel it was real dirty. I hope it is my wolf barrel and not the ammo. Underwood is very important to us non reloading 10 mm shooters.
The UW 200 and 220 grain loadings have been on the hot side. The Underwood 165 grain tmj has been great in my stock Glock.
I was shooting buffalo bore 220 before I found the same loading (220gr) loaded by UW. This is my woods carry gun and I like running it hot and heavy but this load is a little much.
How was the Buffalo Bore?
I have a Lone Wolf 5.15 inch barrel coming, and was going to use the Underwood. After this I think I will go with Buffalo Bore hardcast.
Factory barrel with BB ammo did give me smiles but didn't get any with the lone wolf barrel.
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 07:46:23 AM MST
Factory barrel with BB ammo did give me smiles but didn't get any with the lone wolf barrel.
Thanks..
I did get that one which measured .437". In there I alluded to what would be seen in a Glock and it appears that might be the case. Your Lone Wolf barrel might be a little loose too. If you get a chance and have some Underwood 180gr TMJ 180's, shoot some through there and post the measurements. We have enough measurements here with those to compare. From what I can recall .440" is the DANGER ZONE! You could also pull the bullet and weigh the powder to see how it compares to our findings. FWIW, I told Kevin my thoughts they need scaled back a little the very next day.
Would I be better of with the factory barrel? I don't reload but thought the lone wolf barrel would help with my smiles.
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 08:12:17 AM MST
Would I be better of with the factory barrel? I don't reload but thought the lone wolf barrel would help with my smiles.
Its kinda like a tube of toothpaste. The pressure has to go somewhere.
There will be more chamber space for that gas to expand into with the stock barrel, so the pressure will be less, but the brass will be stretched more, and the more it stretches, the less integrity it has left.
The lone wolf barrel controls the expansion, limits the volume the gas can fill, and as a result the pressure will be higher. I'm sure there will be more signs of pressure in the primers, but I'm guessing it would be safer overall. Remember, I said guessing!!!
Greg
I am going to call UW in the morning and give home the heads up. Is he a member here?
Not that I am aware of. Call him with your expansion results and offer up the pictures. Were you running a 22lb or heavier spring setup?
Glock is all factory but the barrel
WOW... curious as to the measurement of the barrel and a pull-down.
For me reloads running max listed only hit 434 , after that expansion on the 5 shells, its the scrap pile.
Wonder what rating the stock spring is? With that load I would run the strongest they offer. If they make a 26lb it would be in there. It would be interesting to see what the results are if you swap to the heaviest and fire a couple.
Do they make different options for the gen4 yet or are people using the adapter and the gen3?
I don't know. I'm shocked more Glock owners aren't looking at the DPM or Sprinco systems for their Glocks.
IC, the stock Glock spring is rated at 17 pounds.
MT, to my knowledge you have to use the Gen 3 adaptor in order to get a heavier spring in your Gen 4. There could be something out there now, but if there is I haven't heard of it.
Quote from: Intercooler on December 29 2013 09:46:24 AM MST
I don't know. I'm shocked more Glock owners aren't looking at the DPM or Sprinco systems for their Glocks.
Somebody here tried a Sprinco in their Gen 4 but it didn't help the issues they were having.
17lbs is crazy light for that load.
Any one not running a stock RSA in their Gen4? In all the reading I have done says factory setup is fine, is this not correct?
I know this doesn't answer your question, but I am running a 22 pound captured RSA in my gen 3 for the hot stuff.
It seems some guys are having problems with the Gen 4 RSA and some are not. But not everyone is running stuff as hot as you are.
Quote from: Intercooler on December 29 2013 10:06:49 AM MST
17lbs is crazy light for that load.
question; would to light a spring allow the action to come back to soon = result in smiles??
Take me to RSA school
Would this effect the ammo or are the smiles and popped primes separate problem
On here I posted some information as it relates to Glock striker fired pistols by the ammo makers Buffalo Bore, SwampFox, etc... They are at a disadvantage from the start versus hammer fired pistols. That's their own findings in testing and my observations would agree. I tried my own test using a hammer fired Match with an 11lb spring and an extreme 155gr and it didn't correlate. In my hammer fired 10's I'm just looking to lessen or eliminate the hard slide to frame hit with the heavier spring and that's all.
I am going to send my barrel into lone wolf as well and see what they have to say.
You may want to talk with Mr.Redbull about the Lone Wolf barrels. I think at one point he had a slew of them and sold all! I'm pretty sure he went to KKM barrels.
I looked things over ( stock barrel vs LWB) and lone wolf while it looks to have little more support there is still room for improvement. I think KKM full support barrel should rid me of brass smiles.
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 01:17:26 PM MST
I think KKM full support barrel should rid me of brass smiles.
I think the load has too much pressure and no matter what you do, some problems will remain.
Greg
Quote from: Geeman on December 29 2013 03:06:03 PM MST
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 01:17:26 PM MST
I think KKM full support barrel should rid me of brass smiles.
I think the load has too much pressure and no matter what you do, some problems will remain.
Greg
That's what I think.
MT, you said you had smiles with Buffalo Bore and your stock barrel, but not with your Lonewolf barrel. This tells me the barrel should be okay. Me thinks the ammo is a tad too hot. Even Intercooler acknowledges this, and he is a big Underwood fan. If you do send it back to Lonewolf though I would be curious to know what they have to say.
As far as RSA weights go, some say the heavy weight springs keep the gun locked up longer. I don't now if there is any truth to this or not. I just know that my G20 runs best with the 22 pound RSA when full power ammo is used. The heavier spring keeps the slide from slamming against the polymer frame as hard. I was getting FTE malfunctions with the stock spring. The 22 pound RSA solved the problem.
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 29 2013 03:14:09 PM MST
Quote from: Geeman on December 29 2013 03:06:03 PM MST
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 01:17:26 PM MST
I think KKM full support barrel should rid me of brass smiles.
I think the load has too much pressure and no matter what you do, some problems will remain.
Greg
That's what I think.
MT, you said you had smiles with Buffalo Bore and your stock barrel, but not with your Lonewolf barrel. This tells me the barrel should be okay. Me thinks the ammo is a tad too hot. Even Intercooler acknowledges this, and he is a big Underwood fan. If you do send it back to Lonewolf though I would be curious to know what they have to say.
As far as RSA weights go, some say the heavy weight springs keep the gun locked up longer. I don't now if there is any truth to this or not. I just know that my G20 runs best with the 22 pound RSA when full power ammo is used. The heavier spring keeps the slide from slamming against the polymer frame as hard. I was getting FTE malfunctions with the stock spring. The 22 pound RSA solved the problem.
You are right about the ammo, I was just hoping it wasn't the ammo. As I reflect on the last 3 outings with UW 220gr I feel it's loaded too hot and load is not consistent.
I wonder what the max performance #9 could give with this bullet? It seems to work pretty well with the heavy weights and supposedly can't be loaded too hot due to case capacity.
I chose a 220g grain bullet and a 5% compressed load got just past 1000 fps.
Greg
Quote from: Geeman on December 29 2013 05:03:27 PM MST
I chose a 220g grain bullet and a 5% compressed load got just past 1000 fps.
Greg
I should start reloading, that sounds like a perfect load for me.
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 03:31:20 PM MST
You are right about the ammo, I was just hoping it wasn't the ammo. As I reflect on the last 3 outings with UW 220gr I feel it's loaded too hot and load is not consistent.
I think you'd be foolish to shoot any more of that load, sooner or later one will let go. I like hot loads, but I'd have stopped after the first one, with a huge bulge like that.
Look guys, Underwood made a poor choice in bullets on this one, and is trying to load it to the same velocity that some of us hot handloaders have achieved with more appropriate bullets. It's been obvious to some of us from the start that this would be too hot.
I've used AA9 to push a 220gr cast to 1300+ fps from my longslide (1175-1200 from a stock length), and it's a relatively safe powder choice, but won't work well with Underwood's bullet because it takes up too much powder capacity.
Quote from: Yondering on December 30 2013 12:44:09 PM MST
Quote from: MT10mm on December 29 2013 03:31:20 PM MST
You are right about the ammo, I was just hoping it wasn't the ammo. As I reflect on the last 3 outings with UW 220gr I feel it's loaded too hot and load is not consistent.
I think you'd be foolish to shoot any more of that load, sooner or later one will let go. I like hot loads, but I'd have stopped after the first one, with a huge bulge like that.
Look guys, Underwood made a poor choice in bullets on this one, and is trying to load it to the same velocity that some of us hot handloaders have achieved with more appropriate bullets. It's been obvious to some of us from the start that this would be too hot.
I've used AA9 to push a 220gr cast to 1300+ fps from my longslide (1175-1200 from a stock length), and it's a relatively safe powder choice, but won't work well with Underwood's bullet because it takes up too much powder capacity.
And there you have it.
We should petition Kevin to back his 220 loading down to 1150. Still a full power 10mm, but at a safe pressure level.
I talked with Kevin, nice guy. He and I talked for 30min or so. With the chamber of the lone wolf barrel I have being little tight I advised I thought this ammo I have was loaded little hot. I told him I was sending in the barrel to LW open chamber. If then ammo shows OP signs Kevin would replace the ammo for me,
I am ok with this.
I will swap you out if you choose not to shoot it. Just let me know what you would want in exchange.
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 30 2013 01:24:11 PM MST
We should petition Kevin to back his 220 loading down to 1150. Still a full power 10mm, but at a safe pressure level.
Probably not with the bullet he's using, IMO. It takes up too much powder space. You couldn't get enough AA9 in there for 1150 fps. You can certainly do it with other powders (obviously) but the pressure will still be up there.
Buffalo Bore uses the same 220gr. It's been a while and I don't have powder specs. Does it show pressure?
I looked at the sheet and the BB 220 gave 1100 FPS average. That's pretty short of the 1200 FPS rating BB placed on the box. Kevin's old 800-X loading might have been better for pressure and I wonder if these would be workable scaled back to 1175? They averaged 1239 for me and that's pretty smoking!
the lwd barrel has a tight chamber that lacks support. There is no where for the pressure to flow the brass outward except at the bottom of the case where the barrel lacks support. Hence the smiles on his brass.
Get yourself a full supported barrel like bar-sto, kkm, storm lake.
Note: I have several older lwd 10mm and 40sw barrels that DO have full support but some of the new ones coming out have the feedramps hogged out like a glock but kept the tight chamber (unlike loose glock chamber - which would allow the pressure to flow outward more evenly over the entire surface area of the case)
Kevin is out of the 220's and will back off on the next batch. The LW barrel also supposedly has an issue at the ramp.
Great news! Will try some of the milder loads and see what happens.
My lone wolf bbl seems to have the same lack of support as my Glock factory bbl, and I have had alot of brass look just like the pic posted with bulges, I thought those were considered "Glock Smiles" and normal? I havent had any popped primers.
I am ordering a Lone Wolf barrel. I am considering having them ream the chamber and hand pick a barrel with more support.
What it Sounds like to me is all the newer produced LW barrels do not have full support as they once did. I going to but a KKM barrel or other fully supported barrel. IC and I traded ammo, he now will have the last 29rds of the 220gr UW cast. I bet if we ask nice we could get him to pull one apart to reference charge used. I would have but do not reload and don't have the right tools.
Does the KKM barrel require fitting?
Hopefully it is "drop in."
Edit...I see KKM doesn't offer a tactical length barrel. Too bad..
Barsto is what a gunsmith friend of mine told be to buy but they need to be fitted
LW barrels do have a lot of options but for the price after the additional 30.00 to open the chamber it may not be worth it.
You might be right about that. I like the Tactical length though, so I might give it a try. Buffalo Bore seems to be okay, so if Kevin cuts his load back to 1150 or so I might be good to go. I really can't see needing more than 220 grain hardcast at 1100 or 1150 for my purposes, which are back up as a woods gun while coyote hunting at night.
That will still ruin a bruin's day. 8)
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 01 2014 07:22:41 AM MST
You might be right about that. I like the Tactical length though, so I might give it a try. Buffalo Bore seems to be okay, so if Kevin cuts his load back to 1150 or so I might be good to go. I really can't see needing more than 220 grain hardcast at 1100 or 1150 for my purposes, which are back up as a woods gun while coyote hunting at night.
That will still ruin a bruin's day. 8)
I am going to order the KKM and see how it does. I ordered 3 boxes of UW 200 TMJ for my woods carry till he gets the 220 cast load reduced.
Quote from: MT10mm on January 01 2014 07:29:42 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 01 2014 07:22:41 AM MST
You might be right about that. I like the Tactical length though, so I might give it a try. Buffalo Bore seems to be okay, so if Kevin cuts his load back to 1150 or so I might be good to go. I really can't see needing more than 220 grain hardcast at 1100 or 1150 for my purposes, which are back up as a woods gun while coyote hunting at night.
That will still ruin a bruin's day. 8)
I am going to order the KKM and see how it does. I ordered 3 boxes of UW 200 TMJ for my woods carry till he gets the 220 cast load reduced.
Sounds good! Hopefully you will like the KKM.
Quote from: MT10mm on January 01 2014 06:34:05 AM MST
What it Sounds like to me is all the newer produced LW barrels do not have full support as they once did. I going to but a KKM barrel or other fully supported barrel. IC and I traded ammo, he now will have the last 29rds of the 220gr UW cast. I bet if we ask nice we could get him to pull one apart to reference charge used. I would have but do not reload and don't have the right tools.
IC may send one to me to pull-down, to verify what's being used, but the last two I pulled were the same...
Older Underwood 220gr Hard Cast http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood's-lineup-135155165180220/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood's-lineup-135155165180220/) you have to scrool down some to see the 220 info.
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR800X 8.4 grains Tested Velocity: 1209 fps from the S&W 1006
After the Shot Case Data: expansion measurement's: Diameter 0.4285" primer moderately flat, failed to eject, leaving the brass in the chamber. The expansion was such that it held the brass and the extractor pulled off leaving the casing.
One of the Newest Underwood 220gr Cast WFN http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-cast-wfn-1230-fps-pull-down/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-cast-wfn-1230-fps-pull-down/)
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: LongShot 8.4 grains, haven't shot it yet.
I would suspect yours to be from this newer batch with LongShot powder...
Got my LW bbl about 2 years ago, I was getting FTF with UW 180's until I polished the feed ramp, chamber and finally I took some emery cloth on the top of the bbl where it seemed to be hanging up against the bbl hole in the slide. No problems since, but the lack of support keeps me from buying another LW, looks like I will look into another bbl.
I will send one of the 29 down for a pull-down.
We'll be glad to take a look see! 8)
According to Shadow's chart in this link:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/
The 220 grain loads in the 1200 feet per second range are nuclear level 10mm loads. Those manufacturers offering 220 grain loads at this level should specify for fully supported chambers only (much in the same way the late Mike Willard of Swampfox specified his nuclear loads).
The chart specifies 220 grain loads in the 1150 range as full power, and should be fine in all standard 10mm pistols out there.
I am just using information from the chart provided.
I was happy to hear UW is going to back off a little
It says supported chamber.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-n5GJjpF9Y
http://firearms.fortreg.com/?p=750
Revolver is the only fully supported.
Technically yes, but I know you get the point.
A ramped barrel should get a Semi the proper support. If it's made correctly!
Haha yep!
The thing is, a company like Glock has been making a helluva reliable sidearm for decades. The barrels are throated to be reliable for combat situations, where reliability is of the utmost importance. Then comes along the .40 S&W which is a higher pressure cartridge than 9mm (I know the 10mm came first, but please bear with me), and shooters start to have KB's. There are some reloads involved here, some sloppy loading practices, some ultra throated barrels, etc. Glock realizes the KB issue and begins throating their barrels less in order to offer more support for the cartridges. The ammo companies realize this also (my opinion) and start tailoring their ammo to the specific guns, because we all know that Glocks ride in the holsters of 60% of America's police officers, and the ammo companies want the contracts. Anyway, the barrels get better and the ammo gets better. Have you ever seen a Gen 2 Glock 20 barrel? Google them....they aren't supported much. But back in the early nineties with the Norma level and below 10mm ammo available this didn't matter a whole lot.
Then the .40 S&W surpassed the ten mike mike in popularity (gotta love those female FBI agents), and our beloved cartridge almost dies. Colt revives it with the Delta Elite, and Mike McNett nourishes it with his full power (at the time) ten millimeter ammo. Glock puts out the G20, and the ten is saved for the time being! Then...the full power ammo is fired in the Glock 20 barrels lacking support, and the guns go boom boom. You can search this over on Glocktalk, as there were a few threads on this if Eric didn't purge them out already. So the Gen 3 G20's have much more support than the Gen 2 G20's because Glock did their homework and got it right. My personal G20 is very well supported, as I have yet to get any smiles using Kevin Underwood's ammo (200 XTP, 180 tmj, 165 tmj). But we must remember that as a combat weapon, the number one priority is reliability. Without reliability we lose confidence in our weapons, but more importantly we could die in a combat situation with an unreliable weapon. Don't believe me? I lost a coworker who died with a broken weapon in his hand. These things unfortunately do happen.
So....all this jibberish gets me to my point. Kevin's ammo is awesome and I like it a lot. But there is a trade off between the highest pressures and reliability. In order to make the weapons safe with the highest pressure ammo (Kevin's 200 and 220 grain) we need to ramp up our barrels. When we ramp up our barrels there is a tradeoff. That tradeoff is reduced reliability. Don't believe me? Ask Lone wolf why they started throating their 10mm barrels which now offer less support. We as 10mm shooters want the greatest support when we shoot our guns because we want them to go "bang" and not "boom." This is great for the range when an angry jihadist or desperate drug dealer isn't breathing down our necks. But when we have to fight it out on the street with little or no back up, we need our weapons to operate at 100% reliability. Glock knows this, and designs there barrels with enough support now to accommodate the higher pressure .40 and 10mm ammo, but leaves enough room for reliability. Remember, these guns are meant to be combat weapons and not range queens. Now, is the highest pressure ammo meant to be for range use only? Or do we carry revolvers so we can use it safely and have reliability? I would love to carry Kevin's 220 grain hardcast in the woods with me at night. But, it has to be 100% reliable in my platform. That means there has to be a balance of support, pressure, and velocity. We have to find the right balance if we are going to carry this ammo for defensive purposes.
This topic has been going on at least two forums now, and maybe three. Do we tailor our guns to the high pressure ammo, or do we tailor the ammo to our guns which were built for reliability. Or....if manufacturers want to put out the greatest, hottest product, do they put disclaimers on their boxes? Sort of like the "Not for Delta Elite" disclaimer which is a great idea. Where is the balance? Or is there any balance at all?
I don't know. I just shoot it all ;D
I feel if Kevin backs the 220 down to 1100 or so it will be a good balance of speed and weight
I would like to know one way or the other, if Underwood is sending out his ammo as loaded, for official pressure testing by a certified lab and does it actually meet SAAMI specifications for 10mm?
Based of the data we have seen from Quick Load program, the pressures are off the chart for powders supported by QL program. So we can assume some things are out of whack when we see guns with very high slide speeds, brass being squirted out at the feed ramps.
Does the brass meet the proper internal dimensions and strength for the pressure specs of proof 10mm loads? In other words is the brass partly to blame for the server ballooning and "smiles" that we are seeing?
:-\ ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on January 02 2014 07:35:26 PM MST
I would like to know one way or the other, if Underwood is sending out his ammo as loaded, for official pressure testing by a certified lab and does it actually meet SAAMI specifications for 10mm?
Based of the data we have seen from Quick Load program, the pressures are off the chart for powders supported by QL program. So we can assume some things are out of whack when we see guns with very high slide speeds, brass being squirted out at the feed ramps.
Does the brass meet the proper internal dimensions and strength for the pressure specs of proof 10mm loads? In other words is the brass partly to blame for the server ballooning and "smiles" that we are seeing?
:-\ ???
I don't think they are under SAAMI specs. I don't think they necessarily need to be either, as long as they inform which firearms are capable of handling the load. 45-70 trap door loads and the modern loading of that cartridge are examples.
I sometimes think those nasty pressure peaks shown Quickload must be in error. They are sometimes in excess of anything I run in my high pressure centerfire rifle reloads. The problem is that Quickload predicts the velocity very closely, barrel length to barrel length, which lends credibility to the program's estimates. There are some very hot loads that would have me stepping back down if it were my handload. Pressure signs are there to be respected. Fail to heed a high pressure sign at 50 degrees might mean a trip to the hospital at 85 degrees.
I see a smile, I'm done with that load. I see primers too flat and flowing where they shouldn't, I'm backing down the load. Part of why I like loading my own is the joy of building loads in search of safe and high performance in the same package.
I could be wrong, but these custom ammo makers may be running into the same issues as the rest of us. Components are tough to come by, and constantly changing componets based on availability leads to less than thoroughly vetted loadings.
Greg
UW has the 220 HC back in stock
I saw that.
I have MT10mm's 220's here and plan to run a few Sunday. In the next shipment to The Shadow I will include one for pull-down.
Only 8 decent ones out of 21.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1003066_642159712488731_1586440909_n.jpg)
Quote from: MT10mm on January 09 2014 09:08:23 PM MST
UW has the 220 HC back in stock
I wonder if they are the old stuff or from the adjusted batch, if this was ever done.
Did Kevin ever get back to you when you sent him the Glocktalk thread?
Someone else sent him the link. This has to be the old batch as the new was just released a day or two ago.
It's an old batch and a hot one
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 10 2014 04:19:56 PM MST
Quote from: MT10mm on January 09 2014 09:08:23 PM MST
UW has the 220 HC back in stock
I wonder if they are the old stuff or from the adjusted batch, if this was ever done.
Did Kevin ever get back to you when you sent him the Glocktalk thread?
I sent Kevin the link but have not got a response.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 10 2014 04:10:07 PM MST
Only 8 decent ones out of 21.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1003066_642159712488731_1586440909_n.jpg)
IC, did you shot those from your EAA? Smith? :o ???
Those are MT10mm's he shot out of the Glock with Lone Wolf. I will put a couple through my Limited and Hunter Sunday and post any ugly ones with measurements.
Ok I didn't think your gun was letting that happen, I thing that Glock was unlocking and opening too soon.
Quote from: The_Shadow on January 10 2014 07:20:35 PM MST
Ok I didn't think your gun was letting that happen, I thing that Glock was unlocking and opening too soon.
Stock 17 pound spring?
I was using the stock RSA. I have purchased a lone wolf adapter/ss rod and 22lb spring to try with the UW 200 TMJ
I could be wrong but I just don't think the stock RAS has enough spring tension at lock up to keep it locked up long enough, especially with high impulse ammo like Underwood. However these rounds may actually be too hot for all but the best chambers and guns to handle it. :-\
I switched back to the factory barrel and went to a 22lbs RSA. Going out tomorrow to try out some UW 200TMJ and DT 200cast
Quote from: The_Shadow on January 10 2014 07:20:35 PM MST
Ok I didn't think your gun was letting that happen, I thing that Glock was unlocking and opening too soon.
Regardless whether it was unlocking too soon, any load that blows the primers out is WAY too hot. Early unlocking has nothing to do with that.
Aint no way I'd have kept shooting that in any gun of mine, except maybe one round at a time with no magazine in it (but why bother).
It might be that the picture is tricking me, but the primers on the bad rounds appear flatter than the eight. That would be interesting. I might also be wrong, but I also think I see a smile line in the far right case of the 8 standing.
The load is too hot. If the glock is unlocking early, its doing it VERY consistently, as the cases seem to show the smile in the exact same location, case after case.
The primers popped out when he was shooting a tighter chamber (Lone Wolf), but stayed in with the factory barrel. Its just a pressure thing, too much of it for the gun. The Glock barrel might keep the primer in the case, but might cause a head separation earlier because of stretching the brass more.
Handloading solution would be simple. Just back down a half grain and keep alert for pressure signs. Credit Underwood for trying to stay at max performance, and also credit him for backing this one down just a bit. I'm just glad you didn't fire these on a 95 degree day when the rounds were in the sun for awhile before hand.
Greg
I think you are seeing things correctly. The 8 good ones have a faint line on them, but don't think they have been "smiled".
Quote from: Geeman on January 11 2014 05:32:24 AM MST
It might be that the picture is tricking me, but the primers on the bad rounds appear flatter than the eight. That would be interesting. I might also be wrong, but I also think I see a smile line in the far right case of the 8 standing.
The load is too hot. If the glock is unlocking early, its doing it VERY consistently, as the cases seem to show the smile in the exact same location, case after case.
The primers popped out when he was shooting a tighter chamber (Lone Wolf), but stayed in with the factory barrel. Its just a pressure thing, too much of it for the gun. The Glock barrel might keep the primer in the case, but might cause a head separation earlier because of stretching the brass more.
Handloading solution would be simple. Just back down a half grain and keep alert for pressure signs. Credit Underwood for trying to stay at max performance, and also credit him for backing this one down just a bit. I'm just glad you didn't fire these on a 95 degree day when the rounds were in the sun for awhile before hand.
Greg
ya, me too. I didnt even notice the blown primers till I was searching for my brass. It was a learning lesson for me to be more careful in the future.
Were all of them shot from the same barrel/setup?
Yes , all that I sent you were from lw barrel with factory rsa
Very odd stuff. Those 8 look fairly normal except the flattened primer and ever so slight ramp protusion. To date I have never lost a primer which is shocking but that might possibly be a reflection of a loose area back there allowing too much expansion of the brass. If I took a measurement of the primer pocket I bet it would be oversize compared to one of the pieces with an intact primer. I think the spring for sure didn't help matters and might have prevented a few of those which are real bad. I run nothing but 22lb springs in my 10's except the Hunter which seems to do fine with a 20lb. If a 24lb spring or higher was offered for the 4.75" pistols I would for sure try it! In a Glock where you only have the spring of the striker (correct me if I'm wrong) it would only make sense to run the heaviest functional spring you can.
I have a Glock question since I don't know. Can the striker spring be increased to help with slide velocity/lock-up?
Stock is 5.5lb and Wolff makes a 6lb which doesn't seem like much of an increase. They do list a 24lb recoil spring assembly though.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 11 2014 09:11:01 AM MST
I have a Glock question since I don't know. Can the striker spring be increased to help with slide velocity/lock-up?
That's a good question. Wolff Gunsprings usually makes their standard weight springs slightly more high powered. They run great in my Colt Commanders!
I don't know if the striker spring would help with what you speak of though. The heavy weight RSA's might be a different story.
An excellent guy to ask would be Freakshow10mm from Glocktalk. He built his own Commander with a light weight aluminum frame in 10mm, and from what I understand he has fired tens of thousands of rounds through it. I don't know if he has any experience with Glocks, but he still might know the answer theoretically speaking.
One of the Glock owners with access to a high speed video camera should run a test making these changes as it relates to slide movement/lock-up. Everyone has probably viewed the STI recoil spring video that shows some valid hammer fired information.
Just returned from a small shoot. I shot 2 different types of ammo with complete stock set up glock 20 4th gen. 25 rds of DT 200gr cast & 40rds of UW 200gr TMJ. I had no blown primers and only a few very slight smiles with the UW 200tmj. I had 1 FTF with each but feel it was me with limp wrist. Didn't try the heavier RSA and didn't get a chance to shoot as much as I would have liked to. It's raining and very windy here today.
Do you have a 22lb+ spring setup on order?
I bought the heavy spring about a week ago and did bring it but I didnt get a chance to try it due to the weather today
Some issues may not just be recoil spring related with the Glock setups...have a look at this post; http://greenandbrass.blogspot.com/2011/10/oh-no-broke-glock-sorta.html (http://greenandbrass.blogspot.com/2011/10/oh-no-broke-glock-sorta.html)
The MGSL may not be the answer but info contained in the article may show areas of concern as it relates to Lock Up!
There have been some people that had the Locking blocks break...picture of locking blocks.(http://diygunsmith.com/pictures/Glock/Glock_29_Long_Slide/Modified_Glock_20_Locking_Block.jpg)
Having a close look to see if these items are damaged or not making the correct geometry for positive lock up are things that would be of concern.
That looks to be a cast piece. I wonder what the XD uses?
That piece may actually be MIM (metal injection molding)...
I am going to give it a good cleaning and try again tomorrow
I just had the XD apart for cleaning. Looks totally different!
Took a couple of pictures. I think this is the piece (don't let 4949shooter see me posting Tupperware pictures ;D)
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1017625_642545805783455_1085508311_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1501826_642545785783457_1136587216_n.jpg)
The SD is definitely a departure from the Glock design.
Intercooler, if you are going to post pics of Tupperware on a 10mm forum, make it Austrian Tupperware! ;)
Not anymore. Good Ole US of A!
I will do a range report of the XDs in .45 when I get it.
I put MT10mm's 220's through the tests today. Through the Hunter I shot two and three from the Limited. All the brass looks really good, no popped primers and good repeatable results. I will get a couple of photos here in a bit and measurements.
EAA Limited 4.75" 1233, 1243, 1243. Average = 1239.66 FPS/ 751 LBS. Last time out I used the Pro and averaged 1239 FPS. Nice!!! 8) I'm okay with this load, but other setups might not be and hopefully the new loading drops this a bit.
EAA Hunter 6" 1290, 1275. Average = 1282.5 FPS/ 804 LBS. I never recorded the Hunter data before, but this gives us 6" now.
My guess is the LW barrel then. I shot some 200 UW TMJ yesterday with no real pressure issues with the factory barrel.
I am going to keep my G20 stock and just pick my woods load.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 12 2014 10:02:30 AM MST
I put MT10mm's 220's through the tests today. Through the Hunter I shot two and three from the Limited. All the brass looks really good, no popped primers and good repeatable results. I will get a couple of photos here in a bit and measurements.
EAA Limited 4.75" 1233, 1243, 1243. Average = 1239.66 FPS/ 751 LBS. Last time out I used the Pro and averaged 1239 FPS. Nice!!! 8) I'm okay with this load, but other setups might not be and hopefully the new loading drops this a bit.
EAA Hunter 6" 1290, 1275. Average = 1282.5 FPS/ 804 LBS. I never recorded the Hunter data before, but this gives us 6" now.
Looking at the numbers, I'd say those were loaded with LongShot...but we would have to see to be sure. :-\
These are the new Long Shot loads and repeatable.
Here is the Hunter brass. Nothing to speak of and both measured .433".
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1545599_643010515736984_1361680398_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1609742_643010532403649_1710020338_n.jpg)
Here is the Limited brass with ever so slight flare at the feed ramp. All three measured .435".
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1185119_643010879070281_2100213549_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1560646_643010889070280_758394468_n.jpg)
Wish I never bought that LW barrel. Should have saved my money and bought more ammo.
They were slammin' the ejectors pretty hard, and little bit of firing pin wipe as it comes out of lockup from both guns. Even from your chambers they are expanded in the area not in the chamber...Pressure expansion ring is showing. I think it would be wise to drop the charge weight by 0.2 / 2 tenths and be satisfied with the velocity and less wear and tear on the guns.
The Glock chambers are around 0.4340" so they will expand a lot quicker and at that level they are over expanding as evident of the "smiles". Not sure what LWD is cutting their chambers to these days. ???
With these 220 heavy weights, the charge weight should be adjusted in my opinion! 1180-1200 fps would be plenty enough. 8)
I planned on phoning Kevin up to see if a change was made. Maybe I can buy just enough to run a decent test on.
IC
If you find out Kevin cut it back I will order some and send you a few to test
Keep me posted
I spoke with Kevin today and they have been changed. If you buy the current lot on the site you are good.
Did he say how much he backed off?
Nope. I hope they would give 1200 FPS in my barrel. In a Glock 1175 FPS.
Range Report!
Edit: 1175 sounds like a nice compromise. Though, someone (Yondering?) states 1175 would be too much with that particular bullet.
Hope he chimes in, I was looking to place an order to test some but would like to hear what he has to say first.
Anyone purchase the new lot yet?
You did I think? Are you sending a couple over?
Yes I did, ordered 3 boxes but not here yet. How many you want to do a complete test? I ordered 3 with high hopes for my glock20. This is the load I want to use so I hope it works out for me.
Do we need or want 6" barrel data? One for the pull-down and maybe 5 for velocity. I can split them between the two if all the readings are good. I haven't had issues all that much anymore and stop many times with just two good readings as of late.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 18 2014 07:07:12 AM MST
Do we need or want 6" barrel data? One for the pull-down and maybe 5 for velocity. I can split them between the two if all the readings are good. I haven't had issues all that much anymore and stop many times with just two good readings as of late.
I will send you as many as you will need to do your testing. I think 6" would be a good idea, lots are deer hunting with the 10mm and think this 220 would be a great load for that.
When I do swaps with other 10mm owners I typically do 8 per ammo.
I will let you know when they get here and they are on they way to you.
I can send you the new PBR stuff when I get it.
My underwood ammo order came yesterday and went out to test some. Fired 28rds total of UW 220hc. My 4th gen glock just does not like this 220gr ammo, I had many FTF.
IC
I will send you 10 rds as promised and then going to sell the last 2 boxes
I'm sorry to hear this. Did it seem scaled back a little?
What barrel and spring setup did you use? If you went to a 3rd Gen I bet it would spit those 220's out with no problem. Do you plan on swapping anything? The reason I ask is other high impulse ammo might give that 4th Gen fits as well.
Sorry to hear as well, MT.
How did it feed the previous Underwood 220? How does it feed the light 10 stuff?
IC is right, some of the Gen 4's we have seen have been finicky with the hot ammo. I believe I read over on glocktalk that Glock tests the G20's using CCI Blazer ammo, which is akin to a .45 ACP +P ballistics wise.
I was using stock barrel with stock RSA. Rds would fail to feed almost after every shot.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/tjf76/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps1df624a6.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tjf76/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps1df624a6.jpg.html)
Ammo didn't feel any different but who knows. I did fire 15rds of DT 200 from the same mag with no issues.
Maybe this Gen4 needs to go down the road. I might start looking for a SF.
The stock 17lb setup? Yea... that's not going to work for anything other then .40-lite stuff.
I really think the spring assembly is the biggest culprit in the Gen 4's. Would you be up to try this:
http://www.ndzperformance.com/Rock-Your-Glock-Gen-4-Recoil-Spring-Guide-Rod-Adap-p/ryg-g4-adpt.htm
With a 22-24lb recoil spring Gen 3 setup?
I do have the lone wolf version with a 22lbs spring set up. I will try it this morning and get back to you
43724 Wolff 24lb spring here:
http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=5#109
Guide rod:
http://www.ndzperformance.com/Glock-OEM-Factory-Guide-Rod-Spring-Assembly-p/glk-sp05586.htm
You would have $50 in it but could sell your Gen 4 setup if this works.
50124 is a Steel assembly with 24lb Wolff spring offered on their site for $30. Looks pretty nice and you only need that adapter to complete the setup.
Thanks for all your help IC but I am going to buy a SF G20 and sell the 4th gen.
I will keep this post updated, will pick up the SF next week.
Hold on to the 220's. Things might pan out with the new SF.
I forgot to ask if you experienced any popped primers or bulges with the new 220's?
Quote from: Intercooler on January 26 2014 05:58:34 AM MST
Hold on to the 220's. Things might pan out with the new SF.
I will, the 220 is what I would like to carry in the woods but for some reason mt 4th gen does not like it. The DT 200 cast does just fine and so does the UW 200TMJ. With the SF I can change the recoil spring no problem.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 26 2014 06:10:48 AM MST
I forgot to ask if you experienced any popped primers or bulges with the new 220's?
I did get a few smiles but no popped primers. I will send you the brass that was fired with the 10rds of loaded UW. I will get that out to you tomorrow. Hope it gets there faster then the last batch I sent you.
If it was fired from the same barrel as the last set of 220's with the popped primers that's good and bad news. The good is that with no popped primers and less of a bulge the load is reduced. The bad is the bulge is probably still related to the barrel in combination with the recoil spring. I will measure your and my brass after firing them.
It looks like those flat meplats are catching on the feed ramp, or something. It's hard to tell from the photo what they are hitting.
You might want to try a different bullet.
Or...a gen 3 might help if you do go that route.
How did they feed with the Lone Wolf barrel?
Quote from: Intercooler on January 26 2014 06:32:14 AM MST
If it was fired from the same barrel as the last set of 220's with the popped primers that's good and bad news. The good is that with no popped primers and less of a bulge the load is reduced. The bad is the bulge is probably still related to the barrel in combination with the recoil spring. I will measure your and my brass after firing them.
Good Idea,
I am starting to think this g20 just does not like the 220, the UW 200 TMJ shoot no problem. Some have no problems with the 4th gen RSA and yet other have do have problems. >:( I have tried the 3rd gen adapter with the heavier recoil spring but never did fire the glock with it installed. After it was installed I removed the slide and the RSA fell out, I didnt think that was a good thing so I have never used it.
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 26 2014 06:35:28 AM MST
How did they feed with the Lone Wolf barrel?
LW barrel is gone, they sent it back to me after testing that there is nothing wrong with it and I sold it.
I will try the heavier RSA today as a test but not real confident in this g20 anymore.
There was a guy on Glocktalk, his handle was 3/4Flap, who had a problem with a G20 similar to your Gen 4. The rounds were misfeeding to the left like in your picture. I don't know if his posts are still there, or if Eric purged them out. It's interesting though.
He ended up getting a replacement gun from Glock, in a different caliber though.
Best of luck to you with your gun issues. I am sure you will get it worked out somehow.
Just got back from trying the heavier spring set up and it made things worse, I guess its time to move on.
Quote from: MT10mm on January 26 2014 08:02:01 AM MST
Just got back from trying the heavier spring set up and it made things worse, I guess its time to move on.
Wow..what was it doing? Same thing?
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 26 2014 08:47:47 AM MST
Quote from: MT10mm on January 26 2014 08:02:01 AM MST
Just got back from trying the heavier spring set up and it made things worse, I guess its time to move on.
Wow..what was it doing? Same thing?
Very same thing but now its jams with the DT 200 which ran fine the the factory RSA
So now it's sounding more like a magazine issue.
Room over in the Witness camp ;)
That's funny because I was just looking at them ;D
DA/SA or Single action only?
The Hunter is a great SA only 6". If you want the shorter 4.5" barrel DA/SA get a Stock II. In the 4.75" SA only size, it's hard to beat a Match, although the Limited is the bees knees. Don't forget the Limited Pro as that's the 4.75" DA/SA version with no rail and shortened dust cover... basically between the Match and Limited.
Stock II
Are they ok to shot HOT ammo out of ? I have seen a few posts online that they are not rated for +p ammo
That's some EAA stuff they put out there. With just a $8.00 20-22lb spring you are good to go shooting the nastiest stuff out there. While doing the swap though put a $25.00 Henning flat bottom firing pin retaining block and a $35.00 Henning Cone-Fit guide rod in there to help it last a long long time. We have StockIIBoss on here that owns one and could give more information about it.
Quote from: MT10mm on January 26 2014 08:51:53 AM MST
Very same thing but now its jams with the DT 200 which ran fine the the factory RSA
I have a 22# Wolf spring and a LWD steel guide rod/Gen4 adapter bushing I run in a Gen4 g20. It won't run 135g Underwood. You can feel the slide slam at the end if its travel and when it does, the impulse twists the pistol upward. I suppose I could tighten the grip and wrist beyond normal, but the same ammo runs fine with the stock dual gen 4 spring.
That dual spring seems to be a decent idea. It also appears the aftermarket (or Glock) would be wise to build heavier copies of the same idea. I wish I'd have gone with the 24# with the setup, but a 28-30# setup might be what's needed for running the big heavy stuff with a single spring. As it stands now, it seems the aftermarket support simply just isn't there for the Gen4.
Cash flow is a bit of an issue right now, but the Limited Pro seems like an excellent idea.
Greg
Hey all. I heard my cage rattling! :D Yes, I have the Stock II and couldn't be happier with it. As for shooting full loads like Underwood, I've had zero problems. They're built like a tank, and that coned barrel is massive. Yeah, they're more $ than a Glock, but you have to pay for all that 'awesomeness' going on... :) I have tweaked mine a bit, but that wasn't to resolve existing problems. More of a 'to suit' kinda thing, such as a trigger job, fluff n buff, coned guide rod, various recoil springs, etc. On mine I had no issues with slide battering, but followed the advice on here to go with the Henning coned guide rod and heavier spring for some insurance. Works great, just like before, but if it can help save a little beating, I'm all for it. I finally settled on an 18 lb spring. I've had no problems mechanically with the various spring weights, either with Underwood or the weaker offerings out there (Armscor, etc). Everything feeds and extracts/ejects just fine. I don't recall ever seeing a +P option for it. Of course, they shoot like they're "hot" loads! But that's just what the 10mm is supposed to feel like. Yes!
Tanfo prices are creeping up. Figures, right?
I do like them but they are getting up there in price. I am going to keep my eyes open for one local.
IC,
You have ammo inbound, should be there Thursday.
Cool. I'm doing a bunch of 9mm Saturday and will do those 10's with them.
Arrived today, but no fired brass. I have 10 rounds and will send one for pull-down.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 29 2014 03:27:58 PM MST
Arrived today, but no fired brass. I have 10 rounds and will send one for pull-down.
Dang it! Forgot to include it, sorry
No problem. Maybe you can take a couple of measurements and post them?
I'm getting ready to head out with the reduced 220's testing in both barrel lengths. I will get brass measurements when I return.
Cool. Looking forward to your post later.
I will be home getting some rest. I've been sick all week, and will be working the game tomorrow.
I am going out today with the SF and the new UW 220. I will do the same as IC. I will take brass measurements from my 4th gen brass with factory barrel and SF with factory barrel.
4949shooter,
I miss the east coast, I grew up in upstate NY. Montana is nice but I miss the Fall woods of the east coast.
MT the east coast can be nice with the change of seasons, and the sea shore. I love Long Beach Island.
It sounds like you are doing well in Montana though, and you live in a free state!
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 01 2014 06:04:17 AM MST
MT the east coast can be nice with the change of seasons, and the sea shore. I love Long Beach Island.
It sounds like you are doing well in Montana though, and you live in a free state!
I agree but You get to see the big game tomorrow in person!
Quote from: MT10mm on February 01 2014 06:06:42 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 01 2014 06:04:17 AM MST
MT the east coast can be nice with the change of seasons, and the sea shore. I love Long Beach Island.
It sounds like you are doing well in Montana though, and you live in a free state!
I agree but You get to see the big game tomorrow in person!
Unfortunately MT, where I will be posted I won't be seeing it at all.
But it's okay, cuz the Giants aren't in it. :P
I think Kevin nailed it and will be calling him Monday to tell him "leave it alone"!! ;D The brass God's weren't totally with me today with recovery in snow, so 10mm shooting was limited. I did manage to get a few pieces from each length for measurement and will post them after I get all the data scrunched, but it all looked good.
EAA Limited 4.75" 1195, 1195, 1191, 1194, 1190, 1195. Average = 1193.3 FPS/ 696 LBS
EAA Hunter 6" 1254, 1221, 1215. Average = 1230 FPS/ 739 LBS
The data from the 1239 FPS load will be moved to the "discontinued" tab and I will plug these numbers in for the current reduced load. It's backed down to about flap rating now.
Went out and fired 45rds, 15rds UW 220HC, 15rds UW 200TMJ and 15rds DT 200-HC
--I had the same issues with the 220 ammo, some would not feed and some would not eject but no over pressure signs. I did have slight smiles but nothing like before.
--I had 1 FTF with the 200 DT No pressure signs and no smiles
--No issues with the 15rds of UW 200TMJ. No pressure signs and no smiles.
Think I will stick to the 200 TMJ and 200 DT HC for woods carry.
All rds were fired with factory barrel and 22lb recoil spring.
696 foot pounds still looks like a prominent load.
MT, is this the same load that failed to function in your Glock? Edit: The new load?
Nope, the old load did as well No big deal though. I like the 200TMJ load too.
Help me get PBR convinced to offer the Beartooth 200gr Hardcast with their 200gr XTP load. It might feed better! Please contact PBR and ask for it.
https://www.pbrammo.com/contact
Quote from: Intercooler on February 01 2014 02:49:05 PM MST
Help me get PBR convinced to offer the Beartooth 200gr Hardcast with their 200gr XTP load. It might feed better! Please contact PBR and ask for it.
https://www.pbrammo.com/contact
Sent them a nice email
Quote from: Intercooler on February 01 2014 09:56:04 AM MST
EAA Limited 4.75" 1195, 1195, 1191, 1194, 1190, 1195. Average = 1193.3 FPS/ 696 LBS
Wow. 5 FPS spread. Sweet!!! Too bad I have a Gen4, so I don't think its worth the gamble with feeding.
Greg
The three pieces of brass from the 1239 FPS load measured .432", .432" and the one ramp bulge was .437".
Today's brass measurements at the reduced load:
EAA Limited 4.75" .431", .431", .432".
Hunter 6" .432", .432"
The brass looks better and the measurements don't vary much from the 180gr TMJ's.
(https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1560508_651920398179329_862148414_n.jpg)
Quote from: MT10mm on February 01 2014 09:57:05 AM MST
Went out and fired 45rds, 15rds UW 220HC, 15rds UW 200TMJ and 15rds DT 200-HC
--I had the same issues with the 220 ammo, some would not feed and some would not eject but no over pressure signs. I did have slight smiles but nothing like before.
--I had 1 FTF with the 200 DT No pressure signs and no smiles
--No issues with the 15rds of UW 200TMJ. No pressure signs and no smiles.
Think I will stick to the 200 TMJ and 200 DT HC for woods carry.
All rds were fired with factory barrel and 22lb recoil spring.
I have to wonder if the lock up of the slide lock - to the barrel fit, if is part of your issue...early unlocking.
Then there is the extractor, is it not holding the case to fully extract it...
Just trying to help narrow down what causes and how they are related to the issues.
Intercooler, The brass looks better and velocities are where more stable.
I agree and know Kevin will be happy with it. My opinion is they can all stay exactly where they are now regardless of something freaky happening with one firearm.
Quote from: Intercooler on February 01 2014 03:44:49 PM MST
I agree and know Kevin will be happy with it. My opinion is they can all stay exactly where they are now regardless of something freaky happening with one firearm.
I agree, no reason to change things for one or two finicky weapons.
I am glad Kevin accepted our feedback. If nothing changes I will try these out in a few months when the LW barrel comes in. They are backordered to May 30th.
It's much easier to talk to these guys! Just look at Winchester, etc... :o
Right! You made some good headway with PPU. I was surprised the Serbs listened at all.
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 01 2014 04:34:21 PM MST
Right! You made some good headway with PPU. I was surprised the Serbs listened at all.
Good thing they didn't listen too well. Head seperations aren't too cool.
Greg
Yeah I didn't think about that. I am not sure how common the issue is, but it is something to consider with the seemingly softer brass they use.
Was the head seperation on a reload? Raggedyman loaded to real 10mm velocity and no issue.
It was a reload. Midway showed the benefit of reloadable brass, which I read as SAMMI pressures. That was a big no-go in a G20 in my case. There is negative feedback on that issue in Midway's site about the "reloadable" claim.
I wouldn't recommend stout reloads with PPU brass. I won't recommend any reload as far as me personally.
Heck, I have three full boxes and the remnants of the original first box that are untouched. I just don't trust the quality and its not worth another gun frame to me.
Greg
Some good news after Denver got blown out
"Hi Tom,
Yes, we are going to offer both of those for customers. We are getting some 10mm brass this week and working on the development in the background. We'll load out our V-Supreme line and normal 10mm this time. Then the next time we have brass, we'll offer the hardcast, XTP, and a 135gr Nosler.
Regards,
Anthony Mowry
Parabellum Research, LLC
P.O. Box 163
Buda, Texas 78610
(512) 576-4595
www.pbrammo.com
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Tom Furlano <tfurlano76@gmail.com> wrote:
Submitted on Saturday, February 1, 2014 - 15:58
Submitted by anonymous user: [174.253.161.189]
Submitted values are:
Name: Tom Furlano
Email Address: tfurlano76@gmail.com
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Message Subject: 10mm ammo
Message:
Thanks for offering us 10mm shooters some fine ammo. Have you thought about offering the Beartooth 200gr Hardcast and a 200gr XTP load? I feel you would not be able to load it fast enough for the demand it will have. Thanks for your time
I've been following this thread and http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1514043&page=4 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1514043&page=4) with much interest.
I have a stock G20SF (less than 1yr old) and have fired several of the UW and BB offerings without issue. I also picked up 3 boxes of the UW 220HC back in the fall before the downgrade.
I have a 20lb. RSA ready to go and a KKM 6" on the way. But now I am not sure if I should attempt to try the 220HC.
Should I try it?
Which barrel & RSA would be best / safest?
You *should* be good with the KKM barrel. I like the 22 pound RSA for the heavy stuff, which works best in my personal G20.
I don't know if Kevin would exchange then for the new load? Either that, or someone here may take them off your hands if you don't want to shoot them.
Thanks for the feedback.
I'll give it a go and if it seems like a workable setup, then I'll step up the RSA.
I tried the 220gr HC today with a 6" KKM barrel.
Shot 10 rounds. First 5 were one round in the mag at a time. Everything looked OK to me as I collected each case after firing.
Then I loaded 5 in the mag. I had a failure to feed on the 2nd or 3rd round. Corrected and continued. I was only able to recover 2 more cases. 1 had no primer - probably the round leading to the FTF. I decided to stop there.
I measured the 7 recovered cases (of 10 fired):
.431
.432
.432
.431
.431
.432 *blown primer
.432
I have 140 more of these rounds. Am I correct in assuming the experts here would recommend not to fire any more?
[ETA: These are the older, hotter 220gr rounds.]
Would it be possible to remove some of the powder and "reload"? (I have not started reloading so I have no idea.)
Would the stock Gen3 barrel be any better/safer? (Thinking that the looser chamber and shorter barrel may result in lower pressure.) Oops, forgot there's no jacket - my primary reason for getting the KKM.
Other options?
3 thoughts -
- I would not continue shooting any load that caused a blown primer. That's a very definite sign of over-pressure, unless it's really weak brass. Even if you never had any other pressure issues, gas leakage around the primer will cause erosion of your breech face.
- Single case measurements after firing aren't worth much; you need to measure before and after, and compare the difference against a known good max load in the same brass.
- The Glock barrels do just fine with lead - if the bullet fits, meaning it should be slightly (.001-.003") larger than the bore. The 9mm Glock barrels tend to be a couple thousandths large, which I suspect is the main cause of the "no lead in Glocks" idea. Your .40/10mm barrel may or may not be oversized.
Quote from: Yondering on March 07 2014 10:03:43 PM MST
3 thoughts -
- I would not continue shooting any load that caused a blown primer. That's a very definite sign of over-pressure, unless it's really weak brass. Even if you never had any other pressure issues, gas leakage around the primer will cause erosion of your breech face.
- Single case measurements after firing aren't worth much; you need to measure before and after, and compare the difference against a known good max load in the same brass.
- The Glock barrels do just fine with lead - if the bullet fits, meaning it should be slightly (.001-.003") larger than the bore. The 9mm Glock barrels tend to be a couple thousandths large, which I suspect is the main cause of the "no lead in Glocks" idea. Your .40/10mm barrel may or may not be oversized.
Bingo. The signs are telling you to stop shooting it.
I would contact Kevin and see if he will replace your ammo with the newer, reduced load. He should be understanding if you explain the circumstances to him.
Glad you didn't have anything worse happen!
Thanks guys.
For the record, the case diameter of the unfired Underwood 220gr HC rounds is .421.
Why does this look to be only a glock issue? Do any of the S&W/EAA or other shooters have these same issues? When I was have my problems with the 4th gen G20 I looked for problems with other platforms and didnt find as many. Dont get me wrong I love my G20 but maybe Glock needs to address possible issues with the G20 platform.
TheOtherMike, Is this the Glock 20 3rd or 4th generation?
What RSA spring rate are you running? Factory stock? Other?
I have been trying to study these issues, Semi Autos are very dynamic in their functions. Positive lockup and dwell time in battery all affect the performance. I just installed a Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive RSA in my G-20SF and did some crude testing with a digital scale the results can be seen here; http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/msg27957/?boardseen#new (http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/msg27957/?boardseen#new)
Underwood's ammo as measured in the pull-downs are shown to be loaded above loadings in most manuals if not all. However some guns will handle the loadings just fine.
Quote from: MT10mm on March 08 2014 06:52:08 AM MST
Why does this look to be only a glock issue? Do any of the S&W/EAA or other shooters have these same issues? When I was have my problems with the 4th gen G20 I looked for problems with other platforms and didnt find as many. Dont get me wrong I love my G20 but maybe Glock needs to address possible issues with the G20 platform.
I honestly think it has something to do with the polymer frame. We don't see any other manufacturers with *completely* successful polymer10mm platforms. The polymer flexes under recoil, even as evidenced by the 9mm +p+ video posted by someone here (Shadow?).
I am happy to have found a workable setup with my Gen 3 SF and 22 pound RSA. I won't be getting the Lone Wolf barrel until probably June, but I am planning on testing the Underwood and Buff Bore 220 hardcast loads with this barrel in my Glock.
The Glock is a tough pistol for sure. It is used by military units and police departments here and in other parts of the world. That having been said, I don't think Glock ever intended for "nuclear" level loads to be fired through their tens. From Glocktalk I learned they test their 10mm pistols with CCi 200 grain Blazer. Not exactly a hot load. 45+p level maybe, but not true 10mm.
I shoot high pressure in my XD. When I let the slide stop go it chambers but... It has a weak pressure holding it shut. It sometimes doesn't seem to push the slide forward solidly as much as I like and I give it a nudge. So far I have been pretty lucky it has stayed in battery (talking 9mm here) and know it might bite me at some point in time. High pressure rounds seem better suited in hammer fired pistols.
I setup my G20SF specifically for this 220gr HC ammo with a 6" KKM and a 20lb. captured RSA with a stainless rod.
Everything else I have run through the G20SF was with stock setup.
Not clear to me what issue is being attributed to Glocks/polymer frames.
Also not clear what the RSA has to do with overpressure concerns.
Hope someone can explain.
Thanks!
A neat experiment would be to hang or attach a pull gauge onto your slide and see what force in LBS it takes to pull the slide back against the striker. I can do this with one of my hammer fired pistols if it holds on the site correctly. Let me go see.
I just tried the Limited Pro several times and the slide overcomes the hammer and starts the slide movement back at ~ 12 LBS. Can someone with a Glock give it a whirl? My guess is about 6 LBS, but since I'm curious I'm going back to pull the XD :o
The XD had moved in the 4-5 LB range, but noticed it moved pretty freely before that nice movement backwards. It has a DPM recoil reducing guide-rod assembly in it too.
Quote from: TheOtherMike on March 09 2014 10:25:53 AM MDT
I setup my G20SF specifically for this 220gr HC ammo with a 6" KKM and a 20lb. captured RSA with a stainless rod.
Everything else I have run through the G20SF was with stock setup.
Not clear to me what issue is being attributed to Glocks/polymer frames.
Also not clear what the RSA has to do with overpressure concerns.
Hope someone can explain.
Thanks!
The polymer frame flexes under recoil. There was a slow motion video posted somewhere of a Glock 19 firing +p+ ammo. You could see how much the frame flexed in the video and that was only 9mm!
I do believe with full power 10mm ammo the Glock framed flexes in a similar manner, though probably to a greater degree. This in my opinion can cause malfunctions. In my case, a 22 pound RSA solved the problem.
Here is my experience with the UW 220gr HC 10mm load.
Pistol: gen3 Glock 20, factory recoil spring, KKM 5.3" barrel. I chose this barrel length to line up with the end of the SureFire X300U light mounted on the gun, which gives more holstering options.
Test 1: UW 220gr Hard Cast, bought in October 2013, shot in mid December 2013; temp = 55 degF
1264
1244
1263
1256
1256
avg = 1257, sd = 7.14; can't recall if this brass showed overpressure signs
Test 2: UW 220gr Hard Cast, bought in October 2013, shot in mid January 2014; temp = 53 degF
1296
1271
1273
1272
1274
avg = 1277, sd = 9.45
Some of these rounds had mild smilies (even with the KKM barrel) and one blew out a primer. I called Kevin about it in February 2014. He replaced it all with ammo from newer batches, and sent me a shipping label to return the unfired rounds from what I had bought in October 2013.
Test 3: UW 220gr Hard Cast, lot #B0901-003 received in February 2014, shot on March 9, 2014; temp = 68 degF
1177
1215
1179
1189
1195
avg = 1191, sd = 13.68; brass looks good with no apparent signs of overpressure
So it looks like the UW 220gr HC load has certainly been toned down, especially since the higher velocities were recorded in weather that was 15 degF colder. I put this gun together for use out West against large animals when I have no other option. I'm now unsure if the load is powerful enough for that, though it's no good for the gun to blow up, of course.
Quote from: DarnSkippy on March 16 2014 04:42:27 PM MDT
Here is my experience with the UW 220gr HC 10mm load.
Pistol: gen3 Glock 20, factory recoil spring, KKM 5.3" barrel. I chose this barrel length to line up with the end of the SureFire X300U light mounted on the gun, which gives more holstering options.
Test 1: UW 220gr Hard Cast, bought in October 2013, shot in mid December 2013; temp = 55 degF
1264
1244
1263
1256
1256
avg = 1257, sd = 7.14; can't recall if this brass showed overpressure signs
Test 2: UW 220gr Hard Cast, bought in October 2013, shot in mid January 2014; temp = 53 degF
1296
1271
1273
1272
1274
avg = 1277, sd = 9.45
Some of these rounds had mild smilies (even with the KKM barrel) and one blew out a primer. I called Kevin about it in February 2014. He replaced it all with ammo from newer batches, and sent me a shipping label to return the unfired rounds from what I had bought in October 2013.
Test 3: UW 220gr Hard Cast, lot #B0901-003 received in February 2014, shot on March 9, 2014; temp = 68 degF
1177
1215
1179
1189
1195
avg = 1191, sd = 13.68; brass looks good with no apparent signs of overpressure
So it looks like the UW 220gr HC load has certainly been toned down, especially since the higher velocities were recorded in weather that was 15 degF colder. I put this gun together for use out West against large animals when I have no other option. I'm now unsure if the load is powerful enough for that, though it's no good for the gun to blow up, of course.
In bold is your issue with the numbers.
According to the 4949shooter full-power 10mm calculator... that's still full-power :P ;D
Haha! :))
It's actually from Shadow's chart.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 16 2014 05:15:07 PM MDT
In bold is your issue with the numbers.
Can you clarify? Are you referring to the velocities themselves, the SD, both?
When putting together this G20, I read this forum and others regarding G20 recoil springs. There just didn't seem to be a consensus. Some insisted you need heavy aftermarket, some said stick with factory, others said it didn't matter. Would love to get clarification if it yields improvement.
Forgot to mention, I've never had a malfunction of any type with UW ammo and the factory recoil spring, either with the OEM or KKM barrels.
From Buffalo Bore's (Tim Sundles) website:
If you are firing this 10mm ammo from an autoloader and experience high extreme spreads in velocity, it is not the ammo. Here is why and how to remedy the situation.
Full power 10mm ammo has always generated enough recoil and pressure to require a pretty stiff recoil spring in your handgun - this of course depends on several variables such as your slide weight, etc. When the cartridge fires, it generates enough pressure/recoil to prematurely open your breech face in some guns. When this happens, the opening breech face has an effect on the burn rate of the powder. This can result in some fairly high extreme spreads in velocity. If you are experiencing extreme velocity spreads of more than 50 fps, simply install a stiffer recoil spring. For example, I have an original Colt Delta Elite. This gun with the factory spring runs extreme spreads of about 35fps with both of these 10mm loads. I am happy with 35 fps, so I leave the Delta Elite as is. I also have a custom built Para Ordinance with a Nowlin barrel. It runs extreme spreads of about 70 fps with its original recoil spring. When I install a spring that is 4 lbs stiffer, the extreme spread drops to about 35 fps. The new Glock model 20 comes with a recoil spring that allows the breech face to open too soon and my new Glock model 20 will get extreme spreads of about 100fps with the factory spring installed. When I go to a stiffer recoil spring, the extreme spreads drop to about 50 fps in my new Glock model 20. Of course none of this will be an issue in a revolver. None of this will be an issue in real life either, as these high extreme spreads don't hurt accuracy or function. However, I mention this because if you are like me and want things to be as correct as possible, I have outlined the problem and the solution. The industry fixed all these problems initially, by watering down the 10mm ammo over the last several years. The watered down 10mm ammo does not generate the pressure/recoil to open the breech face early. If you want the full powered 10mm ammo we make, you simply need to tweak your pistol. Or just realize that you are getting some fairly high extreme spreads and ignore it or live with it. It's not hurting any thing in reality.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114
Intercooler is referring to the standard deviation. I do find it interesting though, you had the greatest deviation with the newer load.
Old original stock spring? I change my 20 and 22lb springs out pretty often when shooting the hard stuff.
Quote from: DarnSkippy on March 16 2014 06:00:05 PM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on March 16 2014 05:15:07 PM MDT
In bold is your issue with the numbers.
Can you clarify? Are you referring to the velocities themselves, the SD, both?
When putting together this G20, I read this forum and others regarding G20 recoil springs. There just didn't seem to be a consensus. Some insisted you need heavy aftermarket, some said stick with factory, others said it didn't matter. Would love to get clarification if it yields improvement.
Forgot to mention, I've never had a malfunction of any type with UW ammo and the factory recoil spring, either with the OEM or KKM barrels.
I am also not sure what Intercooler means, and frankly disagree with such a statement.
Rationale: We've all seen slow motion video of a pistol firing. In every example, the projectile has left the barrel quite some time prior to the slide starting to react and moving to the rear. Conclusion: RSA is not a factor in projectile velocity.
Additionally, assuming a very weak RSA would allow the barrel to begin rearward travel too soon, thus presumably decreasing barrel pressure and hence projectile velocity, then the weaker, stock RSA would yield lower velocities rather than higher velocities as DarnSkippy measured. If RSA strength is a factor in projectile velocity, I would expect results that contradict what Intercooler is implying.
So to me, such a statement is illogical. However, I may not fully understand all of the factors involved and, if so, I would really like to learn what all this means.
ETA: Ah, good. I just read what was posted above while I was typing. However, I still don't see evidence that the RSA strength is a factor. With an avg = 1191, an sd=14 is neglible and partially (mostly?) due to other factors like measurement error, powder loading, etc.
Those Glock 5.3" barrel numbers are about what I got with a 4.75" barrel. What's different?
I gave the comparison with my XD how quickly the slide moves back versus the hammer fired setup. The only thing I don't have is a Glock to run these tests to confirm things. If Tim Sundles already put it in print what kind of drop can be seen in his real world tests with a Glock it would be a waste.
DarnSkippy,
Can you pull a bullet and weigh the charge comparing it with what we found?
I doubt it is watered lower than the stuff I shot. I'm open to what others think is going on here.
Tim Sundles' explanation may or may not seem plausible. But what is more important is his observation of velocity effect when the different weight springs are used.
Mr.Redbull has done the test on video. Watch it and discuss:
That vid by RedBull was one of the things that led me to say "why bother with a heavier spring, as long as reliability is good?". IIRC on the 155gr UW, the stock spring had an extreme spread of 60 fps while the 22# Brass Stacker had a spread of 44 fps. Just doesn't seem like enough difference to me to drop $25 on another part. Again, though, this is only if the gun has good reliability. I just checked my records and my G20 has had 0 malfunctions in firing 330 rounds. This has been a mix of loads by UW, DT, and Precision One. I can certainly see experimenting with different RSAs if a pistol has been malfunctioning.
I pulled one of those new 220g UW rounds (lot #B0901-003, same as Test #3):
powder: 7.9gr; I think a few flakes were left in the puller
bullet: 217.1gr
All: reading through my few posts here I think I am coming across as argumentative. Not intended, I assure you. I have been lurking here a long time learning up on the 10mm and I appreciate all the great info you guys put out there. I have shot over 100,000 rounds through Glocks since 1998 but just last year got into 10mm.
When I was measuring the difference of the Glock 20SF factory spring and comparing it to the Wolff non-captive 22 lb I did notice a slight difference in the point to which the slide would start to move. The data for that can be found here in this post...http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/)
It is my understanding that the small amount of extra spring pressure, does keep the slide from moving by a few milliseconds to aid in maintaining lock up for that fraction of time.
The extra spring weight helps to also control slide speed and ejection distances with the higher impulse ammo like Buffalo Bore, Underwood, CorBon, Double Tap and especially my own handloads that match many of those being sold.
I would suggest that anyone who is running the higher impulse ammo, should experiment with various spring rates to see just how things work for their guns. Now the kicker for you guys running the Glock gen 4's you don't have many options as of yet when it comes to aftermarket RSA and spring rates...SORRY! It will change I'm sure as the aftermarket companies study the dynamics involved and how to better control them.
Your test was similar in every way to mine, except I did a hammer fired for comparison. The striker fired style needs all the help it can get it appears.
I checked the sheet and 8.0gr's was found in the pull-down. It looks like you are right there on the powder.
TheOtherMike,
Did you view the video? What's your thoughts?
Glockmeister now has the Gen 4 RSA with varying weights:
http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Spring-Assembly-for-Gen-4-G20-G21-and-G41/productinfo/G4SS20CS/
Help me out here. With that RS setup do you have to pay $30 for each weight and $30 for a new setup when it has met its service life?
I could be wrong, but that looks like a captured guide rod and spring. If you want non-captured you would have to go with the Wolff rod and spring with adaptor.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 17 2014 05:25:16 AM MDT
TheOtherMike,
Did you view the video? What's your thoughts?
Yes, I just watched the video - thanks for bringing that to my attention. The data are interesting and I can see how they support the theories discussed in this thread. On the other hand, these are not controlled tests and the number of samples is rather low, yada yada yada. Here I go sounding like a jerk again, but I doubt the results are statistically significant and would hesitate to draw any conclusions.
For example, I can use the data to make a different argument. I'll refer to the 200gr UW trials. (Not trying to cherry pick. I didn't use the initial 155gr trials due to cold barrel and I didn't pay attention to the 40 or 357 data.)
Type | Weight | Average | Spread |
Glock | 17 | 1280 | 41 |
B.S. | 22 | 1275 | 29 |
Tungsten | 22 | 1277 | 36 |
Wolff | 24 | 1292 | 17 |
I would expect a "loose" system (Glock RSA) to produce lower velocities. I expect a weaker spring that allows the slide to recoil too soon to produce a "mean shift" downward, meaning that the average velocity for such a system will be lower, due to a predicted drop in pressure before the projectile leaves the barrel.
Note that the Glock spring yielded the second highest average velocity, more than springs even 5 lbs heavier. The highest average velocity was realized with a spring only 2 lbs heavier than the spring yielding lowest average velocity.
Of all the unusual measurements of the springs made in the video (mass, rod diameter) the most significant factor (spring rate) wasn't addressed. How do we know what the actual spring rates are? What is the variability in a single manufacturer's products? I know some of you have made such measurements (Thanks!) and I have yet to look at your results.
The time between trials can be another factor as the barrel cools. Glock was always first, probably after a gear change. This may explain the higher spreads.
I could go on but I don't want to irritate anyone more than I probably already have. For me there still isn't sufficient information to support any conclusion, and I'm OK with that. I think a slow motion video of similar trials would be enlightening.
Can you agree there is something there if the video and several ammo MFG's put it in writing? They are testing, testing and retesting with Chronographs and setups.
Another 10mm great was Mike Willard (SwampFox Ammo) who you might not know. He passed a couple years ago, but also wrote about it. I found his old video where he talks about this:
Not much to go on in the SwampFox video. Perhaps the biggest takeaway is that the equipment (chrono) is not as reliable or consistent as one may wish. I know nothing about chronos or their specifications. I also had no idea that they're affected by weather conditions. I've been considering getting a chrono someday.
I for one am learning with your help - thanks!
I am guessing that substantial efforts and premium equipment would be required to produce data identifying a strong correlation between RSA strength and projectile velocity. A large corporation like ATK or Olin/Winchester probably has the resources, but lacks the incentive. If such a company produced a report on this topic, I would review the data with high regard.
I am at the beginning of a journey of learning and will reach my conclusions carefully as knowledge is gained. I don't feel the need to settle on answers any time soon. I'll just sit back and study the data as it comes in.
One thing I noticed was the chronograph was angled and if he was not shooting level to the screens that can affect the readings. Also the light can enter the sensors at odd angles, these units see the bullet as a shadow to start and stop the timing circuits. If shooting too close specks of powder can be blown forward and trip the timing circuits before the bullet gets there.
One thing I credit Mike Willard for, was he shared the load data and actually discussed things with the guys on GlockTalk. he and I communicated on several occasions!
Mike Willard did tell us that the stock spring can cause the slide to open prematurely with the hot ammo. This is also what Tim Sundles from Buffalo Bore was getting at.
Both of these individuals are (and were) extremely knowledgeable. I would seriously take into consideration their input. Of course, Mike Willard is no longer with us.
I got some fresh UW 220gr HC and tried some at the range today. They're a bit smokey, but I was getting nice 2" groups of 5 at 10 yards. No popped primers, no smiles, had one FTF though (nose up & left). It was the 3rd round of 5 in the mag.
I just measured the cases I managed to recover.
9 @ .431
3 @ .430
Unfired diameter is just under .422 (call it .4215) and COAL is 1.252.
I was using a G20SF with a 6" KKM barrel and 20lb RSA.
Not sure what to make of the FTF. Maybe I limp wristed. Mags are new. I'll need to do more testing.
Those brass measurements look good and about what I get. The dialed in load looks pretty good now!
Nice job!