So here are the results of my very first ever attempt at making cartridges. Was not the exact components I wanted to work with but thought I'd share.
First off I berry's 180 gr flat point .401 bullets, Winchester WLP primers, Hodgon H110 and Mixed once fired brass.
Started with 12.0 grains fired from both a 6inch barrel and 16 inch mech tech.
GLOCK AVG. 936.3 FPS @ 350 FT LBS
MECH-TECH AVG. 1163 FPS @ 541 FT LBS
NEXT 12.5 GRAINS
GLOCK AVG. 973.6 FPS @ 379 FT LBS
MECH-TECH AVG. 1230.3 FPS @ 605 FT LBS
NEXT 13.0 GRAINS C.O.L. 1.251
GLOCK AVG. 1035.7 FPS @ 429 FT LBS
MECH-TECH AVG. 1286.3 FPS @ 661 FT LBS
I then fired a couple of rounds off from 2 different 200 gr rounds from PBR and one of the results were AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!
I talked to Anthony from PBR earlier in the week to find out what powder I had in my lot #'s.
PREMIUM LINE 200 GR FMJ - POWDER IS POWER PISTOL
MECH-TECH AVG. 1239 FPS @ 682 FT LBS
V-SUPREME 200 GR FMJ - POWDER IS NO.9
MECH-TECH AVG. 1548 FPS @ 1064 FT LBS
THIS OUT PERFORMED ALL OTHER 200 GR I HAVE EVER FIRED IN THE MECH-TECH AND NO SIGNS OF PRESSURE.
Very nice! The Shadow has been doing a great job doing the pull-downs figuring out the powders. I wish I could get one round of Elite to see what it is :(
I tell The Shadow all the time, #9 will be my main starting powder for 10mm and Magnums when I start reloading.
In my reloading research I saw a lot of H110 and 296 for powder being used for 44 magnum. I thought I'd try it with a 200 gr in the mech-tech as soon as find some of those bullets. Should work good but that NO.9 for 10mm is great from what I saw.
Here is the Winchester published data of years back...296 being the same as H-110
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/10mmWinchester.jpg)
Cor-Bon used #9 in the old box of 135's I tested, labeled 1450 FPS, they smoked compared to the current stuff labeled 1400 FPS. It also seems impossible to hit the danger zone as easily due to case capacity. It's one of the reasons I like PBR's 200's versus the others.
The reason I posted the Winchester info is you can see the pressure values for the 296 loadings, very low and plenty room pressure wise to load more powder. I know it takes a good crimp for this powder to be fully ignited and squibs are possible if not! ???
Thanks Wade for that find. I had not seen that before but had suspected it was going to work. I need to tighten my crimp for sure and I should be hitting numbers a little high than those for 180 gr since I'm using a 6 inch barrel. At least avg 1000 fps instead of 973.56 fps I got with 12.5 gr.
David, one thing that may help with the slow powders like H-110/296, is if you are using true jacketed projectiles, is using less case mouth expansion, or as little as possible. Some people actually have the expander die's plug turned or ground slightly smaller diameter, to have an increase in case to bullet tension. I know that some manufactures use a sealant on their projectiles to also aid in neck tension to prevent setback issues and improved ignition!
I have wanted to work with the H-110/296 powders but to get the most velocity it will be above that of these printed loadings.
There are many powders that yield good velocities and do use less propellant, so with these slower powders like IMR4227, Alliant 2400, H-110/296 just haven't peaked my interest enough to pursue loadings. :-[
Years ago, I used to use IMR4227 on my 44 Loads
I got good accuracy, but always had issue with unburned Cellulose (Powder Media) Residue left in the Case and Cylinder / Ejector Star, causing Cylinder Rotation issues
I can't imagine that mess getting into the Action of a Semi Auto
I have not tried it, but with a 200 grain bullet I don't think there is enough case capacity to get enough H110/296 into the cartridge to get any kind of reasonable results. That is why the low pressure in the table. In fact I can't see it working with any bullet weight.
There isn't enough room in a 454 to get max results with those powderseven. That low of pressures could even be dangerous possibly.
Is there info about how much pressure is increased using Magnum primers like CCI or Federal?
There is some increase in pressure and it varies by the powder being used by the effect on the powder. I have directly swapped magnum primers on several loadings for 10mm and never had any issues even with some extreme loads...
Here is some very good data on primers; http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0;wap2 (http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0;wap2)
The effect of primer on pressure also varies a good bit by brand. More than most people realize.
We all hear the advice to reduce by 10% and work up again when swapping a component, but, especially novice loaders, frequently don't. If you want proof look at all the kabooms you see. Chances are in many of the cases where someone was shooting a "standard load" they have "loaded a lot of" we would find that the kaboom happened when they had switched out a component without reducing and working back up.
The A-Square company, among many others, has conducted tests on changing just primers. They tested using the 7mm Remington Magnum, 160 grain Sierra BT over 66.0 grains of Hodgdon H4831. The spreads:
Lowest pressure standard primer to highest pressure magnum changed pressure 12,800 psi.
Standard primer spread, lowest to highest, was 9600 psi
Magnum primer spread, lowest to highest was 8300 psi
The smallest of these spreads would represent a 22% increase in pressure over max in a full power 10mm load. The biggest is 35%. And this is in a voluminous 7mm Magnum case compared to our tiny 10mm case.
I imagine there is similar data out there about pistol primers.
Wade has clearly had different experiences than this data would suggest. It is also worth noting that the pressure spread from the hottest standard primer to the hottest magnum primer was only 3200 psi, and the spread from the hottest standard primer to the lowest magnum primer was -5100 psi. That is right, The hottest standard LRP was 5100 PSI higher than the lowest LRMP.
My take is you could probably switch from a Winchester LPP to a CCI LPMP and have very little issue.
But, we like to shoot. Working back up is a great excuse to spend a day or two at the range. And it keeps you very safe.
Sqlbullet, That was with a high pressure rifle cartridge and that slower burning 66 grain powder charge does benefit from the primers higher brisance to detonate and ignite more powder quicker.
With the limited amount of powder that the 10mm has to work with, the pressure effects should never be that great. There are some that think the magnum primer will actually start the bullet moving, before the powder fully ignites because of the lack of crimp.
very good info guys, thanks a lot. I was reloading last night to see if I can get better results and increasing the powder a little. I may have increased the crimp a little to much because every 3rd or 4th round started showing a slight kink in the case and or rib. I'm thinking that or can that happen from pressing the bullet in too fast? not sure
If you are seating and applying crimp in the same station, the bullet is traveling down into the case as the casing is being squeezed it can wrinkle the case and even cause a loose fit with spring back of the casing. I always seat to depth without any crimp being applied. Then in a separate step apply the crimp so the bullet is not moving in the process, that way the casing is squeezed gently against the bullet. Doing it this way insures more uniformity providing the brass are not too long which can crimp a little bit more.
ok guess reloading will be a 6 step process now. i assume wrinkled brass is trashed or can it be saved after pulling the bullet?
It can be straighten out usually by fire forming it back...Run the wrinkled loaded round it into a LEE FCD or into the sizing die one without the decapping pin just to the point, it sort of irons out to fit the chamber. Shoot it for fun! :D Then it should be useable again.
Depending on how bad the wrinkle is, it may break out that section of brass when shot...if it does it is history! :(
OK, second test of 10mm carbine/rifle loads.
180 gr bullets, Winchester primers, and Hodgon H110 powder.
mech-tech 16 inch barrel results.
13.0 gr powder avg. 1306.5 FPS @ 682 FT LBS
13.2 gr powder avg. 1317.3 FPS @ 694 FT LBS
13.4 gr powder avg. 1315.0 FPS @ 691 FT LBS
13.6 gr powder avg. 1382.5 FPS @ 764 FT LBS
Not sure what happen at 13.4 seemed to level off when at 13.6 it showed a larger increase in performance.
Just picked up a pound of Unique and a pound of 800-X mostly for pistol shooting only, but they may work well with a lighter 135gr bullet in the 16 inch barrel.
I doubt you could get enough H-110 or 296 in the case to be a pressure issue...much like that of AA#9 :-[
Seeing them start to perform using more powder makes the powder even work better...
Good seeing you try to generate some data using the H-110.
However the IMR800X, LongShot, BlueDot and Power Pistol yield similar results with less powder, even from the pistol length barrels.
When I was developing some 9x25Dillon loads 296 just wouldn't get the bullets moving.
Cartridge 9X25 Dillon formed from Winchester 10mm cases
Loaded with 14.2 grains of Winchester 296 powder
ZERO 121 grain 0.356" JHP (these are the 38Super bullets with good copper jacket)
Gun S&W 1006 with Bar-Sto Match Grade 5.00" barrel
1209 low
1216
1284 high
Now that I have a 6" Barrel I might re run some test...
I've noticed the "twins" 296 and h110 perform better in load data with heavier bullets and the powder grains went down. I just ordered some 200 and 220 gr bullets from xtreme and if my research is correct I will get the same energy with less powder. I've seen load data that supports that due to the heavier bullets holding pressure longer for a better burn and it ends up producing better results. Also bought some Federal Magnum primers to see if that helps at all.
I would suggest that you call Hodgdon and explain what your are doing. H110/296 are magnum powders for large capacity cases and are designed to work at high pressures only. You do not have enough case capacity with the 10mm to achieve the required pressures. Operating below these pressures can be dangerous.
Call Hodgdon and let us know what they say.
Beemer, I think what he has in mind is longer heavier bullets, that will compress the powder charge somewhat and that will yield higher pressures with the same charge weight. He is correct in that the increased pressure from this would give better burn characteristics.
Quote from: The_Shadow on February 25 2014 04:44:13 PM MST
Beemer, I think what he has in mind is longer heavier bullets, that will compress the powder charge somewhat and that will yield higher pressures with the same charge weight. He is correct in that the increased pressure from this would give better burn characteristics.
The assumptions sound correct, but in my opinion we are guessing and that is something you do not do when reloading, at least I don't.
I remember the reloading books saying this about H110/296:
DO NOT REDUCE THIS LOAD! when I first started loading the magnum rounds. Maybe they have changed the powders since then.
I do know that if you look at the Hodgdon's 10mm load data sheets, I do not see any loads for H110/296
.
Quote from: BEEMER! on February 25 2014 04:28:47 PM MST
I would suggest that you call Hodgdon and explain what your are doing. H110/296 are magnum powders for large capacity cases and are designed to work at high pressures only. You do not have enough case capacity with the 10mm to achieve the required pressures. Operating below these pressures can be dangerous. Call Hodgdon and let us know what they say.
I appreciate the advice and I am well aware that H110 was not originally intended for a 10mm pistol and the few 180gr I fired from a 6 inch barrel were lack luster. Having my intentions in mind however "A heavy bullet 200+gr from a 16 inch barrel" you will see that this powder is compatible for said load only. It may not be the best choice but it is workable And I'm working it. Because there is a dynamic change in characteristics when moving from a 4.6 inch barrel to a 16 inch barrel sometimes you have to go outside the box. All 10mm load data that can be found are for pistol length barrels and releasing pressure much sooner after the bullet travels say 5 inches. If the powder manufactures would take the time to work up a 10mm rifle load there would be new data and powders I'm sure of it that are currently out there. Since this type of data isn't going to be published in any reloading manual soon one must use common sense and there scientific mind to calculate predicted results. Or you can always just give it the ole redneck try " hold my beer I'm going to try something new" ..... my attempt at being funny.
Thanks again I'll keep it safe.
Yes there was mention of the secondary explosion effect with reduced charges being too light for the cartridge. The effect was having too much free space inside the cartridge case, with the very light charge.
H-110 was what I was using in a book load for 38 Specials and even with heavy bullet and crimp it resulted in my one and only squib round. The primer fired and melted and fused the powder together, without igniting it, the bullet was pushed forward to the forcing cone of the barrel. I had to use a wooden dowel to drive the bullet back inside the cylinder, enough to allow the cylinder to swing open to clear the pistol.
Winchester used to have a loading listed in there data book, for 296 (same as H-110)
Winchester Load Data 1993 10mm 1993 Winchester load guide
180gr JHP (Winchester)
W296 DNR 12.6grs 0990 fps 22,400 psi
200gr FMJ (Winchester)
W296 DNR 11.6grs 0940 fps 23,600 psi
There was also data for a 190gr JHP bullet, which Winchester had made on special order for a large federal LE agency, but that bullet was never released to the public. Actually an FMJ bullet, so the data should be directly applicable. Seating depth of this bullet is 1.260"
190gr FMJ (Winchester)
W296 DNR 12.6grs 0970 fps 5" 22,200 psi
Reviewing this data shows just how low the pressures and velocities are for the given loads...to which I think they stopped at the velocity level rather than pushing it to higher levels.
In David's application he is reducing the amount of free space, and basically making more of a compressed loading, this can be done fairly safely with this powder to utilize its potential.
OK
I guess if it works in my 410 shotgun it should work in my .400 carbine.
I just think you have moved to far up the burn chart and Longshot or#9 or even N110 would be better choices.
Good luck
Looking over data on both sides of the 10mm looking at data for the 357 Magnum and 41 Magnum will show a correlation of sorts...their cases are longer than the 10mm so taking the amount of volume into consideration and finding the sweet spot is what David's is doing for the carbine.
357 Magnum 200 gr Sil jacketed bullet seated deep for revolvers 0.1 or 1/10" deeper than seated to the cannelure, COAL 1.590"
296 is show as 12.2 @ 1006 fps max load
H-110 is shown 12.3 grains @ 978 fps max load
357 Magnum 200 gr Sil jacketed bullet seated in cannelure for the T/C 10" BBL as seated in cannelure COAL 1.690"
296 is shown as 14.0 grains @ 1370 fps max load
H-110 is shown 14.5 grains @ 1392 fps max load
41 Magnum 200 gr jacketed bullet
296 is shown at 22.0 grains @ 1346 fps max load
H-110 is shown as 21.0 @ 1324 fps max load
The 10mm, lacks enough space, to put enough of this powder inside to ring out the velocity, but using longer barrels may take advantage of what potential is there.
Quote
"The 10mm, lacks enough space, to put enough of this powder inside to ring out the velocity, but using longer barrels may take advantage of what potential is there."
I agree with this, but you still aren't getting enough pressure to make those powders do what they are designed for. You just aren't blowing a whole bunch out the barrel end like you do with the magnums.
I hope it works for him.
Is there a available capacity calculator to determine how much room is left for powder with different bullet gr wt? Just trying to figure out mostly on the 220 gr that I just ordered. don't have one to measure yet but was wondering if there was a program online or a formula to use.
thanks,
200 and 220's arrived.
[attachment deleted by admin]
well my expectations were surpassed today testing the 200 gr bullet for the first time. The H110 powder pushed the 200 gr the same and faster than 180 gr in most cases with the equal amounts of powder. This also made the energy increase greatly.
Ran 2 tests with different primers everything else was the same : 200gr RNFP, H110 powder 13.0 - 13.4gr, 1.255 COL and mixed once fired brass. MECH TECH 16 INCH BARREL
Winchester WLP
13.0gr - 1270.3 FPS @ 717 FT LBS
13.2gr - 1311.7 FPS @ 764 FT LBS
13.4gr - 1337.3 FPS @ 794 FT LBS
Federal Magnum #155
13.0gr - 1306.6 FPS @ 758 FT LBS
13.2gr - 1322.9 FPS @ 777 FT LBS
13.4gr - 1329.5 FPS @ 785 FT LBS
Next is the 220 gr
Thanks for the data results, I'd bet the pressure is still fairly low with those as well.
Just a quick note while I still calculate. The 220gr outperformed the 200gr with less powder as I suspected.
1295.3 FPS @ 820 FT LBS
more later
Ok so here are the details started with 12.3 and worked up to 12.9 of H110. Had a new primer to try out the Remington 2 1/2 so loaded up those as well as WLP. 220gr bullet from xtreme and mixed once fired brass. MECH TECH 16 INCH BARREL
12.3gr rem2.5 - 1224.3 FPS @ 732 FT LBS
12.3gr WLP - 1226.8 FPS @ 735 FT LBS
12.5gr rem2.5 - 1223.5 FPS @ 731 FT LBS
12.5 gr WLP - 1256.8 FPS @ 772 FT LBS
12.7gr rem2.5 - 1248.8 FPS @ 762 FT LBS
12.7gr WLP - 1279.5 FPS @ 800 FT LBS
12.9gr rem2.5 - 1290.0 FPS @ 813 FT LBS ....... ONE SHOT IN 6 INCH BARREL 1064 FPS@553 FT LBS
12.9gr WLP - 1295.3 FPS @ 820 FT LBS ........ ONE SHOT IN 6 INCH BARREL 1073 FPS@563 FT LBS
Other info on different load tested
Unique 7.9gr WLP primer 180gr bullet
4.6 inch barrel - 1130.2 FPS @ 511 FT LBS
6.0 inch barrel - 1244.0 FPS @ 619 FT LBS
16 inch barrel - 1374.8 FPS @ 756 FT LBS
The Remington 2 1/2 LPP's are good to go. Glad to see the comparison of the H-110 in the 16 BBL carbine vs the 6" BBL.
Thanks for the great load data and results. 8)
Interesting experiment. It does illustrate what some of us already knew, that H110 is too slow and too bulky to produce good velocity in the 10mm. You simply can't get enough powder in the case. Those 16" loads would be good numbers if they were from a pistol barrel, but are a pretty slow for a carbine.
I second the suggestion to use Longshot or AA9. I don't think you'll find any other powders that give better results with heavy bullets, regardless of barrel length. FWIW, with AA9, I'm getting higher numbers from my 6.6" barrel than your 16" H110 results.
With a good bullet design, AA9 has about the perfect combination of bulk and burn rate for 10mm heavy bullet loads. It usually reaches max pressure right about the point where it's slightly compressed.
Here is a website that has some useful info for various barrel lengths and the velocity as tested...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html)
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 11 2014 08:48:23 AM MDT
Here is a website that has some useful info for various barrel lengths and the velocity as tested...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html)
This data is good if your using the same powder and bullet weight as the ones tested. When I try to match up what I got from a 6 inch and then 16 inch I got much larger increases than the chart shows.
I have in my stock now LONGSHOT AND BLUE DOT so it's only a matter of time before I continue, however I'm sure the velocities will exceed the plated bullets limit so I'm stuck at the moment.
I've been loading 9.3 gr of AA#5 behind a 165 gr Xtreme RNFP, in Win Brass, with a Win Primer, at an OAL of 1.246"
Now that I've massaged the Glock Block, I'm running them (approx) 99.7% thru my MG20 with maybe a 1:400 fail to feed
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h414/denstinettm14/MG20-M4_zps0701498d.jpg)
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h414/denstinettm14/Shop%20and%20Reloading/0103141124a_zpsebc66ec7.jpg)
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h414/denstinettm14/Shop%20and%20Reloading/0103141126a_zps2dbde15e.jpg)
(sorry for the poor Cell Phone Pics)
Do you have any idea how fast your pushing those plated bullets? 1500+ FPS? I have hesitated to continue using them because I would be pushing them past 1400 FPS which is beyond recommended velocity. I do have some PMC 200gr jacketed but not that many.
Sorry, I don't have a Chronograph, so I don't know the pfs
I will e-mail the Tech at Accurate Powder and ask what he feels it my be
I'll post their response.....
Here's the response I received from the Powder Guru at Accurate:
QuoteDen,
You should have a projected velocity of around 1503 FPS and a max pressure of 26967 psi.
Don W.
CSR Western Powders
406-234-0422
Thought it was getting up to 1500, but not over
I'd love to run them thru a Crono myself
All I know is; they hit the Gone pretty hard out at 100 yrds
I don't have much faith in projected velocity numbers, your actual velocity could be off by 100+ fps either direction, depending on your barrel and your load components.
With that said, my buddy's 40 S&W MechTech produces about those same numbers (165@1500, 155@1550) with warm 40 S&W loads.
Too bad dsjr hasn't been around since April. I was hoping to see some results with Blue Dot.
too damn hot here. I'll start reloading again when the weather get nice. maybe even make a video ...lol.
If anybody who has a 10mm carbine lives in or is passing through the Phoenix area and wants to help with a carbine gelatin test, let me know.