Howdy folks,
So now that I've discovered the existence of Underwood Ammo and their wonderfully full powered yet affordable loads, I'm excited to pull my Gen 3 Glock 20 (made early 2007) out from the back of the safe and start shooting it as God intended.
My question is, is the stock barrel up to the challenge of these full power loads? I'd like to save my brass for reloading in the future so I really don't want bulged cases or the dreaded Glock smiley face. Should I just spend the $165 and get a KKM (I've read it's worth the extra $$ over Lone Wolf) or not?
Any first hand experiences would be most appreciated, thanks in advance for the help/advice.
Welcome!
I'm not KKM fan (was at one time), but many folks here and elsewhere are. LWD makes a better product (IMO) at a lower price. If you want better than that, get a Bar-Sto for double the coin. If you handload (or save your brass with that intention, or for someone else), it's almost necessary to shoot through an aftermarket barrel/chamber. Glock chambers are really tough on brass, especially real rounds, like Underwood. If you only shoot commercial rounds and don't keep your brass, there's no real advantage unless you want a longer barrel. They all shoot good.
Thanks for the welcome and the help!
Could you elaborate why you aren't a fan of KKM anymore? I've read the chamber on the LWD barrels are actually a bit tighter than the KKM, but that the LWD barrels aren't finished quite as nicely as the KKM internally. I've also read unflattering comments about LWD long return/warranty process as it relates to their barrels. I've bought from LWD before without issue, just never a barrel. I'd love to save $55 bucks though! I'm most concerned with chamber support and who has the most of it. Could you share your experiences with the LWD barrel? I assume you use one.
Thanks!
I guess no matter how you slice it, an aftermarket barrel by any of the common barrel manufacturers out there will be, at least to some extent, easier on your brass than the stock barrel. That said, I don't know which Underwood load you intend to shoot, and if that load is prone to case bulging anyway. If not, you could save a whole lot more money than $55 by not going with any aftermarket barrel at all and just buy more ammo with the cash. But, I don't know.
I personally have a 6.02" Storm Lake barrel on order for my G20. Estimated ship date is August 13th. Yeah, Storm Lake costs a little more, but in my research I'ld like to think you get what you pay for. Fit and finish should be second to none. From what I've heard, chamber support is at least tied with the best. I like the idea that the rifling is broach cut as opposed to button rifled like the KKMs. And the Storm Lake is only $10 more than a KKM. Not saying KKM has issues, just that from what I've seen and heard I chose the Storm Lake. And yeah, if you order a Storm Lake barrel you may have to wait a month or so to get it, but if I don't do anything too stupid I pretty much expect it to last a lifetime. For that I'll pay a little extra up front and wait a month to get it. To each their own.
Good Luck, and let us know which way you decide to go.
As I said, they all shoot good. Ultimately, it's a matter of preference. I've heard the hype about LWD barrels being less refined, and it's bunk. I've heard the same of KKM, and it's bunk. The LWD chamber is a bit tighter than KKM, but it's not too tight, IMO. I've yet to have a chamber related issue after several thousands of rounds through the G20 alone. In fact, it performed quite admirably when the worst thing that could happen, happened. I had a KB!, twice (documented HERE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1332131), starting at post #105, with pics) The cause was defective brass, but it was what it was. I load and shoot full-on nukes on occasion, and use them for hunting rounds. The LWD tight chamber is paired with the most supported chamber I've seen, short of a custom Bar-Sto (only better if you spec it to be so). IGB is excellent too, with the option of spec'd chambers. Having shot and observed all of the above, none stands out as better, in regards to accuracy or reliability. All of them have issues under specific conditions that most shooters may never see. The only significant complaint about LWD barrels I've heard is tight chamber/throat tolerance, making it difficult to chamber long/wide oversize bullets (230 WFN, or .320" meplats at full length, for example). LWD will ream them at request. I've loaded some long/wide rounds without issue, but it could happen. Other barrels have this issue, and the solution is the same. I've dealt with their customer service and haven't had a problem. Spend more if you want, but I think they are a value, all the way around. YMMV
Beautiful. Thank you sir very much for a factual, honest post. This is the type of first person information I was looking for, I'm going to give LWD a shot.
I have both a LWD and KKM barrel. In your hand the appearance and to USB are nicer on the KKM. Both shoot very well
Another angle to co wider is LMD is just that a DISTRIBUTOR not the manufacturer. They do not make the barrel.what they offer is amde over seas.
While KKM is American made and quality in both product and service after the sale. When I bought mine they where out of stock. I was told I had a 2 mo wait the barrel came in before I was told. Unlike my first LW barrel that took almost 6 MONTHS on back order....
Here is some pics;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/0f5572d2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/50a59b09.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/aa6ee61d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/b189d4e4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/b284c4f0.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/526fd014.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/cd792543.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/fb2afa2e.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/fffa7dfd.jpg)
CW
Nice pics. Thanks for the picture comparison!
I just shot a bunch of Underwood through my new, stock G20sf. Absolutely zero case problems. The spent shells are impossible to tell apart from the BVAC ammo I was also shooting, without looking at the headstamp. They also cycled flawlessly and were accurate.
Quote from: walrus108 on July 24 2012 08:46:09 PM MDT
I just shot a bunch of Underwood through my new, stock G20sf. Absolutely zero case problems. The spent shells are impossible to tell apart from the BVAC ammo I was also shooting, without looking at the headstamp. They also cycled flawlessly and were accurate.
Very good to hear! Thanks for filling in those of us not in the know.
Was the "bunch of Underwood" all the same load, or different ones? And, which?
CWlongshot Look at the locking lugs of the picture you posted...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Glock/526fd014.jpg)
There is a small step in the Glock Factory and Lone Wolf barrels that is not present on the KKM's forward section of the locking lug...Its hard to tell in this picture but this is the cut for the Recoil Rod to set into, the KKM appears to have just a notch with out open ends as compared to the Factory and LWD barrels.
I shoot the underwood 220's in my stocker, but I did purchase a Storm Lake 6" months ago. I purchased it, but I have not recieved it. If I had to re-do it, I'd go Barsto. Storm Lake is slow as shit, and I'm impatient!
Quote from: REDLINE on July 24 2012 10:28:44 PM MDT
Quote from: walrus108 on July 24 2012 08:46:09 PM MDT
I just shot a bunch of Underwood through my new, stock G20sf. Absolutely zero case problems. The spent shells are impossible to tell apart from the BVAC ammo I was also shooting, without looking at the headstamp. They also cycled flawlessly and were accurate.
Very good to hear! Thanks for filling in those of us not in the know.
Was the "bunch of Underwood" all the same load, or different ones? And, which?
Sorry I skipped that important info. They were all the 135gr Nosler @ 1600fps rating.
Quote from: walrus108 on July 25 2012 12:08:11 AM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on July 24 2012 10:28:44 PM MDT
Quote from: walrus108 on July 24 2012 08:46:09 PM MDT
I just shot a bunch of Underwood through my new, stock G20sf. Absolutely zero case problems. The spent shells are impossible to tell apart from the BVAC ammo I was also shooting, without looking at the headstamp. They also cycled flawlessly and were accurate.
Very good to hear! Thanks for filling in those of us not in the know.
Was the "bunch of Underwood" all the same load, or different ones? And, which?
Sorry I skipped that important info. They were all the 135gr Nosler @ 1600fps rating.
Thanks for specifying. 8)
Quote from: hillbillyhans on July 24 2012 11:49:21 PM MDT
I did purchase a Storm Lake 6" months ago. I purchased it, but I have not recieved it. If I had to re-do it, I'd go Barsto. Storm Lake is slow as shit, and I'm impatient!
:o Whoa!!! I put my order in for a 10mm chambered 6" from Storm Lake (for a G20) the last day of June (this year :D) and they gave me an estimated ship date of 8-13-12.
Did they start out telling you it would be a month and a half out too, and from there it has dragged on to 6 months?
In other words, should I be geared up for a run around time frame wise? Like maybe I'll be lucky to get it around New Year's Day or later? Wow, just can't believe the 6 month thing! Jeepers, it's just a barrel, not a whole custom gun. Sorry for the rant. It just seems beyond unreasonable, and then with me having one in the pipeline...
About 16mo ago I bought a 9mm/40 LWD conversion barrel for my G23.... Took over 6mo for me to see it!!! NOT GOOD!!!
This LWD came off ebay and was received in 6-7 days... The KKM was about a three week wait. BUT I was told it would be a month!
The difference is KKM makes there own barrels.. SL and LWD are waiting for a third party offshore source for there products...
CW
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 25 2012 03:30:37 AM MDT
About 16mo ago I bought a 9mm/40 LWD conversion barrel for my G23.... Took over 6mo for me to see it!!! NOT GOOD!!!
This LWD came off ebay and was received in 6-7 days... The KKM was about a three week wait. BUT I was told it would be a month!
The difference is KKM makes there own barrels.. SL and LWD are waiting for a third party offshore source for there products...
CW
Where did you get your information from regarding Storm Lake using a 3rd party offshore source for there barrels?
I just spoke with April at Storm Lake and she assured me that not only are all their barrels manufactured in-house in Tennessee where their facility is, but that they get their 416R barrel steel from a USA source. So either I just got lied to, or your information is incorrect.
I also asked her about some people waiting 6 months or more for a barrel compared to the one and a half months they claim for my barrel. She said it is absolutely possible you could wait up to and over 6 months for a barrel. She said their production schedule is set for many months out. She said the barrel that I ordered just happens to be able to fit in perfectly with a production run coming up in 3 weeks from now, hence the estimated ship date of 8-13-12.
So evidently, when you order a barrel direct through Storm Lake, yours will be produced when the next production run for that barrel is scheduled, having nothing to do with any offshore-source nonsense.
LWD I didn't inquire about. They may very well depend on offshore sources. I have no idea.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 25 2012 02:13:22 PM MDT
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 25 2012 03:30:37 AM MDT
About 16mo ago I bought a 9mm/40 LWD conversion barrel for my G23.... Took over 6mo for me to see it!!! NOT GOOD!!!
This LWD came off ebay and was received in 6-7 days... The KKM was about a three week wait. BUT I was told it would be a month!
The difference is KKM makes there own barrels.. SL and LWD are waiting for a third party offshore source for there products...
CW
Where did you get your information from regarding Storm Lake using a 3rd party offshore source for there barrels?
I just spoke with April at Storm Lake and she assured me that not only are all their barrels manufactured in-house in Tennessee where their facility is, but that they get their 416R barrel steel from a USA source. So either I just got lied to, or your information is incorrect.
I also asked her about some people waiting 6 months or more for a barrel compared to the one and a half months they claim for my barrel. She said it is absolutely possible you could wait up to and over 6 months for a barrel. She said their production schedule is set for many months out. She said the barrel that I ordered just happens to be able to fit in perfectly with a production run coming up in 3 weeks from now, hence the estimated ship date of 8-13-12.
So evidently, when you order a barrel direct through Storm Lake, yours will be produced when the next production run for that barrel is scheduled, having nothing to do with any offshore-source nonsense.
LWD I didn't inquire about. They may very well depend on offshore sources. I have no idea.
Back when I was researching buying aft mkt barrels, I ran across a couple threads on various sites claiming this. I admit no first hand knoledge off it. IIRC GT has a big thread on these barrels... I'll see if I can find it and PM you the link.
SL seemed to run hot and cold, meaning people liked it or hated it. Too many bad stories so I went with LWD... then I read of them using "china" barrels... When I got my G20 I looked at some of the big name barrels and then decided on KKM. Truth be told, both my LWD barrels have been just fine, I like the KKM better. Maybe its just because its a USA made barrel and that alone makes it better in my head...
As I said, If I can find the thread I'll PM you.
CW
That's okay. Just wanted to set the record straight with Storm Lake.
They never told me anything! I bought it, and expected it a week later at the most! I'm very disappointed with their customer service, and wouldn't buy shit from them if they were the last place on earth!
Quote from: hillbillyhans on July 26 2012 06:51:16 PM MDT
They never told me anything! I bought it, and expected it a week later at the most! I'm very disappointed with their customer service, and wouldn't buy shit from them if they were the last place on earth!
Anytime you click
PURCHASE on the Storm Lake website it immediately tells you the following;
STOCK STATUS:
StormLake is a manufacturer, and we rely on our distributor/dealer network to maintain stock that is available for immediate purchase. We encourage customers to purchase through an authorized dealer, but we will be happy to accept an order if the item cannot be found in dealer stock. Our online inventory database is designed such that an item cannot be placed in the shopping cart unless it is either in stock or at some stage of production, but the shopping cart logic does not provide real time finished part stock status. Once you place your order, the order processor checks finished stock availability and if out of stock schedules the item into production with the goal of minimum possible customer wait time. You will receive an email after the order processor has scheduled your order, where you can then log in to check on the estimated ship date. In stock items are typically shipped within 4 business days of order. Standard lead time for items out of stock but scheduled into production is currently 45 days or less. Orders for parts with black Isonite QPQ finish may require up to an additional 30 days. Special order item lead times are quoted on a per order basis. Order status can be checked at any time by logging in to your account.Maybe they didn't have that up there when you purchased?
Yeah, I never got that. Wonder what happened? Should've gone Barsto. Oh well, lesson learned.
That is a bit odd. Then again, I've never clicked PURCHASE on their sight before until putting in my current order almost 30 days ago now. For all I know they just put that up there 31 days ago.
I should be picking up the same gun on Friday, would anyone recommend replacing the recoil spring/ guide rod? Is there any other mods anyone recommends?
Quote from: DM1906 on July 17 2012 11:53:16 PM MDT
I've heard the hype about LWD barrels being less refined, and it's bunk. I've heard the same of KKM, and it's bunk. The LWD chamber is a bit tighter than KKM, but it's not too tight, IMO. ... The LWD tight chamber is paired with the most supported chamber I've seen, short of a custom Bar-Sto (only better if you spec it to be so).
Your experiences with LW barrels are quite different than mine. I've owned 3 - a G23 barrel from 7-8 years ago, and two G20 long barrels of recent production. All had fairly rough bores that needed some polishing to be good for cast bullets. Both of the G20 barrels had chambers that were too tight for cast bullets. They worked when clean, but not when dirty, so I lapped the chamber on the one I kept. Also, chamber support is pretty similar to a stock G20 barrel. This seems to be the case with their newer barrels. Yours is probably older, but you're giving advice to someone considering buying a new barrel. The lathe turned finish on the outside of my G20 barrels was pretty rough too; not jagged edges but it was obviously finished with a pretty coarse cut on the lathe, and not ground to final diameter or finished in any other way. I smoothed that out on my barrel to avoid excessive slide wear.
Long story short, LW makes an economy barrel, that is good for the price, but nowhere near the quality of the stock Glock barrel or a better aftermarket barrel.
I recommend looking at EFK Firedragon barrels; the samples I've seen have a very smooth and consistent bore and seem to be good quality.
Yondering,
I believe in another post you mentioned having a LW G20 Longslide....just curious as to your opinion on the long slide product. I'd be interested in one if they ever become an 'in stock' item. Thanks.
I like mine, and haven't had any issues with it. Mine has the black oxide finish, which isn't very good, but otherwise has been great. It's heavy, but it reduces recoil quite a bit, is pretty accurate, and still functions fine even with weak 40 S&W ammo. It's definitely a whole different gun compared to a stock G20. Mine is the solid top version.
The one thing I'd do differently, just because I'm an experimenter by nature, is that I'd get the G21 solid top longslide instead of the 20; so I could run both the 10mm and 45 barrels in it, and play with 45 Super. As a side benefit, the G21L slides seem to be in stock most of the time.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Glock%2020-21/IMG_0029.jpg)
This being my first Glock I'll admit to little knowledge of the differences and options for models. I know the 20 and 21 share the same frame size and the 10mm & 45 barrels are supposedly the same OD but that's about it. So, I could buy a 21 long slide and use the ~ 6 inch 10mm threaded barrel with compensator? Anything different in the parts for the slide between the models? I'd rather have a complete slide to change for an easy swap back to OEM. Excuse my ignorance but even in my dotage I still try to learn. ;)
Nothing wrong with asking questions here, fire away!
You're pretty much right on about the common parts between the 20 and 21. The extractor and safety plunger are different between the 10mm and 45 slides, and the 45 slide has a wider breech face. The only external difference between the 10mm and 45 barrels is the width of the barrel hood, which is supposed to locate the barrel side to side in the slide. With the 10mm barrel in a 45 slide, there is a gap on either side of the barrel hood, but the barrel is still located by the inner walls of the slide, so it works fine. The 45 extractor (in a 45 slide) works fine with 10mm, as long as it is the LCI (loaded chamber indicator) version. Extraction of the 10mm from the 45 slide is "different", in that it doesn't throw them all in the same direction, but it seems to be reliable, and I haven't had a problem with it.
I use my 10mm barrel in my RMR'ed G21 slide, or in my G20LS longslide. It shoots accurately and reliably either way. One caution note though - if using full power 10mm in a stock G21 slide, I strongly recommend using a muzzle brake. The 21 slide is lighter, and slide speed can be too high without a muzzle brake. The 21 longslide should be fine though, as it is still heavier than a stock 20 slide. I would get the solid top version if going with the 21 longslide, for the extra weight.
Here's mine, same frame and barrel as above, but in the 45 slide.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Glock%2020-21/IMG_0030.jpg)
And a picture of the 10mm barrel hood in the 45 slide:
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Glock%2020-21/IMG_0527.jpg)
Lots of great info here!
Quote from: Yondering on August 01 2012 10:26:48 PM MDT
Nothing wrong with asking questions here, fire away!
With the 10mm barrel in a 45 slide, there is a gap on either side of the barrel hood, but the barrel is still located by the inner walls of the slide, so it works fine. The 45 extractor (in a 45 slide) works fine with 10mm, as long as it is the LCI (loaded chamber indicator) version. Extraction of the 10mm from the 45 slide is "different", in that it doesn't throw them all in the same direction, but it seems to be reliable, and I haven't had a problem with it.
I use my 10mm barrel in my RMR'ed G21 slide, or in my G20LS longslide. It shoots accurately and reliably either way. One caution note though - if using full power 10mm in a stock G21 slide, I strongly recommend using a muzzle brake.
Just so I'm following clearly, a compensator is the same as a 'muzzle brake'? I'm not sure about the meaning of RMR. Any recommendation of rod and recoil spring? I may put an order in today as LW shows the 21 long slide as being in stock and the barrel available later this month. Gives time for getting the slide parts and some kind of finish. Thanks for taking the time for the photos and advice.
Quote from: EdMc on August 02 2012 07:36:30 AM MDT
Just so I'm following clearly, a compensator is the same as a 'muzzle brake'? I'm not sure about the meaning of RMR.
Backwards order:
http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product1.php?id=RMR
RMR is Ruggedized Miniature Reflex and is a type of optical sighting system.
And yes, muzzle brake and compensator both redirect excess gasses to reduce recoil and muzzle movement.
Mine in
BoldQuote from: EdMc on August 02 2012 07:36:30 AM MDT
Just so I'm following clearly, a compensator is the same as a 'muzzle brake'?
Yes, two words for the same thing. Not the same as "porting" though, like the ported barrel in a G20C, or the ported barrels LW sells. Don't waste your time with those.
I'm not sure about the meaning of RMR.
What sqbullet said. The red dot mounted on my 21 slide.
Any recommendation of rod and recoil spring?
You need to run a LW rod and ISMI spring with the LW longslide, and use their "special washer" on the rod. Ask for a couple washers for spares. I run the 24 lb ISMI spring, because it's not that much stiffer than stock, the "24lb" label is just advertising. It works with 40 S&W all the way up to full power heavy 10mm.
I may put an order in today as LW shows the 21 long slide as being in stock and the barrel available later this month. Gives time for getting the slide parts and some kind of finish. Thanks for taking the time for the photos and advice.
Quote from: Yondering on August 02 2012 10:27:21 AM MDT
Mine in Bold
Quote from: EdMc on August 02 2012 07:36:30 AM MDT
Just so I'm following clearly, a compensator is the same as a 'muzzle brake'?
Yes, two words for the same thing. Not the same as "porting" though, like the ported barrel in a G20C, or the ported barrels LW sells. Don't waste your time with those.
I'm not sure about the meaning of RMR.
What sqbullet said. The red dot mounted on my 21 slide. It is mounted low in the slide so the iron sights are still visible through the glass, and co-index with the dot.
Any recommendation of rod and recoil spring?
You need to run a LW rod and ISMI spring with the LW longslide, and use their "special washer" on the rod. Ask for a couple washers for spares. I run the 24 lb ISMI spring, because it's not that much stiffer than stock, the "24lb" label is just advertising. It works with 40 S&W all the way up to full power heavy 10mm.
I may put an order in today as LW shows the 21 long slide as being in stock and the barrel available later this month. Gives time for getting the slide parts and some kind of finish. Thanks for taking the time for the photos and advice.
Okay, I'm old but I'm not hard of seeing. Once was enough. ;D Just kidding, I don't see well. ;)
I thought they were the same just wanted to be sure. (compensator/brake) Same rod/spring for the 20 or 21? Just so I'll know what to ask for and one last question, I hope. Any major fitting issues with the slide to barrel? Thanks again.
:D I put mine in bold just to make it stand out from your quote.
Yeah, same rod for 20 and 21.
Shouldn't be any fitting issues, as long as the parts are within spec. The 10mm or 45 barrels are both a drop in fit to the 21 slide. Although, you might find the internal chamber dimensions of the LW barrel are too tight, that seems hit and miss.
Okay, it's all ordered. Stay around in case I need someone to blame...... ;D
Quote from: EdMc on August 02 2012 01:32:24 PM MDT
Okay, it's all ordered. Stay around in case I need someone to blame...... ;D
Cool, my plan is coming together. Now when it doesn't work, I'll offer to buy it for half price. ;D
WOW! Half price....I can't lose. :-*
What's the best place for the slide internal parts? Shipping, in stock, price etc?
Quote from: EdMc on August 02 2012 07:15:13 PM MDT
WOW! Half price....I can't lose. :-*
What's the best place for the slide internal parts? Shipping, in stock, price etc?
Numrich (http://www.gunpartscorp.com). Call the phone number before you place the order, and the recording will give a code to knock down the shipping if you continue online.
Good deal. Thanks.
I've found Lone Wolf is actually pretty good too, for OEM Glock parts. The diagrams on their site are convenient.