In the market for an AR type rifle. Torn between an Ar15 in 5.56 or an AR10 in .308. It would be for self defense. I've concluded a carbine suits me better than a shotgun.
I'm waiting for my new place to be finished. It's on acreage in the boonies, near an evergreen forested National Forest. Not sure what kind of neighbors I have Haha, but I'm considering the possibility the "new guy" might have his security tested in this tough economy.
I've read 5.56 platforms are lighter to carry and are effective against people. The .308 attracts me since I like "heavy and fast".
I've picked out some decent platforms to consider, but what are your thoughts on which caliber to go with? Thanks.
I am a fan of 308. I opted for a CETME sporter and have been very happy with it so far. I picked up 50mags for it from cheaper than dirt when they were selling the surplus G3 mags for .97 each.
AR10. Hands down. There's a reason some of the infantry divisions have busted out some of the old M14's. .308 is awesome for self-defense, and is a great hunting platform. Not much that caliber can't do.
I'm leaning toward a .308. I'm not sure what I'd be defending against. I plan on having my California tags off the cars, so long range snipers won't be likely. <- That's a joke.
I imagine I'd be using the carbine for defense within the home and possibly large animals on the grounds near the house. I've read follow-up shots are faster with the 5.56. The .308 might be more versatile since I can have different loads in different magazines.
In the AR platform, I think everything is quick on the follow-up. .308 is a mild cartridge anyway.
I would like to build a .308 AR next.
Thanks for the responses. I know it's a question that's asked often.
Looks like I can load 110gr ammo for home defense. And have the option of using standard weights against animals or when I'm hunting.
So, I'm buying a AR10 style rifle.
'Rick1987' Building one sounds interesting. What were you thinking about doing?
IMO you are making the right choice with the .308. I've never understood defending one's self with a varmint round against stuff waaaaaaaaaaay bigger than varmints.
You shoot a bad guy with a varmint cartridge and it MIGHT faze him. You get any decent shot placement with a good .308 load and it will usually faze him bigtime. I know there are exceptions to ever rule but I don't like the odds for exceptions to the rule with varmint cartridges.
Someday when I can afford one I intend to have a FNH SCAR 17S (it's chambered for .308 but recoils similarly to a .223). They sure don't give them away, but near as I can tell you get what you pay for in them.
Let us know what you end up choosing.
Go with the 308. As Hillbilly stated above both the Army and Marine Corp have gone back to limited use of the M-14 in Afghanistan. Hits harder at a longer range so to speak. The heavier 30 cal bullet is less easily deflected by foliage, etc. I always thought the AK (30 cal) was a better weapon than the M-16 (.223) I was issued in RVN.
Ed, I'm with you. I love the AK. I prefer it over the AR platform. Some good sites, put the charging handle on the RIGHT (left) side, and get some good mags............Look out! The AK doesn't mind being dirty, and it eats shitty soviet ammo like it's goin outta style!
If I were getting a .308 it would be an M14/Springfield. Ask any designated marksman if he would rather have his decked out AR (supposed to blend in with everyone else, his AR is superior to a grunt's) or an M14. If I were a bettin man I would put my money on him goin with the M14.
The FN SCAR and the Springfield are similar in price so it all depends on what platform you like.
A side note for anyone who cares: I believe the M14 came back into service the same week the first recorded "hand-to-hand" situation happened. This was in Fallujah. The Marine took care of the brave (read stupid) Iraqi in a matter of seconds (no surprise), and I believe the first M14 went to some chalk leader with the 2nd Rangers. Could be mistaken on that last part, but think that's accurate.
"If I were getting a .308 it would be an M14/Springfield."
I agree, as I own a Springfield M1A Scout. Went through Basic with a M-14 back.....well, a long time ago. I didn't mention it as Harrygunner wanted a AR platform. Today it seems most want the 'Black Rifle' over the older wood and steel. Your money, your choice. ;D
The new "Socoms" have rails for goodies/scopes whatever.
Having said that the AR is much more "modular". Don't know if that's the right word, but the "user" can fix/replace/repair anything on an AR within a short amount of time. Parts are plentiful, and used to be cheap. I don't own one anymore, but I get to see them from time to time, when a friend needs something done.
EdMc and hillbillyhans; If an AK could be had chambered in 7.62x51mm I think I'ld be all over one. No doubt I see more merit in a 7.62x39mm than I do a 5.56x45mm, I'ld just prefer something decent, or better, chambered in 7.62x51mm. Not making an arguement here, just a IMO general thought.
I think someone makes AKs using 308. Seems I remember seeing some ads in Shotgun News or somewhere. The AK and the M16A1 were made for close quarters combat. The very light weight of the M16A1 was it's main attribute.....the A2 and later versions had a heavier barrel for a longer effective range but increased the weight of the weapon. The military term for the M-14 was 'battle rifle'.........some called it more of a target rifle. ;) Basically a redesign of the M-1 Garand to use a detachable box mag, chambered in a shorter round (308) than 30/06 and capable of full auto fire. Just as in a pistol as you decrease the barrel length you lose velocity and effective range. Keep in mind that the less the ammo weighs the less weight the individual soldier has to carry. Just my opinion but the 7.62X39 round is a good match for the size of the AK.......in 308 you've lost some of the advantages of the 308 due to barrel length and have increased the the weight of an already not too light weapon. Anyway, I do own an AK and a bunch of ChiCom ammo in spam cans. ;D
Quote from: REDLINE on July 25 2012 12:39:46 AM MDT
EdMc and hillbillyhans; If an AK could be had chambered in 7.62x51mm I think I'ld be all over one. No doubt I see more merit in a 7.62x39mm than I do a 5.56x45mm, I'ld just prefer something decent, or better, chambered in 7.62x51mm. Not making an arguement here, just a IMO general thought.
You are looking for this (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct455.aspx).
I tend to agree with EdMc though. A 16" barrel is certainly NOT maximizing the performance potential of the 308. It will still beat the 7.62X39, but only by a couple hundred fps.
Thanks guys! I was aware of the Saigas. I was thinking 7.62x51 in a traditional wood-stocked/pistol-gripped AK-47 look. The Saiga does seem to be a perfectly fine weapon though.
I fondled a FN SCAR 17S yesterday.
When looking for a solution, it's important to identify the problem. I'm buying a rifle for self-defense in and around the home and land, defense against bears on my land and possible economic unrest motivated attacks/robberies. There's no large city nearby and the closest medium sized city it 50+ miles away. One can look to history to see having a good rifle could be important. But, in my lifetime, I haven't been in a battle, no military experience and no domestic firefights. :)
Since there's no specific threat, the FN is interesting since it was designed for handling from close by to out to 500+ yd kinds of problems.
Looking for a good rifle that will serve me well for years to come. I don't like having lots of things I don't use. Don't own a lot of guns, so won't be buying a lot of rifles. It's easy to identify the "better" rifles, but choosing one is the interesting part. These kinds of rifles appear to bring with them a whole new arena to learn about.
I'd buy a LMT 308
I like the M1A for myself. Several variants of different length barrels etc. Trained with rifle in the military and always liked it. But this me, not you. You may prefer the AR platform or some of the many other rifles available.
Quote from: harrygunner on October 12 2012 06:06:36 PM MDT
I fondled a FN SCAR 17S yesterday.
I'ld sure like to get my hands on one myself. Though I do wish it was realistically in my near future to purchase one too. Unfortunately not. :( Someday though. :)
QuoteI don't like having lots of things I don't use.
I don't either and that's how I prefer it.
QuoteI'd buy a LMT 308
It's on my list to investigate. The better ones have been identified: Noveske N6, Rock River LAR-308, Colt LE901-16S.
Generally, my new task is to understand which will best meet my needs.
About the FN SCAR 17S, it was not as heavy as it looks; it does not have nor needs a 'forward assist'; the folding stock allows it to be transported more discretely; it is based on a rifle that has been adopted for military use.
One rifle is going to cost a bundle for magazines, ammo, a scope or two and training. But, if something serious happens, my handguns won't cut it. Looking forward to extending my knowledge a bit more. Thanks.
Have you considered something in .300 AAC Blackout? It uses standard AR-15 mags and supersonic ammo matches the 7.62x39mm ballistics...
Quote from: harrygunner on October 13 2012 03:58:58 PM MDT
About the FN SCAR 17S, it was not as heavy as it looks; it does not have nor needs a 'forward assist'; the folding stock allows it to be transported more discretely; it is based on a rifle that has been adopted for military use.
Another great attribute of the SCAR 17S is with its unique design it recoils little more than similar platforms set up for .223, and much less than other similar platforms in .308. IMO that's some serious icing on the cake, on top of making good use of .308 in the first place, as opposed to a varmint cartridge.
QuoteHave you considered something in .300 AAC Blackout?
Thanks for the suggestion. Since this rifle will fill several roles, I want to stay with standard NATO rounds.
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REDLINE, I like the SCAR 17S so far. I'm pressuring myself to keep an open mind as I learn more about BRs (black rifles). But, it doesn't appear to be a wrong buy.
Yeah, I've done a fair amount of research on the various .380 platforms myself. I always find myself going back to the SCAR 17S. They cost a lot, but I can't find anything wrong with them either, while at the same time they appear to offer worthwhile benefits not found in any other. I'm to the point of being able to say that if I had the money for one right now, I would own one right now. But I don't, so it will simply stay on the "list" for now. At some point though I do expect to own one.......or two. :D
Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in 308 the link below gets you an accurate reasonably priced with tremendous reliability and versatility. Did I mention and simple and very rugged. If I had one and only one this is the one.
http://www.ruger.com/products/gunsiteScoutRifle/index.html
It is easy to carry and with a Trijicon scope you can shoot to very long distances. 10 round mags too boot.
The other I would consider is this Styer Scout Rifle
http://www.steyrarms.com/products/hunting-rifles/scout/
Outside of semi-autos you make a great point.
Quote from: harrygunner on October 15 2012 02:40:35 AM MDT
REDLINE, I like the SCAR 17S so far. I'm pressuring myself to keep an open mind as I learn more about BRs (black rifles). But, it doesn't appear to be a wrong buy.
Another option to consider...just came across a relatively new 7.62x51mm offering by SIG SAUER called the 716 Patrol. Seems to be a quality piece.
20rnd capacity, 16" chrome lined, Magpul PMAGs (probably easier to come by than proprietary designs), MIL-SPEC trigger group, used a short stroke pushrod operating system with 4 position gas valve, telescoping stock WITH cheek piece, M1913 Mil-Std rail, aluminum quad rail forend, 3 color choices, and is capable of MOA @ 100 yards. Also, they say it's "tight", where you won't hear or feel all the rattling around type sounds associated with most of the production line AR15/AR10 family of rifles.
It's fairly heavy at 9.3 pounds w/o a mag (SCAR 17S is 8.0 pounds), but the kicker is that it comes in at an MSRP of $2132, which is almost $1000 less than the FNH SCAR
For closer comparison and pics:
FNH SCAR 17S - http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/law-enforcement/carbines/scar-series/scar-17s/ (http://www.fnhusa.com/l/products/law-enforcement/carbines/scar-series/scar-17s/)
SIG SAUER 716 Patrol - http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/rifles-sig716.aspx (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/rifles-sig716.aspx)
Doesn't really seem like either would be a wrong buy, with more or less a give and take of weight vs price between the two, with other various differences.
(http://www.fnhusa.com/files/4313/4488/2581/scar_17s_large.png)
(http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/716-FDE-Patrol-hero-detail.jpg)
We think alike.
Also held a Sig 716 while in the store. The clerk gave me pricing on it and the FN. The 716 is $1859. The SCAR is $2899.
Still leaning toward the FN SCAR for the reasons I've listed.
Funny, I struggle with the idea of a 'forward assist'. I reminds me of whale tails on Porsche 911s, implying in my mind, the original design wasn't up to the task. :)
Do appreciate the suggestions. Looks like it's going to take something exceptional to throw the FN SCAR 17S off the top of my list.
We're definately on the same page.
Thanks for listing the street pricing.
And I agree, even though the SIG option is nothing to sneeze at, there is no question the FNH SCAR 17S still holds top spot on my list too. I can't imagine a future 7.62x51 platform that would change that. Not saying it wouldn't be cool as heck for one to appear, just that FNH has the bar set pretty high at this time.
Someday I expect to have one. 8) It just won't be tomorrow. :(
LMT
(California Legal Price $2919) MWS .308 upper receiver with 16" chrome-lined 1:10" twist .308 barrel, standard semi-auto bolt carrier group, tactical charging handle assembly, LM308MWS lower with SOPMOD buttstock, two-stage trigger group, ambi selector and ambi mag release. Complete weapon ships with a sling, operator's manual, tactical adjustable rear sight, tactical front sight, (1) twenty-round magazine, (2) heavy duty push button swivels(included as of 2011 orders), torque wrench/driver and (3) rail panels. You must have a current Federal Firearms License on file to purchase complete weapons or serialized parts. OPTIONS: 20" Chromelined barrel instead of 16" same pricing Direct Gas Impingement Overall length with SOPMOD collapsed: 35" Overall length with SOPMOD extended: 38" A2 Birdcage compensator 5/8 X 24 thread pitch Low profile gas block Cryogenically treated barrel to increase accuracy, barrel life and easier cleaning 5 QD Sling Swivel attachment points Electronically tested and recorded trigger pull Weight: 9-98 lbs empty
Also LWRC R.E.P.R.
Caliber: 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester
Barrel Length: 12.7", 16.1", 18", 20"
Weight (unloaded): 9.5lbs (16.1"), 10.5lbs (18"), 11.25lbs (20")
Length (overall): 40.8" (16.1"), 41.5"(20")
Rate of Fire: 55 RPM (Sustained ROF)
Rifling: 1/10" RH; 1/11.25" RH (Optional)
Stock/Pistol Grip: 12" and 16" B5 Systems SOPMOD, 18" Magpul UBR, 20" Magpul PRS/Magpul MIAD
Sights: LWRCI Folding BUIS Front and Rear
Magazine: Magpul 20 rd. PMAG 20LR
Muzzle Device: A2 Birdcage 5/8x24 TPI
Colors Available: Black, Flat Dark Earth, Olive Drab Green, Patriot Brown
Nice suggestions. Thanks.
I'm also going to locate a trainer and ask them what they look for in a rifle.
I am a big siaga (AK) fan myself. I started out with the 7.62 x 39 for the usual reasons and then thought wel might as well have a .223. I always wanted a .308 but thought the weight, recoil etc. recently I purchase a vepr type 1 as they were cheap 599 from centerfiresystems. these weapons are a step above any AK out there as the receivers are thicker, barrel thicker cold hammer forged and trunion reinforced. the thumb hole stock is functional and the walnut is nice. Now the recoil is soooo soft almost the same as the 7.62 x 39 but the accuracy stock with irons is surprising. I went with the 20 inch barrel for noise reduction and to take advantage of added velocity. All i can say is its a weaon that has to be seen, handled and shot to appeciate. I am not a big on hanging stuff of my weapons but a scope will be in order as it will only enhance an already sweet shooting weapon.