This will be a several month project, but I thought I would get a start on documenting it now.
I recently picked up a Para P12-45 with a steel frame. The intention is to replace the top end with a commander length 10mm slide/barrel.
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/p12_orig.jpg)
First steps were to upgrade the thumb safety and the grip safety. The thumb safety went in with minimal fitting and has a nice positive on/off snick.
The high ride grip safety is much more involved. The frame had to be radius cut to a .250" radius, and then relieved since the grip safety is a high ride, and the current one is not. Then the whole thing had to be blended.
I had done this previously on my P16-40 conversion, so I had the .250" jig. I detail stripped the gun, put the jig in and taped up the frame so it wouldn't get marred by the vice. Then I went to work with an 8" bastard file. About an hour later I had the radius cut.
The safety fit right up, but wouldn't quite clear the trigger. First I removed some metal from the top of the safety where it pivots up and hits the frame. This allowed enough travel for the end of the grip safety (memory bump end) to start hitting the frame, so I removed a little metal from the safety there. Finally I took a couple thousandths off the actual safety arm so it would clear the trigger, and I had good function.
Now it was time to blend. There is a bunch of extra metal on the frame that has to be removed and then the hole thing has to be blended. Also, this safety didn't blend on the top of the frame. Function was fine, but it left a little lip that needed removed.
Trick here is to go slowly and remove just a little metal at a time. And also to recognized that the grip safety is going to going to get messed with during blending. It will get sanded back out with the frame once the metal removal is over.
Here is the finished blended grip safety.
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/p12_leftBack_20120728.jpg)
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/p12_rightBack_20120728.jpg)
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/p12_left_20120728.jpg)
Next up is a light sandblasting and a trip to the parkerizing tank, then a coat of Cerakote. Maybe this Saturday, but might be a few weeks.
I'ld wish you luck, but you're such a natural at these sort of projects. Well, Good Luck anyway! I'll be keeping an eye on the progress as you post it and patiently wait to see how the finished product turns out.
Not sure I am a natural...Just too broke to pay someone else to build the guns I want :P
That looks like it will be a neat package, carry on! :)
Here is a shot of the frame with the old grip safety. Gives some perspective to how much higher up on the weapon you get with a high ride safety.
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/p12OrigGripSafety.jpg)
You can see on the grip safety the markings where the old tang was.
Dude, that's sweet. I think I may need to find one to bastardize. Lol
Just a few points I learned from my conversion from .45 ACP to 10mm. Please understand, I haven't seen your plans and this info is given just to be supportive.
Knowledgeable gunsmiths agree a 1911 style gun can handle the 10mm. The stress areas on a 10mm 1911 would be on the barrel lugs and the slide. I went with a STI slide because they are well built. No one was concerned about a forged, steel frame handling the stronger round.
Going to be more complicated than the P16-40 conversion. In addition to the slide, barrel and bushing, you'll need to change the ejector and the slide stop.
The unknown is the effect of the feed ramp geometry. The shape is different between .45 ACP and the '9mm, .40 S&W, .38 Super' group. One has a chance to try different magazines with standard 1911's to compensate. The Para may dictate the set of magazines you can test with. Hopefully, the gun will feed reliably and you can avoid going with milling the frame for a ramped barrel.
Then, there's the $15 flat firing pin stop that helps a lot in slowing the Commander length slide.
Wish I had the patience to smith a gun. Please keep up the progress reports.
STI slide is already on the way. Found one that a gunsmith had ordered and the customer didn't like and got it for $170.
EGW FPS is a must, plus a 25 lb mainspring to tame the slide. Based on Ned Christensens testing this should put the frame batttering back in to the same realm as 45 ACP is. Plan on a 20 lb recoil spring.
All Para frames are already cut for a ramped barrel. The Clark/Para cut in fact :D No frame milling required as it is already cut for the barrel I want.
I plan to build a whole new top-end, not re-using any of the 45 acp top end. This will give me a multi-caliber set-up.
Magazine is the area that I see possibly being a real challenge. I don't see a huge challenge on the feeding end of things, as the mags in my current P16 work fine and I expect/hope they will feed a commander length top end just as well.
No, the issue is the other end. I will have to modify a magazine to get the right length. Plan right now is to use a Mec-Gar body I have that has good feed lips for Para 40/10mm but a blown out base. I plan to chop it to the correct length and rebend the bottom to properly hold the base pad. That may prove to be a challenge. Or not. Just not something I have done before.
Nice that Para's come with ramped barrels.
The .45 ACP magazines may work well with the 10mm conversion. Was hard to tell the difference as I switched between .45 and 10mm mags during my tweaking phase. The main difference was the .45 mags held the tip of the round higher.
Enjoying the progress reports.
Just checked on the extra power mainspring. That is going to be a challenge. It appears that because the housing is so short a 21 lb is as stiff as you can get.
I noticed the same thing when I loaded the 45 acp mag with 10's. I will probably give it a shot and see how it works, but I don't have high hopes.
Sounds like a winner so far. I was just thinking (I know, scary), with the talk of bringing a 1911 up to 10mm handling qualities that it wasn't originally intended for, wouldn't it simply work to go along whatever guidelines are suggested for a 460 Rowland set-up? Or, doesn't it work that way?
Based on my reading and the sense it makes, nothing you do it going to give you the same longevity in the 1911 platform when shooting high pressure rounds.
I know Mr Rowland contends that properly compensated (and that is the only way he says you should do the Rowland) the gun if fine.
Here is the problem with that thinking. The max pressures which will be the eventual cause of slide cracking occur in the first .25"-.50" of bullet movement, long before the compensator or any of the springs are in play.
So, while a comp and springs may change the energy curve that happens during the cycle of the slide and action, it does not change the fact that you just touched off a 40,000 PSI event in a locked mechanism that was engineered to contain a 21,000 PSI event for a certain service life. Steel does stretch, and eventually crack even when shooting 45 ACP/21,000 PSI ammo. Double the pressure and it will stretch and crack faster.
But, again, we are talking high round counts before this occurs. I expect to get a bunch, maybe 10,000 rounds from good slide shooting Underwood class 10mm ammo. Just like a benchrest shooter with a hot magnum, certain parts are just plain going to wear out faster because of the hotter round.
I read the other day that the US military bought ten slides for every one 1911 frame they bought. They should be considered 'expendable' items that will where out. The frame, though, is just a "gun mount" and spring rates, firing pin stops, compensators and other alteration can be made to change the energy/momentum/velocity curve of the action cycle so the frame last basically forever.
Thanks for putting it all in perspective.
I guess the only way to get equal longevity is to beef up the parts to an extent most wouldn't want it anyway. Think - Desert Eagle.
Quote from: REDLINE on August 02 2012 11:00:13 AM MDT
Thanks for putting it all in perspective.
I guess the only way to get equal longevity is to beef up the parts to an extent most wouldn't want it anyway. Think - Desert Eagle.
Actually, think - Springfield Omega. Compare the thickness of the slide walls around the chamber area in a Glock 20 and a 1911. That sheds a little light on why the 1911 doesn't last as long with the 10mm. Good forged steel in a 1911 is important for shooting something hotter than a 45, because of the thinner cross section.
Also, think about the side of the top lugs on a 1911 barrel, compared to the top lug on a Glock 20. Far, far more surface area on the Glock 20.
Post Office says the slide will be here tomorrow :D
Slide is here.
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/theP_Pair.jpg)
I really like the look. Do you see the problem?
Yeah. The dust cover lacks .220" of meeting the recoil plug housing. So...Email is in to Mars guns to see if they can extend the dust cover .250" on the frame. I just need them to weld it. I don't have a Mig welder and it has been 25 years since I used one anyway. Not like I am really up to speed on welding.
Quote from: harrygunner on July 31 2012 01:40:06 PM MDT
In addition to the slide, barrel and bushing, you'll need to change the ejector and the slide stop.
And, I don't need a new ejector. Officers guns come with the wider ejector from the factory.
One other item of note. In addition to being from barstock vs the cast slides that Para's come with, this slide is .025" wider. Little better than .010" on each rail. It only weighs .7 oz less than the gov't slide on its big brother. So, if I can get the spring rates right, I should have a pretty durable package. Especially since as a carry gun it will be "carried alot, little shot". Couple hundred rounds to break in. then maybe 500 a year in practice.
Hopefully welding up the frame won't cost an arm and a leg, especially since I will blend it.
Wait a minute.....where are the front serrations? 8)
And the sights
The sights will be similar to 10-8 performance sights. Mars Guns makes some that I really like.
Update
Steve at Mars Guns took a look at this on Monday afternoon. He was not in favor of welding up the dust cover for two reasons. First, he has had poor results welding these cast frames. Tend to get defects when the metal heats and end up chasing your tail trying to fix them all. Second, he felt the slide had WAY to much travel with that metal missing from the recoil plug housing.
His idea was a reverse plug with a .250" flange on the back. I have asked for a quote on a custom one from Briley. I also have a local machinist getting me a quote on one made from 4140.
However, if Briley can't make one for a reasonable price I had another thought the other night. Gonna buy a Briley supported Gov't reverse plug, then thread the part that sticks out the back of my commander slide, and have a ring made to thread onto it. Then a little silver solder and some filing and bingo. Nice homemade one for very little dough.
Will update again after I finish the reverse plug.
Anymore updates on this? Found the link you sent me, now I'm waiting for a Warthawg to do the what you're doing :o
Well, I don't have any new pictures. I have changed my mind on the barrel and will be calling Storm Lake later today to order the Drop In Bull barrel from them. It is $50 cheaper than the Schuemann, and will be a better barrel for me to learn about fitting since it will require far less of it.
I finally gave up on finding a reverse plug with the .250" flange I need to fill the gap between the dust cover and slide. I created a makeshift lathe by clamping a 1/2" drill to my workbench and turned down what I wanted from a 1/2" X 2.5" medium carbon steel bolt. It is currently out getting flat bottom drilled. Will post pics when it is back and document the heat treat process.
At that point I will be waiting for the barrel, and then off to the range to test it out.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 05 2012 07:41:40 AM MDT
I have changed my mind on the barrel and will be calling Storm Lake later today to order the Drop In Bull barrel from them.
How did that turn out?
Well, indecision is a wonderful thing it appears.
I ended up going with Schuemann for the barrel, and got it a few weeks after christmas. I have finished fitting the barrel hood since then. The top lugs engage well, but the firing pin hole is not centered, so I need to do some more work on the top lugs before I start on the feet/lower lugs. I hope to get to that this weekend.
I have the custom reverse plug back. It turned out OK, but I may well make another one down the road. It will also still need some file work after the barrel is fully fitted as right now it interferes with the barrel. I will have to relieve some metal. I don't want to heat treat it before I do that. I will try to post some pictures later tonight.
Interesting. Even with the change of plan it all seems to be coming along well and keeping you busy at the same time. Would love to see the pics when you get around to them.
I snapped a few pics the other day with my phone of the barrel, but they aren't good enough to show anything other than that I have the barrel.
I will try to get some better pictures once my wife is back from her trip, since she has the Nikon.
I found your Para CCO conversion thread SB. I can't wait to see the finished product and are you also going to have it coated?
Plan to park underneath, but instead of an oil bath to finish the park, I will spray and bake Cerakote. I have plenty left.
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 31 2012 01:58:39 PM MDT
STI slide is already on the way. Found one that a gunsmith had ordered and the customer didn't like and got it for $170.
EGW FPS is a must, plus a 25 lb mainspring to tame the slide. Based on Ned Christensens testing this should put the frame batttering back in to the same realm as 45 ACP is. Plan on a 20 lb recoil spring.
All Para frames are already cut for a ramped barrel. The Clark/Para cut in fact :D No frame milling required as it is already cut for the barrel I want.
I plan to build a whole new top-end, not re-using any of the 45 acp top end. This will give me a multi-caliber set-up.
Magazine is the area that I see possibly being a real challenge. I don't see a huge challenge on the feeding end of things, as the mags in my current P16 work fine and I expect/hope they will feed a commander length top end just as well.
No, the issue is the other end. I will have to modify a magazine to get the right length. Plan right now is to use a Mec-Gar body I have that has good feed lips for Para 40/10mm but a blown out base. I plan to chop it to the correct length and rebend the bottom to properly hold the base pad. That may prove to be a challenge. Or not. Just not something I have done before.
Hmmmm, my brand new Fusion Firearms 10mm came equipped with only a 20 pound spring, although they also provided me with some other poundage springs in case I needed to go higher. I haven't so far.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 21 2013 11:00:34 AM MDTHmmmm, my brand new Fusion Firearms 10mm came equipped with only a 20 pound spring, although they also provided me with some other poundage springs in case I needed to go higher. I haven't so far.
What claimed poundage are the additional weight springs they sent? Ultimately I'm wondering if any of them are over 24#, as that generally seems to be the heaviest readily available for my G20.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 21 2013 11:00:34 AM MDT
Hmmmm, my brand new Fusion Firearms 10mm came equipped with only a 20 pound spring, although they also provided me with some other poundage springs in case I needed to go higher. I haven't so far.
Are you talking about the recoil spring? Generally this is the one that mfg include different strengths of, not the mainspring, AKA hammer spring.
I was.....and I believe the heaviest 10mm recoil spring i have seen for a 1911 was 26 pounds.
Wolff makes a 28 lb recoil spring for 1911's. Way stronger than I would want on my gun. I am a big believer in flat bottom firing pin stops and stout mainsprings before upping the recoil spring.
Firing pin stops and stout mainsprings won't help you if your slide doesn't return all the way. Recoil spring will.
If an 18.5 lb spring doesn't return your slide all the way, you have serious issues that need addressed in your gun. If a round doesn't go into battery relatively easily, it shouldn't be forced.
Correct poundage spring means I DON'T force it. And 18 1/2 is the LOWEST spring I've ever heard of.
1911 springs for full size in a standard 45 ACP is 16 lbs. National match guns with shoot target loads ship with two springs...a 16 for full power and a 14 lb for target loads. Ace 22 conversions, 9mm, 38 super and the rare 38 special all shipped from the factory with 14 lb springs.
Wolff sells 1911 recoil springs as light as 7 lbs.
18.5 lbs (some say 19lbs) is standard for 10mm and 40 S&W, and is considered my most non-10mm enthusiasts to be a very stout recoil spring. At 22 lbs most experts agree you are subjecting the slide lock pin and corresonding frame holes to some degree of battering that will eventually deform the frame. May take several 100K rounds though, so most users don't worry about it.
I'm talking 10mm, not .45 ACP.
Armscor shipped their latest 10mm with a 16lb I believe.
Only way for that is to have a slide that weighs less than normal for something of that pressure. Makes me wonder how durable they will turn out to be.
Any more news on this conversion sqlbullet? I am planning the exact same thing myself and was curious how you made out? Would love to see more pix and details about what you have done. Thanks!