You are my last hope before this gun goes back to the mother ship. Originally my RIA TAC Ultra 10mm (Commander size) gun ran flawlessly until I had it Cerakoted. Now I'm getting live round stovepipes and bolt-over-base FTFs with just about every mag. It's occurring on the last two rounds of my mags. It does it with all mags (Tripp, Chip M, Kimber, RIA, and Metalform) and with all FMJ ammo (Am. Eag., Armscor, Sig, PMC, reloads). It also occurs with a flat bottom FPS and the regular FPS.
The function of the gun is very smooth and I'm pretty certain the slide is not binding on any part of the frame. This was one of the first things I checked. From my research, I believe the slide is short stroking but don't know why or how exactly to go about fixing it. RIA has given me a return authorization to send them the gun (they warranty the internals and non-Cerakoted parts), but I don't really want to do that... at least not yet. The 4-6 week wait would kill me.
According to RIA the stock RS is 24# and the MS is 25# for my gun. So I ordered a set of 22, 24 and 26# RS to experiment... in the event my RS went bad. I also ordered a new plug and guiderod just as a preventive measure. Additionally, I'm replacing one of the springs on one of my mags (Tripp) with a heavier version. BTW anyone know where I can get heavier 10mm springs for my mags? Wolff doesn't have them.
I'm not seeing how the MSH spring weight would affect this malfunction, so I haven't ordered any MS to play with. I also don't see where the Cerakote could be causing this? Maybe where the barrel lugs fit?
As I said, I'm guessing it's a slow moving or short-stroking slide, but I'm real new to this so I could be way off? Does anyone have any input on the remedy? Heavier or lighter RS?
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Another pic...
Most FTF's have been like the pic in the previous post.
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Well does the cerakote also cover the area where the barrel slides up into the slide notches?
Are you seeing any wear on the cerakote at these notches that are being rubbed?
The barrel slides upward and forward to achieve barrel lock up in the slide!
However, It seems they are flipping upward, like they are not sliding up the breech face to get under the extractor and slammed into the barrel hood to be trapped. On the 1911 style pistols the recoil spring needs to be such that it allows the slide to run all the way back and allow the fresh round to fully pop to the top before it slides it forward to battery.
Different impulse ammo can be just right, too weak or too strong as the impulse is translated to the slide action.
You may need to play with the RS to provide the best results providing the cerakote is not hampering some area of slide travel and barrel movement returning to battery.
Looks to me like whomever disassembled your slide for the cerakote changed the tension on your extractor. This is lack of proper controlled feed at work, and the fact the extractor has been out and back in makes it very much the prime candidate.
With the gun field stripped, you should be able to slide a round under the extractor and have it held tight against the face of the slide. If it won't stay there on it's own as you move the slide, then it is too loose.
Sqlbullet, this is the live round being shoved up into the barrel hood or standing trapped. I don't think that they are even getting up the breech face to engage the space between the breech face and the extractor. But trying to get a handle on this one is somewhat puzzling... ???
According to some of the Wilson Combat vids I've seen about testing extractor tension, the tension on mine seems to be fine. Live round stays against breech face until i shape it vigorously.
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 30 2015 05:30:11 PM MDT
Well does the cerakote also cover the area where the barrel slides up into the slide notches?
Are you seeing any wear on the cerakote at these notches that are being rubbed?
The barrel slides upward and forward to achieve barrel lock up in the slide!
However, It seems they are flipping upward, like they are not sliding up the breech face to get under the extractor and slammed into the barrel hood to be trapped. On the 1911 style pistols the recoil spring needs to be such that it allows the slide to run all the way back and allow the fresh round to fully pop to the top before it slides it forward to battery.
Different impulse ammo can be just right, too weak or too strong as the impulse is translated to the slide action.
You may need to play with the RS to provide the best results providing the cerakote is not hampering some area of slide travel and barrel movement returning to battery.
With the internals removed the slide slides freely on frame rails until it gets to disconnector. I'm not seeing any areas that are binding. I did rack the slide a few thousand times to loosen the fit a tad.
When you suggest to play with the RS, would you recommend going up in weight or down? Right now it's a 24#. I have a 22 and 26# arriving in the next few days.
Also will the spring weight in the MSH have any bearing on these misfeeds?
I would first suggest going lower recoil spring weight, 22lb seems about right for most ammo. However you may need a 20lb to test the results. The MS is probably fine...
Gonna ask the obvious....Does it do this with all magazines or just one? (I assume you have them numbered if you have more than one and are tracking which mags have failures.)
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 01 2015 08:09:58 AM MDT
Gonna ask the obvious....Does it do this with all magazines or just one? (I assume you have them numbered if you have more than one and are tracking which mags have failures.)
Yea ALL mags: RIA, Metalform, Kimber, Tripp and Chip Mc...
AND all the failures occur on the last or second-to-last round of those mags...
I also think it might be short stroking. I have had similar problems with a gun (can't remember which one) when I slowly lower the slide on a full magazine.
I suggest you oil EVERYTHING. Use real oil. Not any type of miracle wonder gun oil. Baby oil would probably work if that is all you have. Cooking oil would also work (Fireclean), but it will eventually turn to a glue type substance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9bOT_d60LM
.
Just a thought in this perplexing malfunction...
Is it possible that the combination of Cerakote which is actually quite slick, AND the loosening of the slide to frame fit has made the slide rack faster than usual? Could it be that the stock recoil spring of 24# is now too strong?
I'm not sure if it's a common practice to reduce RS weight on a 1911 after it's been sufficiently broken in???
I would try a lighter recoil spring. Been doing some reading on this kind of malfunction in a 1911. It is commonly called a bolt over base malfunction apparently. It occurs when the slide doesn't properly pick up the new round by the base. The bolt (slide in this case fills this role) goes partially over the base, then strips the round the rest of the way, resulting in a very nose-up presentation.
Causes that are relevant to the 1911 platform:
Slide does not travel fully to the rear (short stroke)
Slide moves forward too quickly
Case head does not rise up from the magazine quickly enough when exposed by the action
Case head does not rise up far enough when exposed by the action.
I think since the cerakote the slide moves back forward faster than the magazine spring can get that last round or two pushed up. So, either a lighter recoil spring or a stronger mag spring. Since I generally think 24# is too much for a 1911 anyway I would say get thee a lighter spring. (My own 1911's run a 25# mainspring, flat bottom firing pin stop and 18.5# recoil spring for 10mm.)
Let us know once you find a cure.
I am watching this closely as my new RIA doin the same , I will not modify anything on mine for now as this is not a carry gun- only did it twice. Will shoot it more first
Are these all new magazines?
How easy is it to load the first two bullets going into the magazines?
Does it happen if you only load 6 rounds into the magazine? 7 rounds? 4 rounds?
Is there wear on the feed lips of the magazine where the slide may be contacting the tops of the feed lips?
Did they cerakote the bottom of the breach block area? The face that slides across the top of the magazine.
Can you pull the magazines out without using the mag release?
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on October 09 2015 12:41:42 PM MDT
Are these all new magazines?
How easy is it to load the first two bullets going into the magazines?
Does it happen if you only load 6 rounds into the magazine? 7 rounds? 4 rounds?
Is there wear on the feed lips of the magazine where the slide may be contacting the tops of the feed lips?
Did they cerakote the bottom of the breach block area? The face that slides across the top of the magazine.
Can you pull the magazines out without using the mag release?
Well I just replaced the RS with a 22# Wolff. Also I put a new guiderod and plug. Also I bought a few extra power mag springs to try out just in case my mags need more Oomph! I hope to head out to the range tonight to do some testing. I have a pack full of different RS. We'll see, and I'll be sure to share a report.
To answer your questions, all the mags were purchased new shortly after I got the gun. The first two rounds load somewhat easy. Not hard, but not soft either.
I will have to check where the wear is occurring on mag, lips, etc.
Sorry, I'm a newbie, and I'm not certain what the breach block is?? If it's what you're describing, and I'm thinking, then yes, it was Cerakoted, but I removed it.
No I cannot pull mags out without pressing the release button. When pressing the release they fall right out.
Thanks and regards...
Well I finally got to do some more testing. I had the 22# RS in the gun already, and to keep things simple I only took two types of ammo, Armscor and Sig. Most of the testing was done with the weaker Armscor loads. In all I shot about 150 rounds. If a mag functioned well, meaning no FTF's, then I would try the hotter SIG loads. Also of the 5 mags, I loaded two (Tripp & Chip McCormick) with extra power springs from Tripp Research. Predictably, the two mags with the heavier springs performed much better. I think they only had one FTF. The other three mags (Kimber, Metalform, Armscor), which all had weaker springs all continued to give me the bolt over base FTF's and the live round stovepipes.
These results were consistent with 3 different RS weights, 20#, 22# and 24# so swapping springs really did not show any change in performance one way or another. Since I was running out of time... and ammo, I didn't get to try the 26# and 27# RS.
So this is where I'm at. I could go ahead and buy 3 more extra power mag springs to see if I can get all the mags to function, but somehow the one FTF with the stronger mag still has me concerned. So I don't know whether or not to send it back to RIA, or just keep shooting it to see if it settles, but that could get expensive, especially since I haven't tried any of the hotter loads yet. I do find it strange that the mags that are not working now were performing perfectly before the Cerakote. Somehow the Cerakote is impeding the function of the mags?? I'll post a few pics on the next post.
Here is the one FTF I had with the mag with the stronger spring.
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Aside from the live round stovepipes, these are the other two types of FTF i had with the weaker mags...
Keep in mind that ALL malfunctions occurred on the second-to-last round of the mag.
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one more...
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Quote from: Reverendpdp on October 09 2015 09:46:16 PM MDT
Aside from the live round stovepipes, these are the other two types of FTF i had with the weaker mags...
Keep in mind that ALL malfunctions occurred on the second-to-last round of the mag.
Be careful with this one. It looks like the bullet may have set-back. Measure that cartridge and compare it with one out of the box (not yet handled).
That is definitely an issue of the slide heading back forward before the next cartridge has fully presented itself for feeding. Either from short stroking or weak springs.
Give the gun to another (experienced) shooter and see if they have the same problem.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 10 2015 01:54:16 PM MDT
That is definitely an issue of the slide heading back forward before the next cartridge has fully presented itself for feeding. Either from short stroking or weak springs.
Give the gun to another (experienced) shooter and see if they have the same problem.
Sql
Are you meaning weak mag springs or recoil springs? I'm not sure why there was virtually no change in performance when I changed to weaker recoil springs. I thought it would slow the slide down a bit. I can't imagine having to go even weaker on the RS?
BTW I did let an armorer take a few shots and he had the same malfunction.
I would back off recoil springs down to 18.5. If at that level you still have issues, I would start upping the mag springs.
Also, keep the mags loaded. I know that sounds weird, but I have bolt over base issues in my Witness full size if I let the mags sit empty when I am not using them. Keep them full and I have no issues.
After so many possible fixes, I decided to send the gun in to Rock Island.
I'll let you know what they came up with...
Well I just got my gun back from the mother-ship. It looks like they tuned the extractor, replaced the barrel and link, and replaced one mag...
Would love to understand why??? And how these things created the above problems?.
Since I just received it, I haven't tried it, but am anxious to see if it's really fixed.
Is the extractor like the typical 1911 styles where the bend them to adjust the tension? Too much tension can hold the casings too long or trap them during extraction...
Whatever you do don't slip ammo into the chamber and let the slide close on the round sitting in the chamber. The reason is it can bend the extractors or damage them. Always feed the ammo from the magazines.
The extractor, if not properly fit, will interfere with the case head sliding up into proper position on the breech face. The easy test here is to remove the extractor and then hand cycle the action and see if it runs more smoothly.
The second post on this thread has a great photo of an extractor with excessive deflection.
http://sassnet.com/wildbunch/forum/index.php?topic=1083.0
This extractor would benefit from less deflection, a deeper groove, and some bevel and polishing to ease feeding.
The second cause can be the magazine. Once the cartridge come free from the feed lips, the next round or the follower on the last round, should give it a "pop" helping push the base up onto the extractor hook and in alignment with the chamber. If the spring is weak this may not happen. Also, in double stack 1911's, the follower shape may prevent this on the last round. I had to re-shape the follower in my Mec Gar mag for my Para, and finally just gave up on it. It is a range mag now, but never a carry mag.