(http://armscor.com/images/products/_product_gallery_large/51991_1911-A1_ROCK_Ultra_FS_10mm_leftangled.jpg)
Bought this mainly because it came from the factory set up the way I would build a 10mm 1911.
The pros:
It's cheap! ($650 out the door)
Bull Barrel
Ramped, fully supported chamber
Fiber optic front sight
It's cheap
Adjustable rear sight
Ambi safety
G 10 grips
Mag well
High beavertail grip safety
Full length guide rod
Did I mention it was cheap?
The cons:
Some low quality parts used
It was assembled, rather that fitted (more on that below)
Slightly out of spec machining (more on that below)
Like every other RIA, this one came wrapped in a plastic bag and literally soaked in preservative oil. I did a detail strip, clean, inspection, (like I do on every new gun) and discovered the following:
The mag well is a Wilson style slip on that hooks onto the lower grip screw bushings. Cheap but effective. I decided to replace it and the aluminum mainspring housing with a S&A I had laying around when I noticed about a .004 gap between the mag well and the bottom of the frame. Never noticed this with an S&A before so I compared it with my other 1911s and discovered the frame is cut just a little shorter (about .005-.006) than my other 1911s. No big deal, it's just cosmetic.
The ambi safety is a Mueschke and while cheap, is known for breaking. (normally the retaining/sear pin breaks at the notch) I also noticed the safety liked to be on. Swipe it off safe to fire it and it would pop back up to the safe position. A few minuets re-fitting the notch and it was working properly. I'll replace it with something better when it breaks.
The trigger pull was fair breaking at 6.8 pounds, according to my scale but the sear was only engaging about 30% of the right hammer hook. Breaking out my jigs and stones, I squared everything up giving it a crisp 4 pound pull. The trigger itself is a steel mid length, with an over travel screw. While nice, it's still to long for my short stubby fingers so I replaced it with a Greider short trigger.
I installed an EGW flat firing pin stop and noticed the firing pin hole is drilled at a slight angle with the hole coming out of the breach face slightly low and to the right. Again, this purely cosmetic as it's close enough to center to reliably ignite primers.
A lot of folks report loose extractors but mine was gtg.
The barrel: >:(
This is my biggest complaint. The crown was nicely cut with the popular 11 degree taper crown but they forgot to do the 60 degree cut on the rifling. A few minuets with the crowning tools fixed that. The bore is fairly ruff and their's some type of hump on the bottom about an inch from the chamber throat. I thought about fire lapping it till I slugged it. The bore is fairly tight for the first two inches of rifling then it gets progressively easier to the muzzle. Fire lapping will cure that tight spot and make it shoot lead bullets better but my micrometers show the grove diameter runs from .400-.4015 so it's slightly oval as well. Good jacketed bullets will hide a lot of barrel flaws, (as my testing proved) so I might just stick with them or replace the barrel. Haven't made up my mind yet.
While testing, the slide stop would randomly engage with rounds in the mag. I thought the rounds might be bumping the notch inside but I couldn't see how as their was no interference with any of my mags or rounds. (recoil induced maybe?) I took the dremel to the face where the retaining pin touches the slide stop and cut a slight detent so the stop requires slightly more effort to engage. Seamed to fix the issue.
Mags:
The factory Metalform 8 rd mag, the stainless Metalform I ordered from Brownells, a Kimber 9 rd, a borrowed Colt 8 rd, (also made by Metalform) and Tripp 9 rd, all worked flawlessly in my tests.
The Wilson 9 rd...not so much. After loading two rounds in the mag, it got incredibly difficult to load any more and if you turned the mag upside down, the two rounds would fall out with the follower stuck in the mag. Surprising and sad as I have been using Wilson 45 acp mags in my compittion and carry 1911s for over twenty years with nary a problem.
Bottom line:
RIA offers good value for the money but you may, or may not, have to send it back (or to a gunsmith) to fix all the fiddly bits.
Jeff
Sounds like a real lemon. But it was cheap.
Great review. Very much liked reading in detail what you needed to do to the gun to get her up to snuff.
Take away for me:
1. RIA is a great gun if you are a DIY kinda guy that is willing to read, learn and maybe buy a Kuhnhausen shop manual. If not, spend a bit more on a Dan Wesson.
2. I can't recommend this gun like I can a Glock. It likely WON'T run well out of the box.
I am not knocking the 1911. I like them very much, and they get the lion's share of available holster time in my carry. But, they are an enthusiast gun. If you want cheap you gotta know how to tweak them, and if you don't you gotta spend more. Want a cheap reliable 10mm out of the box, Glock is the only gun I can say will likely meet the requirement.
Modern gun designs, from say the last 40 years, (Glock, Ruger, S&W, Sig) are designed for ease of manufacturing. The final product is simply assembled and test fired. The assembler may have to knock off a few machining burs at most and you end up with a fairly accurate but reliable product.
DM1906: I would hardly call it a lemon. Most of the things I did to it before I ever fired a round.
A high thumb hold while shooting would have probably kept the safety disengaged.
The barrel might have shot ok or even better without me cutting the 60 degree on the crown.
I've seen $2K+ race guns that had poor triggers with only partial sear engagement.
If I had left the factory mag well on and just cleaned it and took it to the range. It's likely the only issue to report was the occasional premature slide lock back. (and that could have been me)
I've seen a few Rocks at the USPSA matches over the years and their not all that bad for the most part. Most 1911 guys, (like Harley riders) will change out parts to personalize their guns. If your thinking of doing that, the RIA is a solid platform to build upon.
Jeff
When you say to worked on the safety notch....The frame clearance notch in the safety or they detent engagement "notch" (for lack of a better term)?
Each to his/her own, I guess. If I had that experience with any other product, it would be a lemon. There's a huge difference between customizing and repairing. I've seen about a dozen RIA's at my range, and I sent 4 of them away until "repaired". I might expect this to some degree with used, but these were new, right out of the box. Poor finish work is one thing. Poor, out of spec machine work is completely different. Your barrel alone (not including the crown), is sub-standard, even for cheap. But that's my opinion, based on my experience and my standard expectation of relative quality. Every manufacturer should have a minimal level of quality control, but it sounds like you got a "5 o'clock Friday" gun.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 16 2015 11:02:42 AM MDT
When you say to worked on the safety notch....The frame clearance notch in the safety or they detent engagement "notch" (for lack of a better term)?
The detent engagement notch. It took less than a minute with the dremel and a small round carbide burr.
Quote from: DM1906 on October 16 2015 11:42:06 AM MDT
Your barrel alone (not including the crown), is sub-standard, even for cheap. But that's my opinion, based on my experience and my standard expectation of relative quality. Every manufacturer should have a minimal level of quality control, but it sounds like you got a "5 o'clock Friday" gun.
In testing, the gun shoots pretty well with XTP 180 & 200 gr bullets but abysmal with the coated lead bullets I normally shoot out of my 40 limited gun. (even when loaded down to Short & Weak velocities)
I've seen similar "5 o'clock Friday" barrels from just about all the major manufactures during my time "behind the counter". they all tell you basically the same thing, "it's within spec cause it meets the minimum accuracy requirements with good quality jacketed ammo". I would send it back but in my experience, with those other bigger companies, the replacement barrel you end up with is just as bad...or worse.
I would love to replace it with an aftermarket barrel but at the moment, Bar-Sto is the only one offering one ($240+shipping) unless I order a 40 S&W barrel from some one else and rechamber it to 10mm. Now, I love Bar-Sto barrels. I've installed them in many custom builds, including a couple of my own. It's just hard for me to justify, in my mind, spending 1/3 the cost of the gun, on what's supposed to be a budget 10, just so I can shoot cheaper bullets. I'll probably fire lap the factory barrel first to see if anything improves.
Given the results of your slug test it is not a surprise it doesn't shoot lead well. Squeezes them down right at the start and then lets them rattle down the bore. That would be a huge bummer for me as I love me my cast boolits. But, you are correct that you can buy a bunch of jacketed bullets for $225.
:P the true genius of the Glock is that it is cheap AND it works out of the box.
Plus you can modify it cheaply and it still works great. I love my Colts. I refuse to buy cheap junk guns.
To each his own. enjoy!
Quote from: HiVel on October 22 2015 08:14:12 AM MDT
:P the true genius of the Glock is that it is cheap AND it works out of the box.
Plus you can modify it cheaply and it still works great. I love my Colts. I refuse to buy cheap junk guns.
To each his own. enjoy!
HIVEL, I agree the Glock is a marvel of cheap, modern design & manufacturing, BUT...it's not a 1911.
It's funny you mention Colt. When I was doing my original cleaning, I was thinking of how the minor flaws reminded me of all the Colts I worked on throughout the late 80's-90s when I started as a gunsmith. (good bread & butter money those were)
When I originally purchased this gun, I was also looking at a new Colt Delta...at slightly more than TWICE the money. (btw, WAY better quality than the ones from 30 years ago) Even though the Colt is American made and Stainless, I wouldn't be able to shoot full power ammo out of it till I had the frame milled to accept the ramped style bull barrel that comes on the Rock.
Even if I do replace the barrel in my Rock, I'd still have less invested in it than I would the Colt.
Jeff
Quote from: fltbed on October 26 2015 02:59:35 PM MDT
Even if I do replace the barrel in my Rock, I'd still have less invested in it than I would the Colt.
This, IMHO, is what makes the Rock such a great 1911 platform. It may skimp in some areas, but it has all the right bones for a solid gun. And at half the price.
Welp...this barrel is done.
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/fltbed/IMG_0631_zps2ljzvu5g.jpg)
Took the Rock out today to test some Longshot with the XTPs and was getting poor accuracy so I figured I'd clean it.
On the plus side, Armscor's response was immediate. They sent me a shipping label and I'll be sending it back tomorrow. Hopefully the next barrel will be better than this one.
Jeff
Others have had barrel quality issues. Sorry you are joining that club.
Glad to hear that once again, RIA is acting quickly to resolve the issue.
It's back from the mothership!
With a new (very nicely fitted) barrel...and slide!
It took an extra week due to the Thanksgiving holiday but after taking a few measurements, I'm very impressed!
The weather looks good for Sunday, so I should be able to get out to the range for a little chrono testing. With the new barrel, my hopes are high for better accuracy and velocity. :D
Jeff
Interesting test results today. On some loads, the new barrel was faster. On other loads it was slower.
On all loads it was more accurate.
180 gr coated lead (Black Cherry) 6.8 gr WSF
Old barrel: 1096 f.p.s. New barrel: 1111 f.p.s. 8)
180 gr XTP 8.2 gr BE-86
Old barrel: 1133 f.p.s. New barrel: 1155 f.p.s. 8)
200 gr XTP 12.4 gr #9
Old Barrel: 1094 f.p.s. New barrel: 1065 f.p.s. :o
Jeff
Though the fact that you had to send it back is a real pain, the silver lining is that they took care of you. I too was very impressed with Armscor's outstanding Customer Service. Kinda wish these guns were built in Nevada rather than Philippines...
I have a TAC Ultra MS, but as of late have been eyeballing both the Sig p220-10, and another Rock Island; the Pro Match Ultra 6". I know, call me crazy!
That's a great platform. If you are inclined to "tinker" or put in time as a "builder" it is affordable enough for the purpose.
Or if you don't want to tinker or send them back you may have to look at several examples before you buy one.
I would like to se a "customized" version. (A match barrel/bushing, supported barrel and match trigger) would make this "interesting" to say the least.
Many shooters don't understand the concept of hunting with an self-loading pistol. What it must possess is the the power to drop medium-sized game at reasonable ranges (between 60-100 yards). The 180-220 grain bullets to proper levels can be used efficiently from a 5"(+) barrel. As long as the bullets are properly placed, the 10mm Auto is sufficient to accomplish the task at hand. An adequate 'platform" is all that's needed.
Agreed?
Quote from: Captain O on December 22 2015 06:27:48 PM MST
I would like to se a "customized" version. (A match barrel/bushing, supported barrel and match trigger) would make this "interesting" to say the least.
Many shooters don't understand the concept of hunting with an self-loading pistol. What it must possess is the the power to drop medium-sized game at reasonable ranges (between 60-100 yards). The 180-220 grain bullets to proper levels can be used efficiently from a 5"(+) barrel. As long as the bullets are properly placed, the 10mm Auto is sufficient to accomplish the task at hand. An adequate 'platform" is all that's needed.
Agreed?
Agreed
Mines not very customized. I installed an old S&A magwell, Greider short trigger and did a trigger job. I was thinking about fitting a new KKM match barrel but figured I'd give the factory a shot first.
50 yards off sandbags
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/fltbed/IMG_0665_zpsdaas7byf.jpg)
I'd say it's accurate enough to be "interesting".
Jeff
Jeff:
So far, so good! As far as your pocketbook is concerned, I hope that's all the 'alterations' you need have been accomlished.
Captain O
The only other mod I'm thinking about doing to it, is a narrower Dawson fiber optic front sight. I have his .100 wide sights on most of my pistols as I prefer having a little more light on either side of the front sight.https://dawsonprecision.com/rock-island-1911-fiber-optic-front-sights/ (https://dawsonprecision.com/rock-island-1911-fiber-optic-front-sights/)
One things for sure. The experiences I've had with this gun and my Glock 40 with the FF3. I really think I need the RIA Pro Match 6" 10mm. :D
Jeff
Jeff:
If I may be so bold as to suggest that a custom-fitted KKM 6" slide/barrel arrangement may be all you need to have a 2-in-1 arrangement, thus negating the need for an entirely new pistol.
Quote from: Captain O on December 24 2015 12:35:16 PM MST
Jeff:
If I may be so bold as to suggest that a custom-fitted KKM 6" slide/barrel arrangement may be all you need to have a 2-in-1 arrangement, thus negating the need for an entirely new pistol.
Now that would spoil all the fun. ;D
I've actually considered doing that. Maybe if Caspian has another year end sale, I'll pick up a full profile 6" slide.
Jeff
Not necessarily a match barrel but a few customizations and upgrades...
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/ReverendPDP/IMG_0788_zpsez8buh3g.jpg) (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/ReverendPDP/media/IMG_0788_zpsez8buh3g.jpg.html)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/ReverendPDP/IMG_0786_zps5ynvwezz.jpg) (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/ReverendPDP/media/IMG_0786_zps5ynvwezz.jpg.html)
One more...
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm241/ReverendPDP/IMG_0784_zpso5nckpz3.jpg) (http://s298.photobucket.com/user/ReverendPDP/media/IMG_0784_zpso5nckpz3.jpg.html)
Sweet. That's the cool things about 1911's, their like the Harley's of the gun world. Infinite ways to customize them. 8)
I've considered getting a Rock Ultra MS and removing the magwell and doing a bobtail to it. I have a friend who has a Dan Wesson set up like that and it really carries and shoots well.
Jeff