The ones I know of are:
Doubletap's 200gr & 230gr which I'm just guessing UW wouldn't want to use nor would DT want UW using them. lol
Rimrock - 220gr
So who else? I'm guessing quantity needs and quality control factors will be the limiting factors...
For me the perfect balance would be -
a 210gr with about a .300" meplat & hardness of the rimrock 220gr.
wider meplat than the .27 rimrock 220gr and 10gr less weight would get it going faster. Maybe 1300fps? considering UW has the 220gr going 1200.
I'm thinking a 200gr hardcast might be pushed to 1400fps which might just be too much for the bullet to handle.
I push 200 grain hard cast from my Garands at 2200 fps. The speed alone won't be an issue.
That load however depends on a 24" barrel to make that velocity. Peak pressure is about 28,000 psi. A 10mm load that makes 1400 fps out of a 6" barrel will need to make more like 37000+PSI. That may make it tricky. Plastic deformation becomes an issue unless you are casting from something like linotype or isotope lead (water dropped). Those alloys tend to be brittle and would shatter if they hit bone.
With a gas check should be no issue though. WW or Isotope lead mixed 50/50 with pure and add 2% tin, and it should be fine. In many guns with good fit you might get away without the gas check.
yeah but is there a company that mass produces again a bullet that is gas checked, HARD as the rimrock 220, and is 200-210gr with a wider meplat?
Plenty of small shop caster's out there with a Magma machine that would be glad to fill a contract. I know some guys here that would probably front the cost of the mold for an order of 10,000.
The real difficulty in the hard cast market is the guys that are serious about hard cast bullets cast and load their own. It is just so easy to do.
what about that mountain place...let's ya design your own bullet or something?
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 01 2012 09:08:24 AM MDT
The real difficulty in the hard cast market is the guys that are serious about hard cast bullets cast and load their own. It is just so easy to do.
This. Of course, there aren't even many good options for heavy hardcast bullet molds, unless you go with a custom mold, like Mountain Molds, or maybe Accurate Molds. Either of these companies can cut a mold to your specs, but I don't know if these can be easily adapted to a production casting machine. Accurate Molds may offer that option. I went with Mountain Molds, and would do so again.
Accurate Molds will. Mountain Molds used to offer a block for a Magma, but doesn't anymore. He does cut a fine mold though. I love mine, just wish it had more cavities.
I think Ballista-cast also does Magma molds. NEI does as well, but I don't know if they will cut to your design.
so bottom line there are no options out there for a
high production of hard cast bullets to be made at a high quality with a high quality control. Thus the 220gr is the only decent option.
Underwood had like 60 boxes in stock when I bought my 220hardcast from them. That means they ordered at least 3000 bullets from rimrock.
So again is there ANY Company that can put out that kind of volume with PRECISION - to a spec that underwood came up with - cuz obviously there are no choices out there so he'd have to design a bullet.
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on October 03 2012 10:59:07 AM MDT
So again is there ANY Company that can put out that kind of volume with PRECISION - to a spec that underwood came up with - cuz obviously there are no choices out there so he'd have to design a bullet.
Sure, any decent casting company could do it. I think nobody currently does because of demand. In case it wasn't clear, the Magma molds mentioned above are what most commercial casters use.
Yeah...With Yondering on this one.
There are plenty of commercial casters who would spool up and cast for $100-$150/thousand bullets. I use that price because that has to be about what he is paying for jacketed bullets minimum, and he is selling this load at the same price as most of his jacketed loads.
Availability is NOT the challenge.
The challenge is consensus on what that bullet should look like. Yondering and I obviously think alike on lots of things and are both knowledgeable and experienced casters. And, we would probably not spec this bullet the same, as he generally in in favor of gas checks for 10mm and I am generally not.
The bottom line is that most guys that are serious about what cast bullet they want in 10mm are gonna cast and load their own. The ones who are just interested in trying 50 or 100 rounds don't have a strong opinion.
So, Underwood does the smart business thing and loads what is most readily available.
Agreed. Another point is that the guys who are serious about it and cast their own, probably wouldn't buy any from a commercial caster or Underwood in any significant quantity. If someone offered an appealing bullet design, I'd buy some, and if I liked it, just buy a mold to cast my own.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 04 2012 08:22:05 AM MDT
The challenge is consensus on what that bullet should look like. Yondering and I obviously think alike on lots of things and are both knowledgeable and experienced casters. And, we would probably not spec this bullet the same, as he generally in in favor of gas checks for 10mm and I am generally not.
I will clarify here, for the sake of discussion, that a heavy 220-ish 10mm bullet should not have a traditional gas check, to keep the bullet as short as possible. A copper gas check adds .025"-.030" to the length of a 10mm bullet, compared to the same weight plain base. You are right though that I do like gas checks in most of my 10mm loads, but I'm applying very thin checks to plain base bullets, so the total length is only increased about .006". I don't think that process is refined enough to use commercially though, so I would opt for a plain base bullet.
The real way of the future for commercial cast bullets though is the polymer coatings they are using in Austrailia and easter Europe. No exposed lead, clean bore, and still lower bore friction than jacketed. A coated 220gr bullet, with a wide meplat and no lube grooves, could be very impressive in 10mm. I'd bet that 1250-1300 fps would not be out of reach for a G20.
i'll take a 210gr .30 meplat non gas checked rimrock hardness at 1300fps from a 4.6" bbl 8)
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on October 04 2012 07:19:27 PM MDT
i'll take a 210gr .30 meplat non gas checked rimrock hardness at 1300fps from a 4.6" bbl 8)
In terms of HEAVY, that sounds just about right.
took a 220 rim rock and filed it down
start weight 219.3gr
start length .7350"
end weight 209.2 gr
end length .7015"
start meplat - .2700"
end meplat - .3000"
(http://i47.tinypic.com/23mlhl.jpg)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/9g8xn7.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/29osdn6.jpg)
That looks neat. Can that Company be twisted into supplying something like this?
Quote from: MrRedbull616 on October 21 2012 07:22:16 PM MDT
took a 220 rim rock and filed it down
start weight 219.3gr
start length .7350"
end weight 209.2 gr
end length .7015"
start meplat - .2700"
end meplat - .3000"
(http://i47.tinypic.com/23mlhl.jpg)
(http://i49.tinypic.com/9g8xn7.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/29osdn6.jpg)
It looks like you took some from the top and bottom? ???
had to just enough off top to bring meplat out to .3000 and then on the bottom to lighten the weight.
So you have a shorter bullet and lighter bullet = faster with a wider meplat but not too wide like .32ish like double taps...well that is my opinion of course.
well im sure rimrock would do it if there were enough bullets to be ordered. Obviously the lube ring would be moved up a little. ie. likely .03 higher.