As most here know, I seem to always volunteer to be the test mule. In preparation for the 10mm release I purchased a 9mm version K100. Sadly, I'm already regretting the purchase which I haven't even taken delivery of yet (sign the papers tonight). I set out trying to see what I need to do running up the ladder in ammo from fodder, NATO, +P, +P+ and then Underwood, etc.... in the best forum currently for them: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=225589&p=2515617#entry2515617
Since posting that it has been a PM and response - fest of don't do it and semi-threats. Nothing unusual from what the Canadian representative has doled out already.
If the 9mm for whatever reason can't be shot with those ammos it's semi-useless to me and I suspect others as well. Heaven help us firing some of the 10mm stuff with no +P rating!!!!
IC, what you need to get is an Arsenal Strike One. It is a very solid firearms, polymer framed. No one has any heartburn about running +p+ in the gun. I have "one of those guys" as a friend. You know, eats, drinks and deficates John Moses Browning and 45 ACP. The Strike One made it's way into his cadre of handguns, and he likes it so much he is campaigning for a compact version he could *GASP* carry.
If I were to choose a gun to get in 10mm, it would be the Strike One. And I might get one in 9mm as it is a pretty sweet gun.
What do you or anyone else think about the responses there? It's like talking out of both corners of your mouth and not owning either.
They clearly don't want to stand behind their product with +p+ ammo. I would sell the gun and move on to one made by a company that is willing to stand behind their product.
You're thinking like me! As a 10mm community what should be our view about the future 10mm offering?
I think there are some significant gaps in the 10mm offerings currently on the market.
I would love to see a truly compact 10mm that runs and is highly concealable. The reality is my G29 doesn't conceal a ton better than my G20. The issue is thickness. I think the market would respond well to a G43 style single stack in 10mm.
There are plenty of "target/hunting" options for 10mm.
Some additional players in the high capacity service pistol category would be welcome.
Finally, while I love my G29, it is the ONLY player in the compact space that runs well enough to bet my life on. A CCO sized 1911 in 10mm that was dead nuts reliable would be great. A wide body CCO sized gun would also be great.
For new design, I like the idea of a Strike One in 10mm. Solid design, low bore axis, all the advantages of the Glock platform but not a Glock. I think it could be a real option for the gun of tomorrow.
What I meant was should we take off of this 9mm fiasco concerning ammos in the Grand Power's 10mm version?
Pretty clear they are gonna waffle about what the platform will withstand.
But, then again, so does EAA, and yet the Witness guns are tanks as you know.
That's not good news for that new 10mm waiting on the ATF! Even if I don't shoot that stuff someone will. If something happens the shock - wave will be strong on the Internet gun forums.
It will be something to keep abreast of as they start to roll out into the market place here or overseas... :-\
We found at least one frame and barrel issues with a heat treatment problem. I'm hoping this newer frame and better heat treatment has cured those.
I would love a cz-75ish 10mm...I think it's a strong platform, its loved by 1 and all and it's a strong when shooting any ammunition.. I think cz could pull it off and not charge the common man $1200.00 for an overpriced German 8 round holding turd!.... At least that's my 10mm dream
Given the way we have been led around, I think it's clear what to expect from the 10mm should it ever actually become available in anything more than comments by our area rep.
These 10mm will have issues and it will take an act of God to get it fixed. Grand power corporate is fine with the way our area Rep represents himself and grand power. That in itself tells me it's not a company to give money to. 10mm offering or not.
Thanks to the one that tested this as it gave final confirmation of what I suspected already. If these were as good as grand power claimed, they would have been here for years out of sheer demand. More reputable importers would have been all over these.
Hearing that canuck was giving you borderline threats seems like a reason to contact corporate grand power and let them know.
As another thought, despite constantly hearing how these 9mm are selling like hotcakes, I have yet to see many reviews online.
Long post short, goodbye grand power. Going to go with a reputable company for any future firearm purchase.
will965, I think the Witness line fits the bill for a Cz-75ish 10mm. Unless you are saying you want the CZ brand.
I also think the Witness might be a better handle than the CZ.
As I recall you can't cycle the action of the CZ with the safety engaged. One of the things I like about the Witness is I can clear the gun with the safety on.
Well since +P+ can be any pressure the ammo manufacturer wants and is at least 42,000 psi can you really blame Grand Power for not recommending it? They're not the only company who feels that way either and as a small company I can't really blame them. I don't think it's fair to single them out for not approving the use of high pressure ammo in their guns especially when there's no limit on how high that pressure can be. I think a 357 Sig is what you really need if high performance 9mm is your goal. As for the 10mm Grand Power it's too early to tell. You can't really judge the capability of their 10mm gun based on what they tell you not to do with their 9mm gun.
It can't be any pressure. By definition +p+ is higher than defined pressure but lower than a proof round. Basically the mfg would have to design their gun to be able to eat a steady diet of proof rounds. That would be 50,000 PSI, assuming a proof load 130% above 9X19 +P (38,500 PSI X 1.30)
Quote from: wadcutter on December 16 2015 09:25:34 AM MST
Well since +P+ can be any pressure the ammo manufacturer wants and is at least 42,000 psi can you really blame Grand Power for not recommending it? They're not the only company who feels that way either and as a small company I can't really blame them. I don't think it's fair to single them out for not approving the use of high pressure ammo in their guns especially when there's no limit on how high that pressure can be. I think a 357 Sig is what you really need if high performance 9mm is your goal. As for the 10mm Grand Power it's too early to tell. You can't really judge the capability of their 10mm gun based on what they tell you not to do with their 9mm gun.
Yes and no. Did you look at the link I posted up there? It shows much of what you question including Federal and Winchester setting their limits at 42k.
I possibly did ask that sales representative prior if it would run those ammos and got a yes. Then it was already at the FFL and I asked about running those ammos and the waffling began. It was yes, then no, then three MFG's. All the while I have some Eagle Imports sponsored shooter saying no the entire time. As you can see I posted other gun MFG's guidelines for ammo types.
In the end it was a final answer of go with the manual and shoot standard only.
42,000 is the commonly accepted ceiling as that is a standard 9X19 proof round. The spec on +p+ was not clear to me if it was based on 130% of the standard, non +p ammo, or if it was based on +p ammo*130%.
Either way, it is not a moving target for a gun maker. It is a high standard though.
I like the way Glock handles it. Basically they say +p is fine, and +p+ won't hurt you, but will wear out your gun faster.
No matter. Looks like GP is not gonna rock the 10mm world.
We don't have +P and +P+ for 10mm. Then what?
I have always heard those ammo types wear a gun out faster. I can't find a documented case of it though and most people concur.
I don't think any of mine have wore out differently. My Hunter still chugs along and looks new.
Ya, I've looked at a bunch of witnesses.. Only ones I liked or came recommended were the elite match and above. And from reading here they many times need work to make them run well. They are still a good consideration and an elite match is on the list.. But I do love the CZs and the ones i have owned were phenomenal shooters with perfect reliability. Seem to be tanks,made me think good basis for strtong 10mm...think they would make them well.
Regardless of whether or not their 9mm pistols will handle +P, or +P+, it is irrelevant to any comparison to 10mm or developing a platform for it. The bore volume and cross-sectional area is key, and puts the 10mm, in relation to the platforms, in a much different class. A ~10% greater diameter does not equate to a mere 10% increase of force management. It's exponential, simply. Otherwise, we'd have a bunch of 9mm-frame pistols chambered in 10mm. A 9mm+P+ round in a 10mm frame is a pussycat. 9mm fired from my G20 requires an 11# RSA. +P will cycle with a 15#, but is unreliable with the OEM 17# or greater, in my pistol. A 9mm+P+ round fired from 10mm barrel won't cycle at all, not unlike firing a .40SW or 10mm in a .45ACP barrel. I do NOT recommend or condone trying this. These were safety tests under controlled conditions. Nothing remarkable happened (other than destroyed brass), but that doesn't mean it won't at some time.
The bottom line is, they will have to start over and design a 10mm platform from scratch. Or not, it seems.
It seems the barrels are what they are scared of having an issue. The 10mm is on a different frame P40L.
Quote from: will965 on December 16 2015 06:10:05 PM MST
Ya, I've looked at a bunch of witnesses.. Only ones I liked or came recommended were the elite match and above. And from reading here they many times need work to make them run well. They are still a good consideration and an elite match is on the list.. But I do love the CZs and the ones i have owned were phenomenal shooters with perfect reliability. Seem to be tanks,made me think good basis for strtong 10mm...think they would make them well.
I have to disagree with you on this one. The Match runs right out of the box! You should spring it and/or do a few things to keep it looking new forever, but they chew any ammunition out there like gum. The slightly cheaper option is a full-size 10mm in Steel that runs great.
IC nailed it. The full size needed mag springs in the old red follower mags. The new black follower mags, no changes needed. The ones you read about are because lots of us like to tinker, not because we had reliability issues.
Both my Witness 10mm hang with my Glock 20 and 29 for reliability. And they handle lead better.
Quote from: Intercooler on December 17 2015 02:24:17 AM MST
It seems the barrels are what they are scared of having an issue. The 10mm is on a different frame P40L.
I suspect that's just an excuse. The don't
want to do it, for whatever reason. The barrel is the least-weak link.
They had a frame issue and changed the design. They also had a barrel issue/recall for "heat treatment" due to failures. That design looks the same in the new model.
If they're worried about barrel issues, after fixing the issue, then they haven't fixed the issue. Just doesn't make sense to me, other than they just don't have an interest in actually entertaining the idea. Talk is cheap.
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 17 2015 08:05:31 AM MST
IC nailed it. The full size needed mag springs in the old red follower mags. The new black follower mags, no changes needed. The ones you read about are because lots of us like to tinker, not because we had reliability issues.
Both my Witness 10mm hang with my Glock 20 and 29 for reliability. And they handle lead better.
That's great to hear..... I love the match and it just moved up tyop of the list!!! Thanks
IMHO, the 10mm isn't served well by pistol barrels shorter than 4.5" in length. Shorter tubes result in unburned propellant, lower velocities and increased muzzle blast. None of these enhance either my shooting pleasure, or the piece's accuracy. (No need to say the 10mm short-bareled revolver isn't my cup of tea).
Let's face it, the 4.5" barrel surrenders nearly an inch to the cartridge case, leaving 3.5" of rifling. The 10mm Auto is best served by longer pistol (not revolver) barrels. While the cartridge has a "quick pressure peak", a longer slide/barrel (7-8") tends to make a long slide/barrel unwieldly. It may tame recoil, but such handguns are difficult to tote in a holster.
I truly enjoy my 6.5" barreled S&W Model 610 revolver. When you take barrel/cylinder gap into consideration, the velocity can reach those of a 7" barreled autoloader. Extensive testing with the original "full house" load from Norma FFV Amotfors conclude that an autoloading pistol with an 8" barrel is needed to harness all the power generated from both the Norma 170 and 200 grain loads.
Portability and pointability are important, but control, accuracy and power are why we are devotees of the cartridge.
I think the 10mm is ideal for a shorter pistol. Here is why.
FBI protocol external ballistics is the minimum I want to carry for personal defense. That means a .400" 180 grain JHP bullet at 950 fps at the muzzle. And the 10mm delivers this in amazingly short barrels. In fact, down to 2" according to testing by Ballistics by the Inch, using the Winchester Silvertip factory load or ammo in the Buffalo Bore/Underwood class.
That is why I think it should be discounted in short barreled guns. It helps make up for the short barrel.
The P40L is 5".
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 18 2015 08:07:53 AM MST
I think the 10mm is ideal for a shorter pistol. Here is why.
FBI protocol external ballistics is the minimum I want to carry for personal defense. That means a .400" 180 grain JHP bullet at 950 fps at the muzzle. And the 10mm delivers this in amazingly short barrels. In fact, down to 2" according to testing by Ballistics by the Inch, using the Winchester Silvertip factory load or ammo in the Buffalo Bore/Underwood class.
That is why I think it should be discounted in short barreled guns. It helps make up for the short barrel.
If this is the case, the .40 S&W would never have been developed. In know that the FBI's "smaller agents" (read women and dwarfs) couldn't handle the larger grip-frame of the 10mm Auto. The .40 S&W works well in shorter barrels due to the cartridge's shorter case.
I pick it up this evening. I will throw up some barrel comparison pictures tonight. Anyone have a picture or measurement request?
Quote from: Captain O on December 18 2015 06:21:49 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 18 2015 08:07:53 AM MST
I think the 10mm is ideal for a shorter pistol. Here is why.
FBI protocol external ballistics is the minimum I want to carry for personal defense. That means a .400" 180 grain JHP bullet at 950 fps at the muzzle. And the 10mm delivers this in amazingly short barrels. In fact, down to 2" according to testing by Ballistics by the Inch, using the Winchester Silvertip factory load or ammo in the Buffalo Bore/Underwood class.
That is why I think it should be discounted in short barreled guns. It helps make up for the short barrel.
If this is the case, the .40 S&W would never have been developed. In know that the FBI's "smaller agents" (read women and dwarfs) couldn't handle the larger grip-frame of the 10mm Auto. The .40 S&W works well in shorter barrels due to the cartridge's shorter case.
I see I am quoted here, but I can't connect the dots on what you are saying about my statements.
Could the CZ-97 be altered (e.g. heavier slide, slightly heavier recoil and main springs) to balance out the increased recoil impulse of the 10mm Auto cartridge? I can't think of a more efficient platform for the "Mighty 10".
It seems to be the next logical step.
Captain O
http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/10mm-cz-97b/
Someone did a conversion. I don't see anything it offers over a Witness Elite gun.
Here is my range report from today's first trials:
http://10mm-firearms.com/range-reports/first-time-grand-power-k100-9mm/msg52507/#new
It doesn't appear to handle high impulse rounds well. In looking at the Chrony numbers the gas seal is suffering as well dropping velocities (possibly fouling and causing the malfunctions). The highest octane stuff I tried this time out was NATO, no +P/+P+ and from what I'm seeing the 10mm ammos will magnify it.
I will tear it down for a good cleaning and try nothing but Perfecta 115gr FMJ fodder the next time out. I would like to see it go several hundred rounds without a single issue though.