Back on June 21st Intercooler posted the following video for us -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C7OEG_OlhU&feature=channel&list=UL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C7OEG_OlhU&feature=channel&list=UL)
It showed 9 of Underwood's 10mm 200gr XTP load being chronographed among other loads, through a G20 with a stock length Lone Wolf barrel. In this thread I'm only meaning to reference the UW loads.
The UW rounds hit the following velocities in fps (not in this order):
1239, 1240, 1255, 1255, 1259, 1259, 1279, 1291, and 1299.
Just back on September 25th RDub01 took apart some Underwood 180gr TMJ rounds that proved the use of 800X for that load.
Now I don't know if Underwood is using 800X behind their 200XTP loads. I would expect they are. If they are, and from a 4.6" Lone Wolf barrel in a Glock 20, to hit 1291fps and 1299fps as was demonstrated in the video, wouldn't that be hitting some pretty serious pressure levels? Like 40,000psi?
I'm kinda wondering what the brass looked like from those two rounds that hit 1291fps and 1299fps. I'm kinda wondering if the guy that did the video was lucky he was shooting them from a Lone Wolf barrel having better chamber support over his stock G20 barrel. I'm kinda wondering if Underwood is a bit sloppy in the use of 800X. I'm kinda wondering if any of the other rounds from the box of 50 would have went beyond 1300fps, being that he only shot 9 rounds out of a box of 50. I'm not wondering if the chronograph was in error, as all the other loads but one fell in the range of 1239-1259fps, as I would expect from that Underwood load, which very may well already be pushing safe load pressures in a bone stock G20.
I've seen handloaders results online using 800X in G20s and no where have I seen a 200XTP at basically 1300fps being considered safe with a stock G20 barrel.
I don't know. I'm still learning a lot. Just seems like a recipe for disaster to me. Thoughts? Am I just paranoid?
If anyone here has any of those Underwood 10mm 200gr XTP rounds, and wouldn't mind pulling one apart to see if 800X appears to being used, and how much of it, that would be awesome.
I will save you the hassle and ammo. Across the board 800-X in all even the 220's.
Also noticed those outliers, implying inconsistent loading. Other vendors' shots showed lower variations.
I want a vendor that offers true 10mm performance, but I am a bit concerned about Underwood overdoing it.
If something bad happens, he's likely to overly back off and we would lost a vendor for decent loads.
I think you are reading too much into it. Chronographs and pistols can all have functioning issues at any given time. Seems you are talking Match grade ammo?
Me personally after shooting just about all of them I would be more scared shooting a SwampFox round than an Underwood.
This is the exact reason I roll my own! 9.4 grains of 800X under the 200XTP showed 1240-1260 from my pistols. I find no reason to push harder...BTW SwampFox used 9.4 grains of LongShot for 1240 fps loading and 9.7 or 9.9 grains to achieve 1325 fps from fully supported chambered barrels. He claimed they were pressure tested with in the normal 10mm MAP. :o
One of you reloaders can you post the pressure of the powders in question? I know I saw it here somewhere before showing 800-X, Longshot and Blue Dot if you have it. From what I remember 800-X was the lowest pressure of all of them.
Quote from: harrygunner on October 19 2012 08:27:12 PM MDT
Also noticed those outliers, implying inconsistent loading. Other vendors' shots showed lower variations.
Yeah, normally I wouldn't think much to do about an extreme spread of 60fps like with the Underwood 200XTP load. But when you're already pushing it in a commercial load.....and then to see the numbers bouncing up to 1299fps.....how long till one above that blows a magazine out of the magazine well, or worse? 800X is awesome, but it ain't foolproof like AA#9. And on top of it all to be messing around with this sort of inconsistency with a heavy for caliber bullet weight.
I'm seeing it like this; If the Underwood 200XTP loads showed good consistency, no problem, I might just go to an aftermarket just for that load and forget about it. But with that kind of inconstency when already somewhat pushing it, I just don't know. And then the other thing I wonder is; Was it just that box of 50? Like just a fluke? I don't know, but I'ld hate to err on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt, just to later wonder why my Glock blew up in my hand.
Some of the other velocity results from the same video:
Double Tap 200gr Nosler load = 1141, 1148, 1154, 1157, and 1164 (ES = 23)
Hornady Factory 200gr XTP load = 1103, 1105, 1110, and 1117 (ES = 14)
Then from the other video Intercooler posted:
Hornady Factory 180gr XTP load = 1197, 1204, 1205, and 1218 (ES = 21)
Winchester 175gr Silvertip load = 1199, 1211, 1212, 1213, and 1235 (ES = 36)
Corbon 180gr load = 1176, 1180, 1183, 1187, 1203, and 1231 (ES = 55)
Underwood 180gr XTP = 1278, 1311, 1316, 1336, and 1346 (ES = 68)
Underwood 180gr GD = 1316, 1326, 1330, 1350, and 1359 (ES = 43)
Double Tap 180gr Nolser = 1202, 1244, 1251, 1256, and 1259 (ES = 57)
I wonder how much further ES might have spread with 9 of each of the above fired. You know what else is funny to me; we see a UW 200XTP reach 1299fps, and then the UW 180s above only reaching a max of 1350fps. Like he's pushing more of a limit with the 200s than the 180s, though possibly not on purpose which is even scarier.
I just don't know. Still pondering.
Quote from: harrygunner on October 19 2012 08:27:12 PM MDT
If something bad happens, he's likely to overly back off and we would lost a vendor for decent loads.
That would be sad indeed.
It's real simple actually. You can 1... use another brand such as DoubleTap or Buffalo Bore. Option 2 is call Kevin and have him load them down to where YOU feel safe! Option 3 is call Kevin and share with him how you feel his loadings are unsafe and he should water them down some or switch powders because they aren't consistent enough. Option 4 is what has been suggested about rolling your own which will be all on you. It's a shame Kevin and his company have been getting bashed lately here while to the best of my knowledge nobody has experienced a failure or even really bad pressure signs other than shooting his ammo in pistols not up to the task. I haven't even heard anything about primers or components being bad down to the bullets (saw the DoubleTap one on here now that is funny). Just like the complaining about his hard cast, call the man up and offer solutions or bounce something off him since he is about as open as anyone to ideas. How do you think his 10mm got this far? He for sure tests alot and I have sent him some ammo to look at. I talk to him once or twice a week every week and will even relay the message to him if you don't want to contact him. Let me know what the message is though.
His .357 Sig performance was down a decent amount. It's fixed now and tnoutdoors9 did a video showing just how good they did:
His .357 Mag 125's were down and he fixed those. His heavy Magnums were down and I'm hoping to test his newest batch real soon. Both of these I gave him my honest opinion on where they were at and I think these too will be fixed.
If Kevin has interest it would probably be just as well that he reads this thread. This thread has nothing to do with outright bashing of Underwood ammo. It is simply that concerns are being voiced. Not that big of deal really, is it?
Maybe there is no issue. I don't know. I'm not an expert. I don't have pressure testing equipment like I would expect Kevin does. I'm just bringing up what appears to be inconsistency with an already hot 200XTP load that has future disaster possibly written all over it depending on how far the inconsistency with that specific load may be capable of going.
And then again, maybe there isn't a possibility of anything negative. Simply brought it up for conversation and to possibly learn something from someone else that I don't already know, and to anyone interested.
Unfortunately I don't believe Kevin comes here. It's like talking on deaf ears but he does respond to questions about his ammo on the Glock Talk board and his Facebook page. When I have rang his phone I have never gotten anyone but Kevin and that's the best route.
I too complain if you want to call it that. I have told McNett his stuff wasn't performing before and then again when it was real close. This last week DoubleTap had the strongest 158gr .357 I have tested to date, so I need to also pat him on the back when I get a chance 1428 FPS/715 LBS out of a 4". I told HPR they priced their ammo out of being in the competition with others that are out there offering the same for much less now a couple of weeks ago and got a... we think we are! Most respond but Cor-Bons 180's being 100 FPS low got no response twice. If you don't get an answer try a different method but best way is head-on instead of discussion boards (especially ones they don't have a presence).
In case you haven't seen it anything that gets posted here gets an answer:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Underwood-Ammo/161365970629450?fref=ts
I thought Underwood tested all his 10mm out of a stock glock 20 to make sure it was safe/functional.
He very well may have tested the 10mm loads in various platforms after carefully working up the loads he did test in various platforms. But that is pretty much irrelevant if the loads on the production line aren't worked up carefully anymore.
Even though I wouldn't think highly of this, for arguements sake I could see if the loading practice was set up to be within a range of powder charges from maximum - safer even if velocities dropped some, but not in a powder charge range that goes from maximum - overmax.
I would certainly think they aren't weighing the powder charges by hand, because if they are, either the employee(s) doesn't care, or they use one really messed up scale. And if they are being loaded progressively on a progressive press or machine of some sort, it would seem the equipment they are using is only capable of a certain amount of powder charge accuracy that is probably adjusted too liberally to keep overloads under control.
Either way I simply can't imagine that hitting basically 1300fps with 800X will always be safe in a stock G20 or G29. I hope I'm wrong, or that it was just a fluke to begin with. Who ever chronographs enough of them to know how many are reaching 1300fps or beyond. My biggest curiosity is what pressure level Kevin's recipe peaks at for the rounds that do hit 1300fps.
Of course he tests them many times over before being released to the public. That's how the ratings are established and published.
Nobody is twisting arms to shoot Underwood Ammo. More than a little data and videos are out there (more than any I know of actually). It's been taken apart, duplicated, examined, scrutinized... darned near everything. Other options exist but even BVAC with their putrid representation of a 10mm loading was able to make some sort of mess-up prompting a recall. I can't speak to the pressures because I don't know. I know in my firearms I never saw a sign of pressure from Underwood Ammo in any weight. I can't say the same about Armscor and that was a pretty mid-level round at the time. I guess I'm not getting what you want from the highest performing 10mm ammo on the market? Did you contact Kevin about your concerns because in reality he is the only one that can answer them.
Clearly you've missed the point entirely.
I guess I did. I'm fine shooting anything in Kevin's lineup any caliber, weight or bullet type and have. I trust him!
(http://bullybloggers.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/dfp_500telephone.jpg) him up.
LOL