I've been lurking different forums and decided i really want a 10mm. Im already reloading 9mm so just gotta get dies. However, can't decide between the RIA 10mm fs or the base witness steel fs. I want the most bang for my buck, and im really leaning towards the ria for reliability/customer service for any issues i might have out of the box. If the witness steel frame/slide issues have been worked out, the price is a little easier to swallow. It'd be nice to use whichever i get as a carry option. Weight doesn't bother me ( carry a 4" ruger sp101 a lot of the time). If the witness is significantly wider that would dampen its prospects. However im torn on getting a 1911 as the idea sounds nice but i only get the same number of rounds as the .45 versions and its nuances with takedown.
Ria 1911 pros: still less than 1k, good cs to backup reliability. Cons: heavy with only 10 rds at best with aftermarket mags, may need to be shipped back for work
Witness Steel fs pros: cheaper, good ergonomics, 14+ rds, sa/da. Cons: possible failure in some, not nearly the cs to back it up as ria, slightly wider (assuming), possible need to buy new guide rod and such, bringing price up to ria level
I dont buy guns often, so any reccomendations? Any thing i missed? Also, dont want a glock , feel better with a safety around kids, dont want to buy a new barrel just to save brass and support chamber, etc.
First, welcome! As to your questions, either the RIA or the EAA would serve you well. I'm partial to the Witness, however the Rock would be a good choice too. You might check out a used gun since this is your first 10mm. I have seen many in my area in the $350-$450 range mostly Glocks which wouldn't be a bad choice for a first timer. They are reliable and not that hard to sell. If you decide you love the 10mm then the flood gates can open and you can look over a nice 1911, or a nice Witness, Sig Sauer, Dan Wesson or even some of the Boutique builders. Some others will chime in with some other thoughts I'm sure. Good Luck!
JB
For the price of a new RIA 10mm 1911, you can get a Witness ELite Match. And between those two, IMHO there is really no contest. The Elite Match is easily the winner.
Also, dont want a glock , feel better with a safety around kids, dont want to buy a new barrel just to save brass and support chamber, etc.
Glocks are decent reliable guns, and not overly $$.
But as to having to buy a new barrel, not necessarily... the newer gen 3 and 4 have enough support and I've never seen a "smile" with my reloads. Tho the chambers are looser than others, the standard die sets will resize fine in all but the hottest loads ( imo, some are to hot from the high end companies )
I'm Witness hardcore, but you might want to jump on a Grand Power when this next batch arrives. I'm also hardcore steel, although the machining and ease of mods for the GP make it a nice option!
I say go with the witness. Also if you were willing to pay the ria price I say go for the match as well. I have one and it shoots as well as guns 3 times its price.
Quote from: Hooverfb on March 27 2016 02:44:21 PM MDT......Also, dont want a glock , feel better with a safety around kids, dont want to buy a new barrel just to save brass and support chamber, etc.
If these are your only reasons to not consider a Glock, I suggest reconsidering the (out of the box) reliability and real cash savings advantages. While Glock chambers typically tend to be more generous than some others (not all), there are only a small number of retail rounds that will see any affect of this. Almost none of the big-name brands will show any of this. At the same time, many, if not most, of the Glock alternatives will have functional issues with higher power boutique or handload ammunition, and require similar consideration with ammo selection, or weapon accommodation.
As far as the "child safety" goes, the only methods that work effectively are control of access and education. If a child gets a loaded handgun in their hands, the "safety" is of little real concern. If they can fire it, they will. If there's a button or a lever, they'll push it. There is no statistic that I'm aware of that places Glock, or any pistol of similar design, above any other with a manual safety. The same applies with negligent (accidental) discharge. If it's the "feel-good" factor you are after, manual safeties for Glock pistols are inexpensive and easy to install. "Siderlock", for example, works as advertised and requires no permanent modification or 'smith work.
Glock G 29 is the way to go. If the gun is not on you it needs to be secure. I educate all my kids about firearms, in fact they need to know gun safety and basic marksmanship before they even drive.
The choices are really very subjective.
Keep,your option open and see if any ranges in your area allow the rental of different 10mm. If you shoot them you will realize very quickly which might be the "right" choice.
I agree p, do not discount the Glock it may or may not be a gun for you. The others mentioned may serve you well too.
If at all possible try it before you by it.
Good luck with your adventure and welcome to the 10MM club!
Thanks for all the responses! As far as the RIA prices, where I'm looking they're a hair more than gen 3 glocks, and 100-150 less than the Witness Match. If I could find a Match at the prices I'm seeing the RIA it'd be a no brainer :). Probably sounds like nickel and dimeing, but such is such.
If I find a glock 20 for 350-450 i'd probably give it a long hard look at least. I never cared too much for them until I started looking at 10mm( now I kind of like the simple utilitarian look). If the brass bulge on Gen3s isn't that bad i'd really have to consider it (awesome round coupled with glock reliability ).. also agree with everyone on child safety. Just had my first, and plan on teaching him the proper safety and respect for firearms. The safety isn't a must ( I carry a DA revolver) but to me it's more like carrying a single action revolver with the hammer cocked ( only in this case the striker is encased in the frame, so bump isn't an issue). Relatively similar give or take, but makes me a little uneasy still ( nothing proper training and time can't overcome ).likewise if it isnt with me or my wife, its separate from the ammo with ammo locked up separately. I guess I'm more concerned with accidental toddler bumps etc ( again highly unlikely, whens the last time a toddler stuck their finger through tough leather and had enough force tk pull a trigger) than storage ( if they get there hands on it, a small switch/button wont stop them).
I've been trying to find a local range that has a 10mm, but so far no luck.
Right now the witness fs is roughly 100 less than RIA , and Match is 150ish more than that. The glock with a safety installed ( or carry without a round chambered) sounds really enticing to me.. but the width is also offputting to me. I'm relatively average/thin guy, 6ft 155 athleticish ( no more running on my ankle tendons means this is going up quick haha) so while weight may not be an issue, width can. I can dress pretty well around my sr9c with the 17 rd mag and my 4"sp101 with my existing wardrobe( mostly business casual, no jackets). is the witness much thinner than the glock? Does anyone carry g20 iwb? I see the witness base as the value play , RIA middle of the road, and Glock or Match as possibilities within consideration. That grand power seems awesome, how often do batches of them come around?
For the sake of comparison, and test drives, almost all 10mm pistols are based on .45ACP platforms. Any range that rents pistols should have a variety of .45's. Any of these fired with .45+P will be close to the feel of good 10mm of the same platform. Weak 10mm will feel like average .45ACP. Simply put, any pistol that is tolerable with .45+P won't be an issue compared to 10mm.
Henning isn't a "gun shop" but does order for people. The next shipment of GP 10's are about a week out and you can get one for $679. They have the hand feel of the Witness pistols and are a double stack hammer fired polymer pistol. The trigger is pretty exceptional right out of the box. The holster options and swapping g to any part combination (sights, laser, safety paddles, etc...) are very easy and not hard to find. Henning already makes base pads for them and will be adding more parts. I suspect down the road parts will become available to concert it to a decocker setup.
I paid $400 for my Glock 20 "out the parking lot" on a local classifieds deal. One of those pesky no-background check deals. Of course he asked to see, and I showed my CCW. And he noticed my NRA Pistol Instructor cert while I was getting the CCW out.
But, ya know, no background check. I am a moderator on the edge.
I have 10mm 1911's (Para conversions), 10mm Witness's (Standard FS and Elite Match) and Glocks (20 SF and 29). I have factory barrels in my glocks and shoot a lot of lead and a lot of reloads.
Back where I'm originally from, I'd have no problem doing a deal like yourself sqlbullet. Where we live now we actually lost a cop who was doing the same thing ( guessing it was thugs who probably stole the guns in the first place).
Sounds like i shouldn't consider the base model witness?
I really wouldn't try and steer you away from a base witness. I also have one and it functions very well and is quite accurate. I would however recommend a Glock 29. Quite compact and fully reliable, plus its corrosion proof. Something the others aren't. Not even slight resistant. Plus you mentioned width. While it is as wide as a Glock 20 it still has reduced dimensions in the right places. It is my only 10mm that I actually carry. Think of it like a thick version of your Sr9c.
I have a full size standard Witness. It runs very well and handles everything. My Elite Match was only $150 more and is way more fun to shoot at the range. But, I would never consider the Match for a carry gun.
The standard full size was my EDC for about 2-3 years. It was a solid gun. But, it was very heavy compared to a Glock 20. And an absolute albatross compared to a Glock 29.
For a full size duty gun, I can't say anything bad about the full-size witness.
Well ended up getting the RIA fullsize 1911 for about 600. Was comparing dimensions, and its actually an in shorter in oal than my revolver, whil gaining an inch in barrel length, and same width roughly. I think it fits the role of being moderately good in a lot of things but not ace at any. Plus the longer stock barrel will be nice for hunting. Thanks for all the replies guys, will post a pic once its in my hands.
Let us know how she does at the range later.
Finnnaalllyy got out to the range ( had a lot going on). Took a while to dial it in, but was able to put some nice groups together with it.
Found i was having issues with the mag they sent, seemed the bullet was stuck when trying to feed and wouldnt quite come out. then around the 40 rounds mark, started having the magazine fall out while shooting, or wouldnt quite catch in very stiff.
Disclaimer on the above is that i didnt clean it first. A little disheartened , but seems mostly to be magazine issues, andnothing ria's policy wont cover. Overall as my first 10 i loved it. Pretty smooth shooter for all the stuff i heard about 10mm, was using sig fmj 180 grains running around 1250 fps.
Quote from: Hooverfb on August 07 2016 11:53:22 AM MDT
Finnnaalllyy got out to the range ( had a lot going on). Took a while to dial it in, but was able to put some nice groups together with it.
Found i was having issues with the mag they sent, seemed the bullet was stuck when trying to feed and wouldnt quite come out. then around the 40 rounds mark, started having the magazine fall out while shooting, or wouldnt quite catch in very stiff.
Disclaimer on the above is that i didnt clean it first. A little disheartened , but seems mostly to be magazine issues, andnothing ria's policy wont cover. Overall as my first 10 i loved it. Pretty smooth shooter for all the stuff i heard about 10mm, was using sig fmj 180 grains running around 1250 fps.
Do some poking around on the forums, I dare say a fair number of RIA's have trouble straight from the factory. With a small cost in parts and a few minutes, you can have it running like a top.
To start with, for the mag issues. I highly reccomend some wolf replacement heavier springs. Nearly all of my mag troubles were related to not being able to get the round up and seated in the small window during the time in which the slide is back.
Amazed a new RIA ran that well if you didn't clean and lube it. The ones (in 45) I have bought new had a heavy packing grease/wax on them. Vote for new mag or springs in the one you have, but maybe just taking it apart and cleaning the shipping gunk out of it will make it work better.
Yeah the oil/cosmoline was a bit heavy (nothing like a mosin nagant packed in it) so I think that may account for my issues first time out. The bullets were getting stuck in a way such that i couldn't easily push them in or out, and so weren't feeding correctly. Fealt like it could be some of the wax gunk building up and/or dripping in and causing problems. Guess its an excuse to take it to the range again and find out :). If it still occurs I'll call ria first, then possibly look into new mags/mag springs. What's the consensus on good mags for these? I've heard mixed reviews on the wilson combat 9 rounders, but it'd be nice to get an extra bullet.
For reliability, lighter recoil, accuracy, and price, get a Gen 4 Glock 20.
I have a brand new Glock 20SF that fails a check of the recoil spring assembly. I didn't care as I have no intent to shoot it with a factory recoil spring assembly but just thought I'd mention it. If you are getting a Glock check that out. The procedure to check one is (with an unloaded gun magazine out) pull the trigger and hold it back, hold the gun strait up, retract the slide fully, ride the slide forward as in release it very slowly. If the recoil spring assembly is good the gun should still full close. This is how they teach you to check it in the armorer's class.