So i have been wanting to get my hands on a 10mm for a while ever since a friend got me hooked with his dan wesson, Sadly i can not afford $3300 to get the same one i was introduced to but i have narrowed it down to either a Colt delta or the EAA steel Tanfoglio, Im leaning towards the EAA for the higher compacity mag and lower price, But im also torn because the delta would make a better carry gun then my battered old taurus pt99 that i currently use and seems an all around better pistol even if its right on the edge of what i can afford.
My big concern with the EAA is the few reviews i have found have been mixed with a few saying even in steel they tend to crack under normal pressure loads god forbid +p and as I've already had a glock explode in my hands and half remove a few fingers im a bit leery of any gun with a reputaion to explode to be entirely honest but figure i will ask people here who actully own one and know about them.
I've also seen an Armscor in 10mm but know nothing of them if anyone has an opinion?
Anyway any advice is appreacted greatly!
I have no idea where you read those reviews (can you share?). Most of us that have been around the 10mm for a while know which has the better chance of blowing up on you... hint hint below
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/My%20stuff/100_6887_zps84935a16.jpg)
Unless you get some bad ammo the EAA piece will mow through it all. The Delta will work too if you keep tabs on it looking at your spent shell casings.
Which EAA piece are you looking at? Many people here carry them it seems.
I went with the Witness steel and love it! it is actually about the same size as my full size 1911 .45 acp but a tad thicker. the stuff you heard about Witness cracking is about some long ago discontinued model. the newer ones are able to handle the hottest ammo.
Quote from: Intercooler on August 19 2016 06:37:43 PM MDT
I have no idea where you read those reviews (can you share?). Most of us that have been around the 10mm for a while know which has the better chance of blowing up on you... hint hint below
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/rutledri/My%20stuff/100_6887_zps84935a16.jpg)
Unless you get some bad ammo the EAA piece will mow through it all. The Delta will work too if you keep tabs on it looking at your spent shell casings.
Which EAA piece are you looking at? Many people here carry them it seems.
Sure
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=484517
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/130199_Anybody_have_a_E_A_A___10mm_Witness_Tanfoglio_.html
And a few others i cant find right now, As for the colt im kinda suprised to be honest ive always heard colt 1911s were some of the best you could get, Well that solved which gun im getting.
Quote from: blaster on August 19 2016 07:04:24 PM MDT
I went with the Witness steel and love it! it is actually about the same size as my full size 1911 .45 acp but a tad thicker. the stuff you heard about Witness cracking is about some long ago discontinued model. the newer ones are able to handle the hottest ammo.
Ok sounds good, The 2 i am looking at are the witness steel full size or the witness elite match, Though im unsure if the extra $250 is worth it for the match, This is actully going to be a replacement for my tarurs pt99af for CC, As much as i love my 99 its pretty worn out at this point and while im sure it has many more years of life i would rather have something new and with a bigger punch especally with crime going through the roof in my area.
I have both the Delta Elite and the Witness Elite Match. I enjoy both. I choose the Elite Match because I wanted the SA trigger and I was doing some friendly IDPA shooting at the time, so the longer slide/barrel was also a benefit. I've only open carried this gun as it is pretty large both in length and weight, and I'm a relatively slim guy.
You mentioned wanting to CC. You might consider that the Witness Steel Full Size is 75% the weight of the Elite Match and almost 3/4" shorter. Maybe someone who owns both can comment on other differences.
When I bought by 10mm Witness I was a bit overwhelmed by all the choices. I'm still not sure I picked the right one. I guess that probably means I just need to buy more and do some firsthand comparisons. [emoji3]
Welcome to the world of 10mm! Warning: 10mm shooting can be addictive.
I said it time and time again on this forum, no problems with my Colt Delta and I shoot most 10mm @ 1200 fps and more and I shoot alot!!
Quote from: 14 GT-500 on August 20 2016 08:49:02 AM MDT
I said it time and time again on this forum, no problems with my Colt Delta and I shoot most 10mm @ 1200 fps and more and I shoot alot!!
Same here.
Underwood also does not have that warning on their 10mm boxes any more.
Wasn't the Delta originally made when the Norma spec ammo was what was available as the only standard?
Even if the Colt was just as good as the Witness the price difference is substantial. As a small dealer I would never want to deal with Colt on any issue. You ought to consider the polymer Witness as well. You can also carry a Witness cocked and locked or in da mode locked or not.
I was thinking the same thing, How old is that box of Underwood ? The 155gr and my 180 gr loads don't seem to have that warning on the ammo box :o Also I bet you I have went through my Colt Delt Elite owners manual a half dozen times and no where can I find were it say's do not Use Underwood, Double Tap, Corbon ammo because the gun will crack or blow up fall apart etc etc. Lets face it if the gun was as bad as most of you think, wouldn't Colt stop making it or there would be some law suites ?? Really.
It's not that the DE is bad. The thing you just can't ignore or call par for the course is the unramped barrel. Over the years Colt addressed the frame cracking issue and I have no idea why they never changed the barrel. Until they do that, it will never be up to par with the other 1911's that have it for = or less money.
I can't speak about lawsuits early on when the frames were cracking (anyone know?). It seems I recall Colt saying the DE is good for any Norma spec ammo and some of our new offerings exceed that.
Quote from: Sneed on August 20 2016 05:19:53 PM MDT
Even if the Colt was just as good as the Witness the price difference is substantial. As a small dealer I would never want to deal with Colt on any issue. You ought to consider the polymer Witness as well. You can also carry a Witness cocked and locked or in da mode locked or not.
Ill pass on the polymer frame, haveing my hand turned into hamburger by a polymer glock that exploded tends to give me a very very low opinion of polymer in general, Call me a coward but every time i see a polymer frame gun all i see is my hand after the last polymer gun i tried, Besides im used to carrying around 50 pounds plus of gear for 12+ hours thanks to my last job so a 2 pound metal gun is not a big issue especally because i use a small of the back carry belt that even when pressing looks like a back brace.
As for the rest of you thanks for your opinions! I have it narrowed doen to the witness elite match steel for $728 or witness full size steel for $506 at the local gun shop, As far as i can find these are good prices but i cant decide if the match is worth the extra $200 or not.
What do you folks think?
I'm with you! I have grown to really dislike plastic guns.
I wouldnt rule out Rock Island, If your leaning the 1911, good price and can have a lot of nice features over the colt.
A steel witness will serve you well.
There were no catastrophic failures of any witness guns due to cracking.
There was a limited run of guns that had issues with the slides cracking near the ejection port. This was traced to a batch of slides that did not get annealed properly after heat treatment and were brittle. EAA/Tanfoglio made them right, though for some of the early customers it was painful thanks to EAA's horrible customer service.
Some of the frames will develop a stress crack between the mag release and the grip panel relief cuts. This crack in no way effects safety and function of the gun. My Elite Match has such a crack and I could not care less. In fact, I had no idea it was there until I read about them and then looked for one on mine. Further, this seems only effect the chromed frame of the Elite Match. Chroming can make steel brittle by hydrogen exposure, and I think that is what happened here.
In any event, the EAA guns are tanks. I have run very hot loads through mine, and compared to many of the reloaders here I am very conservative. The Delta is a nice piece of history, and I regret selling mine. But or a solid, all steel 10mm handgun that won't let you down in the $500 price range, the Witness is a great option.
What Glock did you own that blew up?
Quote from: macc283 on August 22 2016 03:50:47 PM MDT
What Glock did you own that blew up?
I didnt own it i was test firing a brand new one at the range getting ready to buy it, I believe it was a glock 26, I do remimber it was a 9mm, But it was a while ago and my mom was handing me guns to try as for my 18th she was getting me a handgun so im not 100% sure off the top of my head ill ask her next time i talk to her.
But using the ammo the shop provided the entire left side turned into a frag granade and turned the entire top of my hand into hamburger and half severed 2 fingers and the tip of my right thumb, as i said before not the best introduction to handguns.
I bought a Delta Elite when they first came out in the 80's. I've owned hundreds of guns in my time, and it was by far the least accurate gun I have ever owned. The thing shot patterns, not groups. I imagine the new ones must be better...........
I also have a large frame steel Witness. What I like about the Witness most is the fact that I can order all sorts of different barrels and slides from EAA and configure it anyway I like. I can convert mine to 22LR, 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 SW, 10mm, 40 Super, and 45 ACP.
Tony
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Pistols/WitnessJunk_zpsdxsbdbdl.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/TonyRumore/media/Pistols/WitnessJunk_zpsdxsbdbdl.jpg.html)
That's a pretty nice collection you have going there!
Quote from: TonyRumore on August 23 2016 05:08:43 PM MDT
I bought a Delta Elite when they first came out in the 80's. I've owned hundreds of guns in my time, and it was by far the least accurate gun I have ever owned. The thing shot patterns, not groups. I imagine the new ones must be better...........
I also have a large frame steel Witness. What I like about the Witness most is the fact that I can order all sorts of different barrels and slides from EAA and configure it anyway I like. I can convert mine to 22LR, 9mm, 357 Sig, 40 SW, 10mm, 40 Super, and 45 ACP.
Tony
(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l246/TonyRumore/Pistols/WitnessJunk_zpsdxsbdbdl.jpg) (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/TonyRumore/media/Pistols/WitnessJunk_zpsdxsbdbdl.jpg.html)
Very nice! That was something i didnt know you could do and is one hell of a way to increase the size of my rather small collection without breaking the bank, I should be getting my witness in a few weeks here when im back from this otr trip and ill post images.
Also at mcc it was infact a glock 26 i checked today.
I'm still kicking my ass about not holding on to my Hunter .45 upper to .460 Rowland it. I don't have regrets about any decisions except that one!
will the Hunter slide fit on the standard frame?
Quote from: Arctic_fox on August 23 2016 11:59:44 PM MDT
...is one hell of a way to increase the size of my rather small collection without breaking the bank...
Don't be too quick to judge on that one. EAA is raping people these days on the price of kits and parts. A conversion kit costs as much as a whole new Witness. For the price of a Witness Steel in 10mm and a 9mm or 45 upper, you could buy two Glocks and some ammo.
It's unfortunate to say, but EAA is pricing out of the running anymore. It's sad that buying a whole new pistol is almost the better option.
The .22 kits are still very reasonable. I recently got one for my Elite Match 10mm for $150. I had several malfunctions the first 150-200 rounds but it is working much better now and it is more accurate than I expected. I would really like a .357 SIG conversion for this gun.
I own the two witness guns you've mentioned. While the Match has a much nicer trigger, it weighs quite a bit more with some pretty sharp edges. Though, I'd rather shoot the Match, I would rather carry the standard full size.
Quote from: Dave84 on August 24 2016 11:31:44 AM MDT
Though, I'd rather shoot the Match, I would rather carry the standard full size.
Agree 100%.
I think intercooler is full of crap. The sky is falling the sky is falling--The frames that cracked on Colt 10's were because of a piece remaining on the first few CDE's. Everyone loves to knock COLT-after the frame was modified it never happened again, but you all are still running in circles.
You can NEVER compare a CDE to a glock, are you'll kidding.
My CDE will shoot circles around any other 10 out there stock out of the box. OH I FORGOT THE BARREL ISNT SUPPORTED WHEN DID YOU SEE YOUR LAST
CDE.
I even heard of some glock shooters trying to resize a empty 10 fired from a glock, you have to first buy a special made pre resize die before you can resize it and it comes with a warning. Don't buy a 10 if you can't afford it. Making a 45 1911 into a 10 isn't exactly a safe way to go.
Wow....Uh...Ok.
Hate to break it to you Sliclee, but for the price of a Colt Delta Elite, I can pick up a Glock 20 and a couple caliber conversion barrels, or the same in a Witness. And I won't ever have to wonder about the Underwood ammo I shoot in my gun.
I had a Delta Elite, and it was a fine gun for 1992 when I bought it. But it is the same gun today. Still no high ride, still not extended thumb safety, and still no ramped fully supported barrel.
And mine did have the occasional jam, which my Glock and Witness don't. Your Delta Elite may be great and may well have never failed you. But if we go the range with ten each Glock 20 and Delta Elite, and burn 1,000 rounds through each...Well, the statistics won't be on your side.
Again, not saying it isn't a fine firearm. But all guns have a measurable stoppage rate, and an average sampling of Delta Elites is going to lose to an average sampling of Glock 20's in MRBS, probably by an order of magnitude.
I must have posted at the same time and it got lost.
Exactly what part was full of crap? It's a fact the frames cracked and they fixed it (stated that). It's a fact the barrel is unramped (stated that) and to the best of my current knowledge they never fixed it. I can't say the same for at least a half dozen other 10mm 1911's. I have no idea if you could load up some 230gr Hardcast Doubletap in one and mow through 100 or more rounds without a hiccup.
Everyone has something they like and I say have at it! The OP was asking about the two and IMO (me), the Witness has much more positive points than the Delta Elite.
I have a DE, an RIA, a couple of Glocks and a Sig. I'm 56 and have been shooting since i was 8. I was on a national team and achieved NRA Distinguished Expert at age 14. My point is I know a bit about firearms. I'm no expert and I don't write for magazines, but I know a few things. One of those would be that as much fun as the DE is to shoot, I don't feed it what I can feed my RIA, my Sig and my Glocks. It isn't made for a diet of 1200+ 200 grain XTP's. I'm nice to it and it is nice to me. It still shoots more powerful loads than a .40 S&W, but I don't expect it to handle the hard stuff.
Oh, and I wouldn't say that Intercooler is full of crap either. As one of the people who make this board possible he deserves more respect than that. If I were in his shoes I would have banned you. But thats just me. You can disagree with someone without taking the low road.
No banning for that and I thankfully don't have the rights, or want to do those chores. I'm no expert either, but have owned one 1911 10mm and several Witness pieces. I treat it like we are going to the range in a car discussing the two we are about to shot based on my knowledge of them. One or the other still might not work for you when we actually run them through the mill. It wouldn't bother me if you went for the Colt!
The obvious answer is both. After all this is a forum dedicated to 10mm, not a particular manufacturer.
I have a couple witnesses and a Delta. Love them both! As well as a Sig & S&W.
The new this year Delta addresses many issues people had except for the barrel. Through my research I have found it to be a non issue shooting Underwood, which is plenty hot for me.
Intercooler is a legend. Before I ever came to this site I was reading his reviews on ammo .
Takes quite a bit to get a banning around here. Look through some of the political discussions and you can see that. Generally you have to start taking specific repeated runs at a person for no good reason.
In general when the errant post goes up, lost of the conventional wisdom comes to the rescue. That is what happened here. Some people are very brand loyal. I grew up in Chevy country as a toyota man, and I get that whole thing. Intercooler is a solid guys and he took this like a champ. Hat is off to him for all he does around here. I will never match his post or topic counts, best I can do is try to stay ahead of him in time on forum.
sliclee, I hope you aren't taking this too hard either. Everyone has their bias and point of view.
Go for the new Colt Delta, you won't be sorry.
I'm going to shift the discussion a little bit from the question the OP asked. Sorry in advance for going off-topic slightly.
Like the OP, I'm trying to make up my mind on which 10MM to buy. My conundrum isn't between the DE and the Tanfoglio. I'm debating between the EAA Witness P Carry and possibly a Glock 20. I've even considered the Glock 40 and the RIA. I think my real choice is narrowed to the Witness P and the G20.
I don't think this will be a regular carry gun, just something for the range and maybe occasionally for carry. I'm motivated primarily by price, but I want something that will last.
As a side note, how readily available are magazines for the Witness? And what do they cost?
Brian, unless you don't like Glock's, then I think it is the clear choice. The witness full size is a solid gun, but the carry model can have some issues running hotter ammo. Lack of slide mass.
The Glock on the other hand will run anything, has a HUGE aftermarket and can be found if you shop and wait for about $400. That is what I paid for mine, and not that long ago.
So unless you don't like GLock, which is fine, it is a hard choice to beat.
I 2nd that on the Glock. If you consider standard full size then you pretty much have a draw. One thing though, the finish on the Glock is much tougher.
I continue to shoot anything and everything through my two Delta's. I will shoot the Underwood that states not to shoot through Delta's also if I chance on some. I have never had a issue with my Delta's. My stainless Delta gets shot a lot. My everyday working load is a 180 grain running around 1300 fps. I have shot hotter and lighter also.
The very early Delta's had a couple frames crack around the window before it was cut. That has been way over sold through the years. The same pic has been reposted over and over. In my experience the non-ramped barrel is only a issue if you are running VERY hot ammo and need to reuse your brass. It can be a little hard on it. Only the really hot stuff though in my experience. So can some of the ramped barrels also though. I am never afraid of these guns blowing up. Not afraid of it with any of my 10's. I do set them all up properly with correct springs for loads being shot. People I have seen have most problems with 1911 10's are running them out of the box stock with no mods and a steady diet of real hot stuff. With a couple minor mods 1911's will run with the best of them. In my experience.
I think the New Colt Delta Elite is one fine 10mm, I have the older style that I bought in Dec 2015 and love it. Now I am thinking about buying the new style :) When I go out to my backyard range, the 10mm Colt Delta is what I grab 85% of the time, so that should say something.
Quote from: 14 GT-500 on September 24 2016 07:05:18 AM MDT
I think the New Colt Delta Elite is one fine 10mm, I have the older style that I bought in Dec 2015 and love it. Now I am thinking about buying the new style :) When I go out to my backyard range, the 10mm Colt Delta is what I grab 85% of the time, so that should say something.
The new one is a dandy. I have resisted so far but will give in soon. Its like they read my mind of all the changes I would like to see.
With that much money you might also look at a DW Bruin.
I just put 100 rounds through my Delta Elite XE today and OMG any one who thinks these are not accurate is crazy...at least the 2016 model... Im in love with it!
Thats what I have been saying all along !! It's one hell of a gun ramp barrel or not :)
Sorry for the late reply i only just bought my 10mm today, You know how it goes, First the car breaks down then doctors bills followed by the bathroom roof colapseing because of a leak from a pipe, then the lawnmower dies, Then the car breaks down again blah, Anyway it should show up at the local ffl shop in a day or 2 when it ships, I went with the EAA steel for my first 10mm but now i gotta decide a good 10mm ammo to use as both my carry ammo and to practice play with my new family member until i can get dies and brass for my reloading kit, any recomendations?
I was thinking just armscor or seller 180 grain as a good mix between cpr and stopping power.
The Sig ammo is pretty great. I would recommend that.
Quote from: Dave84 on November 04 2016 12:30:35 PM MDT
The Sig ammo is pretty great. I would recommend that.
I second that
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So just got off the range with my new EAA and i must say i'm in love, I liked my buddys dan but this thing is a whole new level of like, Never had a gun that fit my hand this well before much less one as smooth as this one, God forbid one i could get bullseyed after 10 shots with a 5 inch pattern at 50 yard.
Ended up using some S&B as that was all the local places carried because my sportsmens order didnt show up today, Still im glad you guys talked me into the EAA instead of a Colt, I test fired that one as well since i was there and didn't like it nearly as much.