For two years I had been following the VLTOR Fortis project to reproduce a new Bren Ten. They finally got the rights to name it the Bren Ten. They even named a distributor and retailer. The all of a sudden nothing. I did a search and found a letter on their website indicating that they suspended the project because of immediate economic downturn and the need to focus on their current production items. But, there was room left for the possibility of starting up production in 2016.
I sent an e-mail inquiry to VLTOR regarding this new Bren Ten pistol and they responded in the same day. The response only indicated that they don't have any updates and that their management team was still working on the project. I have been wanting to get a Bren Ten 10mm pistol since I saw the Dornaus & Dixon ad in Shotgun News back in the 1980's. My interest was piqued again when I read about the Peregrine Falcon and the Sphinx 3000 10mm which looked like a gun I could live with instead of the Bren Ten, but, that was short lived and I missed out on the Sphinx. In the early 1990's I was able to actually handle and pulled the trigger on a Bren Ten at a gun show in Miami. The trigger was a really smooth, light double action trigger. And, the grip and ergonomics felt like holding a Browning High Power, except a little bigger. Unfortunately the price was too much.
Then I read about the VLTOR Fortis project to resurrect the Bren Ten under the Fortis name with improved CNC machining. I thought I was finally going to get a new production gun with a bunch of magazines. Now I don't know. This is one gun that I really want. But, who knows. >:(
I am not a superstitious man. That said, it sure seems the Bren Ten is cursed.
I will be shocked and amazed if anything ever comes of the VLTOR Fortis/Bren Ten. And VLTOR's handling of the the project, at least with regard to communications, is horrible. The last update was 20 months ago, and included, as every update has, an apology for lack of communication and a promise to do better.
At this point, I am not sure I want one if they are giving them away.
Well there is a real Bren Ten on Gun Broker right now, it happens to be a relisting in a shop in Baton Rouge starting bid is $3500...
I too followed the VLTOR project that Eric Kincel was trying to get going at VLTOR, he is no longer with VLTOR and went with Bravo Company known as BCM toward the end of 2012 or early 2013...VLTOR also mentioned that all of the parts for some 2500 guns were sold to a foreign buyer, this too was suspect as well.
I had a prepaid payment set with the local BPS, in hopes of obtaining a Vice Model and as we all know that never happened...but I did have a real D&D Bren Ten Standard Model to drop in my lap shortly after I took back my prepayment moneys after one year.
VLTOR hasn't shown any movement towards the remake, but I post regular remarks on their Facebook page just because I don't want them to forget...I have a file of most everything concerning the VLTOR/Fortis project that we all called "Unobtanium", "Vaporware".
It would be interesting if they would ever try to bring the Bren Ten out but many of us have a sour taste since they drug this out and all of the blatant misinformation...
One of the things that was of interest was the ammo that was slated to be produced by Black Hills Ammo to coincide with the Bren Ten release...I have never ever seen any of this ammo or if it was ever made...I do have the artwork to print the boxes that someone passed on to me...here is a segment of the box.
(https://s20.postimg.org/4j63y9hvh/Black_Hills_Ammo_box_zpspwmb2dlx.jpg)
Oh well, it seems that the dream of a Bren Ten remake died a terrible death...
I was on the D&D list for two pistols while they were developing the B10 and we know how that turned out. I do remember that they were unable to get the magazines working reliably and that might have been the final straw that sunk their ship. The one B10 I saw once at a gun show had no magazine at all & I recall that some were shipped that way with a promise to send the mags when they were working. Anyone receiving one of those guns is still waiting. So does anyone know if the magazine issue was ever resolved? If not that may be an explanation for why the companies that tried to follow up D&D never went anywhere.
My understanding is they tried to make one magazine to handle both 10mm and 45 ACP and those never were reliable.
When they made a specific magazine for just 10mm, things worked. They are marked 10mm on the side. The dual mags say nothing on them.
They had a lot of magazine troubles and there are 4 or 5 different variations.
The companies that tried to follow have learned the same things that they should have learned from D&D. Take what you think it will cost to bring a new gun to market. Multiply by 10 and double. That is the bare minimum.
The Original Brens...The lack of magazine availability was a nail in the coffin for the original models...
QuoteThe first batch of pistols was sent out to the customers with one magazine from a pre serial batch. The much needed magazines could not be available on the US market for two years because Italy prohibited their export and customs seized them as war material. Customers cancelled their orders and in 1986 Dornaus & Dixon Inc. was forced to file for bankruptcy.
If there was a company that could have made the Bren Ten, VLTOR / Abrams Airborne with their in house and resources could have made these firearms, but they gave up before it was given a chance...the consumer put a load of faith into the venture only to be left out in the cold... We were teased with all of the pictures of the various slides, barrels, frames and those beautiful bushing crowns...
(https://s20.postimg.org/v48mttryl/slides_zpshlviefqb.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/firb9vnq5/barrels_zps0mjcdn8d.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/l6xm0rzsd/fortisframes_zpsjb5vajdm.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/i032h5n25/Barrel_Bushings_zps5ihes99w.jpg)
Companies have been successful at adding the 10mm to their lineup and they have sold their guns and still companies are stepping out of their 9mm/45 comfort zone and producing a 10mm firearm, mostly 1911 variants but kudos to Sig Sauer for their big leap to put out their P220 10mm.
Glock has stepped up their platform and number of models over the years to continually produce guns chambered for the 10mm. so they deserve a big thumbs up with their efforts!
I just wish they would release the technical data pack for sale.
Allow someone who actually cares to buy it. I have said many times that by now Vltor could have provided just a basic crude drawing on a napkin with no specifications to smith and wesson or sig sauer and they could have had a fully functional item for sale years ago.
Instead they keep the bren ten in house as some kind of black sheep pet project of the owner. They must be fumbling around with the spec sheets and drawings in the dark to have as much trouble as they claim. We will be coming up on two years in January without an update. Mark my words, the next update will likely be a very close copy paste of the update nearly two years ago.
Blah blah we couldn't meet our quality standards. Blah blah, we put more resources on it.
I seriously think the only resources that they put into the project is giving the facebook people the go ahead to respond to inquiries with their standard response. Can you tell Im a little bitter? :P
We are waiting on an update from management.
Forever waiting on the update that they have made no progress since the last update...
No progress and no attempt. This is just a cz75 design. Why not just get a Tangfoglio? It's like being pissed you can't get a 1911 from Kimber but you can still get one from Dan Wesson.
Indeed it does look really similar to the Tanfoglio!
I wish Ruger had taken this project on. With their casting abilities and fininacil backing it would of been a success.
My response on a Throwback Thursday post of VLTOR
Let's go back a few more thursdays!
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14142008_1468707543143184_8755125377553053291_n.jpg?oh=02f0d2b7dfc085706731b01a3569c4ed&oe=5839C661)
Yes it was posted as a throwback reminder, I doubt VLTOR will step up and out of its comfort zone to produce the Bren Ten pistols but it would be nice to see them actually produce the Bren Ten. If there was ever a company that could make this happen VLTOR probably could...The 10mm enthusiast wanted this to come about, but those of us who know the history of the original Bren Ten and were around are getting up in age these days. So the target market base is getting older and it will need to be a great product to capture the newer younger people...
Well for what it is worth here is a response I got today on the facebook site;
QuoteVLTOR Hi Wade - we have not killed the Bren project. We just don't want to lie and say it's coming out anytime soon. We've done that before and it wasn't fair to our customers.
I'll probably be dead, dead and gone, before it sees any light of day! ???
Quote from: Dave84 on August 30 2016 02:38:46 PM MDT
No progress and no attempt. This is just a cz75 design. Why not just get a Tangfoglio? It's like being pissed you can't get a 1911 from Kimber but you can still get one from Dan Wesson.
The Witness is no Bren Ten.
For starters, the Witness, or T(A)-95, has been in continuous production for 19 years, and its parent gun another 10 years before that. It has been offered in 9X19, 9X21, 38 Super, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 ACP and 22 long rifle. Current annual production is around 90,000 units. This means Tanfoglio makes more T-95's in a week than D&D made in three years.
Magazines have always come with the gun, unlike the Bren Ten, which often shipped as a single shot. For those of you who feel gipped by the presence of the magazine, I would be glad to take your's off your hands for several months, leaving you yearning to wring out you gun, but unable to. I can't, however, fix the fact that aftermarket magazines are readily available and can be at your door next day if you pay for expedited shipping.
The best I can do on a long pre-order wait is tell you to buy online, wait the full 7 days to send your check, and have it draw on a bank in outer Mongolia. Even then you gun will likely ship within 10 days and be at your FFL in under two weeks. The Bren Ten clearly wins on "wait time", with some customers waiting up to 15 months for their gun, with non magazine.
Finally, the window is long closed to get your gun shipped before post production testing is completed. In fact, I don't think Tanfolgio ever shipped any guns in that state. The closest you could come, again, is to track down 3-4 of the "scalloped" slide models produced around 2012. Some of these guns had heat treat problems and will crack the slide. Also, the reduced slide mass made them not run as well with full power 10mm ammo. Unfortunately, at this point EAA is promptly fixing such guns under warranty, so you won't get to experience long term having a gun with zero support and no after market.
Nope, the Witness is definitely no Bren Ten.
In all seriousness though, the Witness is a very successful, still supported and well proven 10mm handgun that is a more faithful CZ clone than the Bren Ten ever was. That is why I have both a standard full size and an Elite Match in my safe. The full size was my EDC for several years.
I am grateful to D&D, Norma and the Bren Ten for giving us the 10mm Auto. I am grateful to the Delta Elite for breathing some life into the 10mm auto, and creating a platform that the FBI could use to test the 10mm Auto. And to S&W and Glock for cementing it as a lasting cartridge with the 10XX and Glock 20/29 guns.
But if you want a solid shooting, accurate, affordable steel 10mm, the EAA Witness, and especially the Elite Match, are very hard to beat.
I prefer the Elite Pro as it's DA/SA and has a 4.75" barrel which is closest to the Bren Ten. Mine is great with some upgraded Henning Parts.
SQL,we have the same two witness pistols. I have nothing bad to say about them. Just get a heavier recoil spring.
Quote from: Dave84 on September 01 2016 12:20:04 PM MDT
SQL,we have the same two witness pistols. I have nothing bad to say about them. Just get a heavier recoil spring.
I agree completely. The above was tongue in cheek. Awesome guns!
I chuckled when I visited their facebook page today.
They finally allowed someone to respond that the bren ten will not be in production for the foreseeable future and to go with the Sig if you are looking for a 10mm. :))
We all knew it, it just finally came out of the company itself.
It was likely me as I post there bugging them about the Bren Tens often! ;D
It makes you wonder though what really went wrong. Was a technical issue that they could not solve, or could not solve cheaply, or was it more of a management issue. Could it be they couldn't sell them at the price they had hoped too? It just seems like they had steam on the project and then nothing.
Wrong people or company on the project I guess. I mean it's not like the cz75 came out two weeks ago. it is a proven platform. Why even mention it if they had no intent on releasing it.
Oh Man !! I sure hope that isn't the case with the new .44 Auto Mag as I have my name it the hat for one.
Quote from: PCFlorida on September 13 2016 09:04:42 AM MDT
It makes you wonder though what really went wrong. Was a technical issue that they could not solve, or could not solve cheaply, or was it more of a management issue. Could it be they couldn't sell them at the price they had hoped too? It just seems like they had steam on the project and then nothing.
The original project executive sponsor left the company.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 13 2016 12:52:22 PM MDT
Quote from: PCFlorida on September 13 2016 09:04:42 AM MDT
It makes you wonder though what really went wrong. Was a technical issue that they could not solve, or could not solve cheaply, or was it more of a management issue. Could it be they couldn't sell them at the price they had hoped too? It just seems like they had steam on the project and then nothing.
The original project executive sponsor left the company.
And that was probably the problem. No one else had the vision or drive to make it happen.
I believe it was Eric Kincel's project. He left to go to Bravo Company USA. And in reality when he left, the project died. To bad he couldn't have taken it with him. It had nice traction up to that point.
Well that sucks! At least it's nice to have an idea about what went wrong since the company wouldn't tell the patiently waiting buyers anything.
At even an inflated price point I think they would have found eager buyers. As long as the platform worked as intended I would have no trouble paying what a nice 1911 sells at. Give me a Bren at or around 2K that works, I am buying.
Vitor teased us like a high school girlfriend and left us with blue balls. ;D
Quote from: Ethang on September 23 2016 04:21:33 PM MDT
At even an inflated price point I think they would have found eager buyers. As long as the platform worked as intended I would have no trouble paying what a nice 1911 sells at. Give me a Bren at or around 2K that works, I am buying.
Vitor teased us like a high school girlfriend and left us with blue balls. ;D
Except unlike that high school girlfriend, Vltor isn't gonna allow us relief from a third party. They have been asked about selling the project and applicable information and refused to. They wanna keep it, they just don't want to put any effort into it. That philosophy is why I haven't purchased a Vltor product and never will.
There are few companies on my never patronize list, and vltor is one of them.
Quote from: inv136 on August 24 2016 09:57:23 PM MDT
For two years I had been following the VLTOR Fortis project to reproduce a new Bren Ten. They finally got the rights to name it the Bren Ten. They even named a distributor and retailer. The all of a sudden nothing. I did a search and found a letter on their website indicating that they suspended the project because of immediate economic downturn and the need to focus on their current production items. But, there was room left for the possibility of starting up production in 2016.
I sent an e-mail inquiry to VLTOR regarding this new Bren Ten pistol and they responded in the same day. The response only indicated that they don't have any updates and that their management team was still working on the project. I have been wanting to get a Bren Ten 10mm pistol since I saw the Dornaus & Dixon ad in Shotgun News back in the 1980's. My interest was piqued again when I read about the Peregrine Falcon and the Sphinx 3000 10mm which looked like a gun I could live with instead of the Bren Ten, but, that was short lived and I missed out on the Sphinx. In the early 1990's I was able to actually handle and pulled the trigger on a Bren Ten at a gun show in Miami. The trigger was a really smooth, light double action trigger. And, the grip and ergonomics felt like holding a Browning High Power, except a little bigger. Unfortunately the price was too much.
Then I read about the VLTOR Fortis project to resurrect the Bren Ten under the Fortis name with improved CNC machining. I thought I was finally going to get a new production gun with a bunch of magazines. Now I don't know. This is one gun that I really want. But, who knows. >:(
I am into the 10mm and picked up an EEA (Tanfoglio) Witness and love it. Inexpensive and accurate.
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
I'll settle for my NHC Recon Enforcer and DW Silverback in 10mm. They're much better guns than a Tanfoglio Guardone. I handled an original D&D Bren Ten at a gun show back in the early 90's and that pistol had great ergonomics and the DA trigger was very smooth and tight. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. My 1911 10mm pistols will just have to suffice.
@%#$&$%#@*%$#@!!!! THAT TEARS IT! MORE %@$#^$%#$%*& "Vaporware"!
Another dream shattered.
Its to bad a company like magnum research didnt take the helm on this. They would have got this project done. They have no problem putting out tiger stripped gold desert eagles or rebadging jericho pistol to turn a profit, not to mention have a little bit more in the way of financial backing. Not saying magnum research would be perfect match but more so than alot of other manufacturers, cant see ruger or smith and wesson, doing anything like this.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 13 2016 12:52:22 PM MDT
Quote from: PCFlorida on September 13 2016 09:04:42 AM MDT
It makes you wonder though what really went wrong. Was a technical issue that they could not solve, or could not solve cheaply, or was it more of a management issue. Could it be they couldn't sell them at the price they had hoped too? It just seems like they had steam on the project and then nothing.
The original project executive sponsor left the company.
This. When Eric Kincel left Vltor, the driving force behind resurrecting an "improved" BT left too.
The only real issue now is: since Vltor owns the rights to the BT name and design and has decided not to go forward with completing the project, will they sell the rights to another outfit with both the engineering insight and the financial R&D muscle to complete it and get the gun on to the market? - as Sig did with their 10mm P220 series?
Yep, repeated unanswered emails to VLTOR kind of convinced me that this was not going to happen. It they finally took down their old web page saying that they were still going to build it. They have a Bren 10 link, but when I clicked on it, nothing came up. A page explaining that they were halting any plans would have been nice, they just left us hanging, instead.
I wonder how much money they actually sunk in it before they decided NAH?
They had working prototypes at the SHOT show a few years back. I understand in testing they didn't hold up well, and I think the cost of re-engineering the gun killed it.
Quote from: inv136 on October 20 2016 03:24:37 PM MDT
"....................................
"............. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. ........ vvv
Magazines would the least of your problems if you found a Bren. I've never seen a Bren for sale without a Mag since the late 80's- early 90's. Mags are out there if you really look. The problem is coughing up the $150-175 and more going rate. >:(
The critical problem that people directly linked to D&D or were close to them will tell you is, DO NOT SHOOT IT - until you have tested the slide for internal cracks by way of manga flux and X-ray. Then, if no cracks, have it heat treated/hardened and refinished before firing. I personally saw a 5 gallon bucket full of cracked slides. The gunsmith told me that he had many more buckets full as well.
Knowing this and how RARE the Bren is as well as how much they go for, why would you shoot this?
Look at it this way, there were about 9,000 Auto Mags made. The Bren book says 1200-1300 Brens were made. I have a good authority give me the actual number and it was less than 1000! That's 20-25% variance, highly significant. ??? If Auto Mags are rare, what does that make the Bren, Super Ultra rare?
Yes, I've shot a few of mine, but that was 20 years ago. Now that I have the facts and information, mine are safe queens that only get coon-fingered whenever I open that particular safe. :P
And somebody mentioned about a current Auto Mag resurrection, well this is the second attempt. Some guys out of Alaska tried to it 3-4? Years ago. :(. So I'm definitely NOT holding my breath on that cool gun either. 8)
Just my $0.02 from the saddle :)
(Not my Brens pictured)
[attachment deleted by admin]
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
Quote from: Vice on November 15 2016 10:53:54 PM MST
Quote from: inv136 on October 20 2016 03:24:37 PM MDT
"....................................
"............. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. ........ vvv
Magazines would the least of your problems if you found a Bren. I've never seen a Bren for sale without a Mag since the late 80's- early 90's. Mags are out there if you really look. The problem is coughing up the $150-175 and more going rate. >:(
The critical problem that people directly linked to D&D or were close to them will tell you is, DO NOT SHOOT IT - until you have tested the slide for internal cracks by way of manga flux and X-ray. Then, if no cracks, have it heat treated/hardened and refinished before firing. I personally saw a 5 gallon bucket full of cracked slides. The gunsmith told me that he had many more buckets full as well.
Knowing this and how RARE the Bren is as well as how much they go for, why would you shoot this?
Look at it this way, there were about 9,000 Auto Mags made. The Bren book says 1200-1300 Brens were made. I have a good authority give me the actual number and it was less than 1000! That's 20-25% variance, highly significant. ??? If Auto Mags are rare, what does that make the Bren, Super Ultra rare?
Yes, I've shot a few of mine, but that was 20 years ago. Now that I have the facts and information, mine are safe queens that only get coon-fingered whenever I open that particular safe. :P
And somebody mentioned about a current Auto Mag resurrection, well this is the second attempt. Some guys out of Alaska tried to it 3-4? Years ago. :(. So I'm definitely NOT holding my breath on that cool gun either. 8)
Just my $0.02 from the saddle :)
(Not my Brens pictured)
You must have misread my post which you quoted above. I stated that I want that new VLTOR made Bren Ten. They updated the original Bren Ten's weaknesses such as replacing castings with CNC machined parts. This new VLTOR Bren Ten was to be an updated, improved version of the original. If I had been lucky enough to have purchased one of the original Bren Tens directly from Dornaus & Dixon (which I was prepared to do when they first posted ads on Shotgun News) I would not be shooting it very much in order to preserve it. For that reason I have never desired to purchased one of the original, old, Bren Ten models. I was going to be purchasing one of the new, VLTOR Bren Ten's if they hadn't of terminated the project.
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
That's incorrect. I was monitoring the VLTOR Fortis website's updates as the project that started from the VLTOR Fortis and morphed into the VLTOR Bren Ten. Their updates indicated that they had finally purchased or obtained the rights to use the name Bren Ten. They never gave a reason for why the project was terminated. They provided a list of retailers and started preparing interested buyers to expect notice of availability. The they just stopped giving updates and no notice of the termination of the project. I contacted them recently and they indicated that they are not interested in pursuing the project at this time. I heard that the person that was behind the Bren Ten project left VLTOR and the rest of VLTOR's management is not interested in the Bren Ten.
When the Fortis (Bren Ten) was looked at by VLTOR they ran it through modeling software that highlighted areas of interest or stress...This is what was deemed as improvements to the design...The Shadow Knows and in this case shows! ::)
QuoteFortis Weblog
March 1st, 2008
The Antithesis of Chaos...
The antithesis of Chaos is generally held to be "Cosmos" — and in our case, Cosmos is the new Finite Element Analysis program that we are using to test the Fortis. Vltor Weapons Systems has brought on some new folks to help out with the Fortis Project, and the investment is paying off well!
As previously stated, we have made some internal changes, in order to make the Fortis more reliable, stronger and safer than the original pistol — currently there are a few computer models that are undergoing repeated testing in computer simulation. The Finite Element Analysis testing allows us to look at areas of potential concern... and we are proud to say is showing us that the changes we have made are indeed improvements.
We are working to make the final refinements to the designs, and we are quite confident that when we move to "hard steel" prototype testing, that real range time will validate the time and cost we have invested in the extensive computer modeling and simulations.
As always... we will keep you posted as things move along — thanks for reading and check back soon
The Frame
(https://s20.postimg.org/4gqtp1dul/FEA_Receiver_1_zps1qgkvt5c.jpg)
The Slide
(https://s20.postimg.org/68jsjy4x9/FEA_Slide_1_zpsej3hkwlm.jpg)
QuoteThese two screen captures are from the preliminary Finite Element (FEA) studies that have been performed on the slide and receiver components of the Fortis pistol. The colored areas illustrate the distribution of stresses within the components due to impact loading during recoil. The slide and receiver were assembled together and the tests simulated a 'fixed' firing event in which there was no recoil allowed. This imparts the maximum impact energy on the components, and quickly reveals areas of concern. These studies have been used to ensure the safety of the pistol under rigorous use, as well as help to determine the causation behind the failures of the original slides and frames. The data collected has been extremely revealing, showing stress risers in places one might not expect at first glance. Extensive measures have been taken to ensure a reliable, durable weapon system.
The 10mm Auto round is indeed a tenacious beast, though by designing the system to the full-house specs of the 10mm the Fortis will thrive where other weapons fail.
Note that these are not representative of final geometry, or performance. The analysis process can be lengthy when investigating such a complex system of components, and these captures are simple illustrations taken from the very first passes made for simulation validation.
Quote from: inv136 on November 16 2016 08:00:03 PM MST
Quote from: Vice on November 15 2016 10:53:54 PM MST
Quote from: inv136 on October 20 2016 03:24:37 PM MDT
"....................................
"............. I'm not interested in an original Bren Ten (because of the lack of magazines), but, that new VLTOR Bren Ten would have been a must have pistol. ........ vvv
Magazines would the least of your problems if you found a Bren. I've never seen a Bren for sale without a Mag since the late 80's- early 90's. Mags are out there if you really look. The problem is coughing up the $150-175 and more going rate. >:(
The critical problem that people directly linked to D&D or were close to them will tell you is, DO NOT SHOOT IT - until you have tested the slide for internal cracks by way of manga flux and X-ray. Then, if no cracks, have it heat treated/hardened and refinished before firing. I personally saw a 5 gallon bucket full of cracked slides. The gunsmith told me that he had many more buckets full as well.
Knowing this and how RARE the Bren is as well as how much they go for, why would you shoot this?
Look at it this way, there were about 9,000 Auto Mags made. The Bren book says 1200-1300 Brens were made. I have a good authority give me the actual number and it was less than 1000! That's 20-25% variance, highly significant. ??? If Auto Mags are rare, what does that make the Bren, Super Ultra rare?
Yes, I've shot a few of mine, but that was 20 years ago. Now that I have the facts and information, mine are safe queens that only get coon-fingered whenever I open that particular safe. :P
And somebody mentioned about a current Auto Mag resurrection, well this is the second attempt. Some guys out of Alaska tried to it 3-4? Years ago. :(. So I'm definitely NOT holding my breath on that cool gun either. 8)
Just my $0.02 from the saddle :)
(Not my Brens pictured)
You must have misread my post which you quoted above. I stated that I want that new VLTOR made Bren Ten. They updated the original Bren Ten's weaknesses such as replacing castings with CNC machined parts. This new VLTOR Bren Ten was to be an updated, improved version of the original. If I had been lucky enough to have purchased one of the original Bren Tens directly from Dornaus & Dixon (which I was prepared to do when they first posted ads on Shotgun News) I would not be shooting it very much in order to preserve it. For that reason I have never desired to purchased one of the original, old, Bren Ten models. I was going to be purchasing one of the new, VLTOR Bren Ten's if they hadn't of terminated the project.
Sorry about that inv136! :)
S
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 16 2016 08:27:22 PM MST
When the Fortis (Bren Ten) was looked at by VLTOR they ran it through modeling software that highlighted areas of interest or stress...This is what was deemed as improvements to the design...The Shadow Knows and in this case shows! ::)
QuoteFortis Weblog
March 1st, 2008
The Antithesis of Chaos...
The antithesis of Chaos is generally held to be "Cosmos" — and in our case, Cosmos is the new Finite Element Analysis program that we are using to test the Fortis. Vltor Weapons Systems has brought on some new folks to help out with the Fortis Project, and the investment is paying off well!
As previously stated, we have made some internal changes, in order to make the Fortis more reliable, stronger and safer than the original pistol — currently there are a few computer models that are undergoing repeated testing in computer simulation. The Finite Element Analysis testing allows us to look at areas of potential concern... and we are proud to say is showing us that the changes we have made are indeed improvements.
We are working to make the final refinements to the designs, and we are quite confident that when we move to "hard steel" prototype testing, that real range time will validate the time and cost we have invested in the extensive computer modeling and simulations.
As always... we will keep you posted as things move along — thanks for reading and check back soon
The Frame
(https://s20.postimg.org/4gqtp1dul/FEA_Receiver_1_zps1qgkvt5c.jpg)
The Slide
(https://s20.postimg.org/68jsjy4x9/FEA_Slide_1_zpsej3hkwlm.jpg)
QuoteThese two screen captures are from the preliminary Finite Element (FEA) studies that have been performed on the slide and receiver components of the Fortis pistol. The colored areas illustrate the distribution of stresses within the components due to impact loading during recoil. The slide and receiver were assembled together and the tests simulated a 'fixed' firing event in which there was no recoil allowed. This imparts the maximum impact energy on the components, and quickly reveals areas of concern. These studies have been used to ensure the safety of the pistol under rigorous use, as well as help to determine the causation behind the failures of the original slides and frames. The data collected has been extremely revealing, showing stress risers in places one might not expect at first glance. Extensive measures have been taken to ensure a reliable, durable weapon system.
The 10mm Auto round is indeed a tenacious beast, though by designing the system to the full-house specs of the 10mm the Fortis will thrive where other weapons fail.
Note that these are not representative of final geometry, or performance. The analysis process can be lengthy when investigating such a complex system of components, and these captures are simple illustrations taken from the very first passes made for simulation validation.
This is why I was really looking forward to buying the Fortis. To actually have a Bren Ten shooter! :P
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
If you read the book "Bren Ten - The Heir Apparent" by Ron Carrillo, Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with the Company.
In an interview with Cooper and his Wife, they tell Carrillo that they had no money in the Company. Actually Cooper says he never ever had much money.
He let them use the Raven insignia to both promote the Bren and Cooper's interests.
The rights to the Bren Ten trademarks went from VLTOR-> Peregrine Industries ->(?) VLTOR. VLTOR now holds them, and this is not a stumbling block to the project.
This does sound familiar. I recall reading about the upcoming Peregrine Falcon project that never materialized. I was pretty excited when I first read about the Peregrine Falcon and like Dornaus & Dixon was let down again. Why is it that no company seems to be able to get the Bren Ten into production? There are plenty of 1911 pistols in 10mm (I have three), but, the ergonomics of the Bren Ten just feel special. I handled one original Bren Ten at a gun show back in the 1990's and was sold (but not at the $3,000 price tag with only one magazine).
Quote from: BEEMER! on November 21 2016 01:35:46 PM MST
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
If you read the book "Bren Ten - The Heir Apparent" by Ron Carrillo, Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with the Company.
In an interview with Cooper and his Wife, they tell Carrillo that they had no money in the Company. Actually Cooper says he never ever had much money.
He let them use the Raven insignia to both promote the Bren and Cooper's interests.
Yes, Ron Carrillo's book was enlightening. Lt Col. Cooper was just a consultant on what the ammo should be, the elements that were to be included in the design that he felt necessary.
The Peregrine Falcon was set into motion March of 1991, for the 10mm Phoenix. By April 15 1991, they expressed changes to internals were to be done before the pistols shipped late fourth quarter. That set the brakes on its forward momentum.
December of 1991 they put out a letter stating that they need to change vendors for a major component, thus shipping would be delayed yet again to second quarter of 1992.
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 21 2016 09:19:12 PM MST
Quote from: BEEMER! on November 21 2016 01:35:46 PM MST
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
If you read the book "Bren Ten - The Heir Apparent" by Ron Carrillo, Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with the Company.
In an interview with Cooper and his Wife, they tell Carrillo that they had no money in the Company. Actually Cooper says he never ever had much money.
He let them use the Raven insignia to both promote the Bren and Cooper's interests.
Yes, Ron Carrillo's book was enlightening. Lt Col. Cooper was just a consultant on what the ammo should be, the elements that were to be included in the design that he felt necessary.
In Carrillo's book Cooper and his Wife state that Dornaus and Dixon showed up on their doorstep asking Cooper for help with design and promotion.
Cooper stated he made one trip to California to the D&D shop just to make sure that they were set up to do it. He was convinced at least they had what they needed 'shop-wise' to manufacture pistols.
Quote from: inv136 on November 16 2016 08:05:12 PM MST
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
That's incorrect. I was monitoring the VLTOR Fortis website's updates as the project that started from the VLTOR Fortis and morphed into the VLTOR Bren Ten. Their updates indicated that they had finally purchased or obtained the rights to use the name Bren Ten. They never gave a reason for why the project was terminated. They provided a list of retailers and started preparing interested buyers to expect notice of availability. The they just stopped giving updates and no notice of the termination of the project. I contacted them recently and they indicated that they are not interested in pursuing the project at this time. I heard that the person that was behind the Bren Ten project left VLTOR and the rest of VLTOR's management is not interested in the Bren Ten.
But this was why as I posted before it would have been nice if the website had posted that they were no longer interested in producing it. It sure would have been nice if they had let US know about that decision instead of just leaving us hanging for over two years. Like I said, their website STILL has a Bren Ten Icon, but it doesn't do anything when you click on it.
Quote from: gandog56 on November 22 2016 08:46:33 AM MST
Quote from: inv136 on November 16 2016 08:05:12 PM MST
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
That's incorrect. I was monitoring the VLTOR Fortis website's updates as the project that started from the VLTOR Fortis and morphed into the VLTOR Bren Ten. Their updates indicated that they had finally purchased or obtained the rights to use the name Bren Ten. They never gave a reason for why the project was terminated. They provided a list of retailers and started preparing interested buyers to expect notice of availability. The they just stopped giving updates and no notice of the termination of the project. I contacted them recently and they indicated that they are not interested in pursuing the project at this time. I heard that the person that was behind the Bren Ten project left VLTOR and the rest of VLTOR's management is not interested in the Bren Ten.
But this was why as I posted before it would have been nice if the website had posted that they were no longer interested in producing it. It sure would have been nice if they had let US now about that decision instead of just leaving us hanging for over two years. Like I said, their website STILL has a Bren Ten Icon, but it doesn't do anything when you click on it.
They might be trying to sell the name and also what work and tooling that they have put into the project to an interested buyer.
The Auto Mag is being resurrected as is the Wildey. Both of those new companies are within 60 days it sounds like of turning out product.
In my opinion the "New Bren Ten" would be much more likely to be successful than either of those two firearms. The projected cost of the "New Auto Mags" is $3500 and the "New Wildey's" is $2900. It has to be a very limited market for either of them.
Quote from: BEEMER! on November 22 2016 10:20:40 AM MST
Quote from: gandog56 on November 22 2016 08:46:33 AM MST
Quote from: inv136 on November 16 2016 08:05:12 PM MST
Quote from: jessie james 58 on November 16 2016 05:27:53 PM MST
It is my understanding that the big problem with comming out with the new Bren Ten is the family of Jeff Cooper would not sign his rights for the Bren over to Valor. Jeff Cooper
That's incorrect. I was monitoring the VLTOR Fortis website's updates as the project that started from the VLTOR Fortis and morphed into the VLTOR Bren Ten. Their updates indicated that they had finally purchased or obtained the rights to use the name Bren Ten. They never gave a reason for why the project was terminated. They provided a list of retailers and started preparing interested buyers to expect notice of availability. The they just stopped giving updates and no notice of the termination of the project. I contacted them recently and they indicated that they are not interested in pursuing the project at this time. I heard that the person that was behind the Bren Ten project left VLTOR and the rest of VLTOR's management is not interested in the Bren Ten.
But this was why as I posted before it would have been nice if the website had posted that they were no longer interested in producing it. It sure would have been nice if they had let US now about that decision instead of just leaving us hanging for over two years. Like I said, their website STILL has a Bren Ten Icon, but it doesn't do anything when you click on it.
They might be trying to sell the name and also what work and tooling that they have put into the project to an interested buyer.
The Auto Mag is being resurrected as is the Wildey. Both of those new companies are within 60 days it sounds like of turning out product.
In my opinion the "New Bren Ten" would be much more likely to be successful than either of those two firearms. The projected cost of the "New Auto Mags" is $3500 and the "New Wildey's" is $2900. It has to be a very limited market for either of them.
If so I hope Ruger buys the rights. They have the resources to build the pistol correctly.
Ruger certainly could do it and do it right, but I can see one problem.
By the time their Engineers would get done 'tweaking' it , you probably would not recognize it as a Bren.
I offered to buy the rights on the trade name and get this done some 4 years ago. Was declined by the owner with the promise that they will follow through.
What-ever.
This thing is dead in the water since a long time.
Well VLTOR's reincarnation may in fact be dead! But there is a fellow on Face Book Chuck Warner who is steadily working on producing a clone of the Bren Ten guns...Last communications I had with him the had all the CAD work done and testing a plastic model mock up!
QuoteWe are printing 3D models now. How bout an all plastic gun? Lol.
Baby steps....
(https://s20.postimg.org/bjyp4olv1/19748682_10209866212512177_8137292039927403966_n.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/lh9pxvynh/BT_3_D_Model_printed.jpg)
I hope so. I bet Ruger casted the frames for Viltor, but who owns the mold? If Ruger owns the mold I bet they could sell frames and parts to whoever they wanted and they could call it something else besides the Bren Ten.
And they could ship it with dragon-skin holsters, carried door-to-door by centaurs.
I really... genuinely... desperately wish someone would actually follow through on the Bren Ten resurrection.
But, then, I remember wishing genuinely, desperately for a Ferrari in high school... I've still got my pickup truck.