I've tested several 10mm loads in homemade ballistic gelatin. While my gelatin is not 250A bloom photographer's gelatin, it is still actual gelatin, not synthetic material and it is calibrated with a .177 cal BB @600 fps +/- 10 fps. I also have compared the performance of well documented loads such as factory Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W and Prvi Partisan 75 gr BTHP. The results are almost identical (within expected statistical variation) to the published results so I feel confident that these results, while not scientific, are at least indicative of the general performance ability of the loads tested and should be within a few inches of what a professional lab might get.
Chopinbloc?
So many screen names :D
I would just keep all videos right here and they can sticky it. I sent you a ton of work and look forward to the BCSP's!
LOL. I'm active on a few forums. That ammo will definitely keep me busy for a while. Thanks again.
Should be able to test the Corbon 180 gr bonded core soft point on Saturday if all goes well. Might even be able to squeeze in a 200 gr XTP retest.
Any clue what bullet that Razorback is or the Precision Cartridge?
I'm about 99% sure that the Razorback is a Montana Gold bullet. Here's a pic of the Razorback (right) next to a Buffalo Bore (left). Both use Starline brass but the Razorback is nickel plated. I'm interested to see what it does in gel but I predict it fragment at least as much as the 180 gr BB/MT Gold and penetrate right at about the 12" mark.
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2079/dsc04108u.jpg)
You sent me two loads from Precision. One is definitely a Golden saber. I really have no idea what the other Precision bullet is.
Good picture! Okay that is a Montana Gold like BB but it's so much more Gold ;D
The two Precisions are different Companies. The Golden Saber is a 180gr from Precision Cartridge. When you mentioned GS that's what I thought it was. The other is a 180gr from Precision One Ammo 180gr which I think is a Zero. This is good because to the best of my knowledge the 10mm GS has never been tested in Gel. I think the same is true for the Zero bullets which are very similar to an XTP.
Yup. That's what finger oils do to unprotected metal in a couple months.
I'm pretty interested in the GS, too. Frankly, I'm interested in everything. As a poster on another forum says: "Shooting stuff is fun."
Well Crapsicles. Chopinbloc said the BCSP's from Cor-Bon passed through 28" of Gel. The 220's will need a mile :o
His Chronograph readings out of a 4.5" barrel Witness:
Shot #1: 1,228 fps
Shot #2: 1,198 fps
Shot #3: 1,212 fps
Shot #4: 1,194 fps
My previous test: 10mm Corbon 180gr BCSP 1300 FPS (Match 4.75") 1202, 1188, 1192. Average = 1194 FPS/ 569.68 LBS
That was fast. I was coming here to post the link. ;D
You and I got close on the Chrony. Oddly Cor-Bon's 1300 FPS rating out of a G20 4.6" barrel is BS and they don't care. This is the third confirmed low performance at $40/20 :o It's a unique to the 10mm bullet for hunting but unless it does something different hitting a bone just load up on TMJ/FMJ and go! Way too much for a HD round!
Double Tap and Buffalo Bore are also putting out ammo that is below claims. I suspect that what happens is they load badass, hot ammo for a while, then some retard(s) blows their gun up and complains and they start toning down the loads but don't bother to change the printing on the box. DT and BB both *used* to make ammo that met the claim. It might be the same story with CORBON.
Frankly, I'm not a big fan of them anyway. They are the same company as Glaser and all their products just seem a little gimmicky. I do want to load up some of those Winchester soft points you told me about. The jacket is scored as though Winchester expects the bullet to expand somewhat. Maybe they used softer lead.
http://www.rrarms.com/winchester-jacketed-soft-hollow-point-jsp-jhp-40-10mm-400-180-gr-jhp-notched.html (http://www.rrarms.com/winchester-jacketed-soft-hollow-point-jsp-jhp-40-10mm-400-180-gr-jhp-notched.html)
Good you have denim. This is what I got from Atomic:
Make certain to have the people doing the Gel testing place 4 layers of cotton denim over the Gel block. Testing bare gel is a poor test for expansion and penetration and many bullets, at least in other calibers fail to expand reliably after 4 layers of denim. This time of year many people across the country have on a few layers or a couple of thick layers.
Roger that. Four layers of denim is an IWBA protocol and there are a lot of bullets that don't do too well through it. Newer designs handle thick clothing much better. Obviously it wouldn't have made any difference with a soft point but I think it's a good idea to maintain consistency as much as I can.
I'm sending the BCSP's back. They said their latest data showed 1275 FPS in testing.
Good luck. Most companies won't accept returns on ammo.
They are sending UPS for a pick-up. Kevin does and has and I sent some exploding Golden Bullets back to Remington. Cor-Bon said they stand behind their products 100%.
Awesome. That's good to hear.
You'll have to wait until I melt the blocks for the full results but here are some preliminary numbers:
200 gr XTP over 8.3 gr 800-X
1,133 fps 17"
1,151 fps 22"
Both had moderate expansion, even through the denim.
Underwood 155gr Gold dot
1,449 fps 10.25"
1,459 fps 10.25"
1,436 fps 9.75"
All three had extreme expansion. They are still in the block, of course, but they appear to be about 1" at their widest.
BB calibration was 597.7 fps, 3.25" and 592.6 fps, 3.25"
I'm not happy with the wide difference in penetration with the XTP but it's a much better result than no expansion. I also shot some 200 gr XTP with AA#9, but not into gelatin. At 12.6 gr I got an average of 1,161. I'm going to keep playing with 200 gr XTP loads and I'll do another 200 gr XTP test down the road. Another 10mm shooter seems confident I can get over 1,200 safely with 800-X so we'll see how that goes.
I wonder what PBR is using? Guess we will see soon enough!
Yea those 155's aren't the current loading but still respectable. I know they would do a ton of damage!
What kind of penetration are you getting with the XTP's?
Hornady 200XTP, with 9.0 grains of IMR800X you should see right at 1200-1220 fps, 9.4grains will be at the 1240-1260fps depending on your setup. Some people start to see smiles at the 9.4 grain loading with LongShot which runs 1240 fps also.
This is where these get touchy for some guns with loose chambers and case heads expand to fill the glock chambers. Work with care if trying these levels...With this bullet I like the 800X loading better than the LongShot. ;D
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 18 2012 05:45:54 PM MST
What kind of penetration are you getting with the XTP's?
Which ones?
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 18 2012 05:52:26 PM MST
Hornady 200XTP, with 9.0 grains of IMR800X you should see right at 1200-1220 fps, 9.4grains will be at the 1240-1260fps depending on your setup. Some people start to see smiles at the 9.4 grain loading with LongShot which runs 1240 fps also.
This is where these get touchy for some guns with loose chambers and case heads expand to fill the glock chambers. Work with care if trying these levels...With this bullet I like the 800X loading better than the LongShot. ;D
Sounds good. I guess I'll keep working up, but I'll probably stop short of 9.4 if some people see issues there. It will be interesting to see what that bullet does in gelatin at 1,200 fps.
Quote from: Raggedyman on November 18 2012 07:38:46 PM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 18 2012 05:45:54 PM MST
What kind of penetration are you getting with the XTP's?
Which ones?
I was thinking the 200 grainers. But I would like to hear any and all information you are willing to give on the respective loads / bullet weights in XTP.
Did you ever test the 155 grain?
Yessir. Impact velocities and penetration depths are listed above for 200 gr XTP and 155 gr GD. I should have pics, video, and complete results up in a couple hours.
All the relevant data is in the description for each video. To read it, click the "Watch on YouTube" link.
It will be interesting to see what we get out of all of the different rounds. I know the 155's in my wax test looked devastating what it did to that wax block! I would have no problem using these for HD!
I too really like what the UW 10mm 155gr Gold Dots are doing!
Tested Hornady 165 gr Critical Defense and Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber today. I'll probably post the pics and video as well as bullet measurements tomorrow if I get a chance to melt the blocks down but here are the numbers from today's test:
BB calibration: 599.3 fps, 3.6"
10mm Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr
Velocity, penetration
1,135 fps, 12.6"
1,148 fps, 12.2"
1,148 fps, 12.8"
1,144 fps, 12.7"
BB calibration: 594.0 fps, 3.75"
Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber:
Velocity, penetration
1,161 fps, 13.8"
1,150 fps, (this one actually angled up a bit and left one block, then left a small mark where it hit the second block and I couldn't find it)
1,162 fps, 13.8"
1,139 fps, 13.7"
I'm going to add them to the master sheet. So far it looks pretty good what we are seeing. I still can't believe we get people making comments about 10mm over-penetrating!
I think that is mainly due to the fact that most folks have no clue how modern bullets work or how velocity effects expansion and penetration. Sure, a 220 gr hard cast from a 10mm will go stupid deep. Of course, a 230 gr FMJ from a .45 will get pretty deep, too.
The GS bullets look like at least one of them turned face down in the Gel.
Neither of these looked up to speed, so it will be interesting to see some of the ones that are!
Yup, they both came to a rest not facing fully forward. Definitely weak sauce for 10mm but I'd say either of these are perfectly adequate for defense.
Yep,155's did their job.
Which 155's?
Sorry Intercooler.That was supposed to be under "RELOADING 10mm AMMO"catagory response.My bad.
Good stuff. I still like the UW 155gr GD load best of what you've tested so far.
I got 1365 and 1301. We are similar for the extra barrel length on the Match. Don't know why I got so much more on the PBR. What spring is in your Match?
My Witness is the standard model polymer frame but I have the 22# spring.
Thanks Raggedyman! And still, so far I like the UW 155gr Gold Dot load best.
Any videos spooling up? Maybe Atomic and Big Ted?
I'd like to get out tomorrow if I can.
Okay, change of plans, I'm going tomorrow, for sure, kinda, I think.
If it's okay, I think I'd like to change up the pace and fire one shot each of several rounds into the block so I can knock out a few more. I haven't noticed a huge variation from shot to shot with most loads so I think the results will still be fairly relevant. What do you think?
Yea man. Knock some out ;D
You can always go back and retest which is what I do for velocity.
Okay, I'll give it a "shot." ;^)
I've got a 5.56mm test planned for tomorrow, too so I'll only have the one block but I still ought to be able to get at least three shots into it.
Switch the settings to HD for a better picture.
I love his videos. Don't know how I missed that one. Our velocity figures are similar but penetration is way off. He got roughly 13.5" and I got 10.25", 10.25", and 9.75".
That's a pretty substantial difference. It also splits the 12" mark. My results make the cartridge appear unsuitable for defense and his results make it seem perfectly adequate. Which is to be believed?
It wasn't the best of shot since it almost exited out of the block. I know my test in wax it was brutal! I wouldn't want to get hit by it :o
Help me out here guys.
I want to buy some Barnes for Chopinbloc to test. In the 155's the Buffalo Bore is stronger and DoubleTap has a 125gr that has more oomph than both 155's.
It doesn't look like Kevin is ready yet so which one?
Did you put a couple through?
Yessir.
I also tested 200 gr HAP over 8.3 gr of 800-X at 1,153 fps but I didn't get any video of it. Here are the numbers and pics, though:
Penetration: 19.4"
Weight retention: 198.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.623"
Min expansion: 0.442"
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4191/img0351dg.jpg)
(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9083/img0376ef.jpg)
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3336/img0378vj.jpg)
I liked what I saw from the 150gr JHP Corbon load. Any idea what velocity it did from your gun?
He has 1312 FPS in the comments. My average was 1280 FPS so he did a little better than me (it's in the fudge factor).
The Precision One Ammo 180gr did 1100 FPS out of my Match so it was a little higher here too. Looks like a pretty good speed for that 180gr Zero bullet. The PBR is faster with the same bullet... let's see what it does.
What's left:
PPU Partizan 180gr - Did I miss this one?
Underwood 220gr HC - Different test for these long reachers!
Hornady 165gr Critical Defense - Done
Cor-Bon 180gr BCSP - Done
MAC Ammo 165gr Razorback - Done
Parabellum Ammo 165gr Zero - Done
Underwood 155gr GD - Done
Precision One Ammo 180gr - Done
Cor-Bon 150gr JHP - Done
Precision Cartridge 180gr - Done
Anyone have a couple of all Coppers they could send?
I thought I sent Big Ted but guess not. Did I miss Atomic too? Let me sort through what I have and if you have a .357 I would like to send a couple of those.
I'm going through the videos and putting all the pen/exp/ret data. The Underwood 155 video didn't have any data in the video or comments although I read 10" in your responses. What was the expansion and retained weight? They look like the most bad-ass so far!
I missed the velocity on the Precision One load. I copy/paste descriptions from older videos and just change the data but somehow I left the data in the description on that one. Derp. It's fixed now. I'll update it with your result so people at least have an idea of the neighborhood it's in.
I do have a .357 and I've been wanting to do some .38/.357 tests. Especially the 158 gr JSP. I also want to gas up the 200 gr HAP and XTP to see what I can get.
Here's the Underwood stuff from the video description:
10mm Underwood 155 gr Gold Dot. Average velocity was 1,448 fps. Fired from EAA Witness 4.5" barrel through 4 layers of denim.
BB calibration: 592.6 fps, 3.25"
Impact velocities with penetration depths:
1,449 fps, 10.25"
1,459 fps, 10.25"
1,436 fps, 9.75"
Maximum/minimum expansion and retained weight measurements follow but I can't tell you which bullet is associated with which shot.
0.970", 0.548", 154.5 gr
0.944", 0.567", 153.5 gr
0.951", 0.569", 155.3 gr
I have them all in. PPU will be interesting.
What else looks like a good candidate?
Can you give me a link?
Frankly, I think the PPU might make a decent self defense load if the bullet performs consistently. I think I'll be using a 165 or 180 gr Gold Dot at very moderate velocity for my personal defense load and either the 200 gr HAP or XTP for woods defense. I don't believe that the extra power that 10mm produces is really all that useful for defense against humans because it isn't powerful enough to produce a TSC that can significantly effect wounding. The extra recoil just slows down your shooting. I think the FBI had the right idea with their FBI lite load. What's attractive to me, though, is that I can carry one handgun that is useful for both personal defense and large animal defense by just switching mags. I look forward to seeing how the PPU does... if it doesn't blow up my gun. :o
No worries. I only heard the one incident and it was a Glock which is hard to tell.
What is HAP? Are you buying all Copper bullets to load up?
HAP = Hornady Action Pistol, which is very similar to an XTP but without scoring. It's not designed for expansion, but for competition. If my last test can be believed, it looks like it may be able to expand, especially if I drive it even faster. I'm going to push the XTP and the HAP a little faster and see if I can get up in the neighborhood of Kevin's loads. I'll be happy if I can reliably get 17" or more penetration combined with some expansion.
Did you post the data into a spreadsheet?
Quote from: Intercooler on December 24 2012 11:25:13 AM MST
No worries. I only heard the one incident and it was a Glock which is hard to tell.
What is HAP? Are you buying all Copper bullets to load up?
HAP (Hornady Action Pistol) bullets are the same as XTP, without the skives (precut/sectioned tip). They expand very well at high velocity in tissue, but much less consistent than the XTP, or a bullet designed for controlled expansion.
I see them now. Like a Nosler in construction.
Last column on every sheet.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=5
Awesome. Thanks. Can you add the data from the other ones I've tested?
Everything in the videos was added.
There are tests of loads that aren't on that list. For excample, the MAC Razorback.
Its on the other tabs at the bottom in the 165 section.
Duh. I didn't even notice the tabs for weight. Thanks a bunch. That was a lot of work. I hope you don't mind if I re post this. Will the same link point to the updated version if you add more data to the spreadsheet?
One correction: the expansion figure on the BCSP should read 0.40", not 0. Again, great work. How can I make the columns wider?
Yea it will update when it's added to. You can save a copy and widen them or let me know which ones and I can try.
Any plans to do the PPU? I will change the BCSP info now.
Not a big deal. I know what the columns are. I'm just not real familiar with Google docs.
Yeah, I think I'll do the PPU on the next test. I don't have much left to do. I'm gonna up the powder charge on the 200 gr XTP and HAP to see what I can get out of it and I do want to get around to the 220 gr hard cast eventually. I think what I'm going to do is mix up a bit more gelatin, cast into the old tubs I used before, cut off the edges straight, wrap in Saran wrap, recast the excess, etc. I should end up with several feet of gelatin. I just hope the path stays straight enough. Any bets on how far it's gonna go?
Nice. Thanks for the heads up. Looks like the Underwood is about 100 fps faster than the hand load I tested and it penetrated just a bit less, which is exactly what I would expect.
New 10mm tests (other tests posted on my channel, too):
Thanks for the tests. How much penetration did you get for these two?
It's in text format in the about section.
Where??
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/580654_483495981688439_1264520187_n.jpg)
Make sure you are in the tab circled in red. Then hit "show more" and the text is in there.
Okay thanks.
I seem to get this question a lot. Let me see if I can append the info to the videos. In the future, I guess I'll have to add it to the video itself. Who reads descriptions?
Have you tested Nosler 135 gr and 150 gr HP's? I can send you some Nosler 135 gr and 150 gr HP's and load data if you want.
Sean
Not yet. I'd love to test them but I can't make any guarantees on time frame. It's hard for me to get out to the range this time of year.
Their are a few videos on YouTube of the 135's already. Not real deep and some fragment.
Yup. So far it looks like 165 gr is the minimum weight for a 10mm JHP to reach 12". The 155 and 150 gr bullets didn't go very deep at all.
Did you try 155 grain XTP? I think the Hornady load runs about 1270. The Underwood at 1500 may cause it to penetrate less.
No sir, I haven't. Intercooler put together a great spreadsheet which shows collected data from my tests, his tests, and others.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=8&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=8&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250)
10mm hand load fired from EAA Witness through four layers of denim. 155 gr Barnes TAC-XP over 8.0 gr of 800-X, new Starline brass, Winchester LP primer. Data is noted in the video and in video description.
Not too bad. I still like the 155gr Gold Dot best from what you tested.
Video:
10mm Underwood 135 gr Nosler JHP fired from EAA Witness 4.5" barrel through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB calibration: 591.4 fps, 3.3"
Impact velocity: 1,568 fps
Penetration: 7.9"
Retained weight: 80.4 gr
Max expansion: 0.745"
Min expansion: 0.529"
The gel went total airborne,ouch.
Good one, thank for posting it.
Good video. I am still up in the air about super light bullets in 10mm. I know lots of guys really like them, and there are some impressive videos of them. I even have some at home. But I still, deep down, just better trust a 200 grain that will go 15" +.
I concur. Penetration is king in handgun bullets and it doesn't matter how brutal the tissue disruption is if it doesn't drive deeply enough to do it to vital organs and major blood vessels.
165 and 180 grain JHPs do well in 10mm too, though. I'd reserve the 200+ gr bullets for large animal defense.
What ones have gone 15" plus?
Underwood 220 gr HC
PPU 180 gr JHP
Black Talon 200 gr
Handloaded 200 gr XTP @ 1,133 fps
Corbon 180 gr BCSP
Of those which ones failed to expand?
The Underwood HC (obviously), The PPU, and the Corbon.
That leaves only the XTP and the Black Talon for expanding bullets offering >15" of penetration from what I've tested so far. The Black Talon is, of course, no longer available. Does anyone know if there is a Ranger T .400" 200 gr bullet available as a component? That's the same bullet as the Black Talon but without the black coating. I'd also like to test the Nosler 200 gr when I get a chance.
I have not seen the Ranger T's offered as component items...more people would probably use them if they did.
How about a .400 A-frame bullet? Such an animal?
I dont' think any of the bullets are having issues with core separation, so I don't see where an a-frame buys you much. The A-frame solves the issue of long, high velocity rifle bullets that lacked penetration due to core separation.
Some food to chew on with definitions of all the bullets:
http://www.littlestonesrus.com/The-Bullets_ep_47.html
My thought was just that it may be available in a heavy weight and drive deeper since it's being used for Magnum rounds at Magnum speeds. I sent Chopinbloc a couple of A-frames for .357 and .44. Let's see what the gel says!
In a 10mm gel test neither of those bullets is going to do well. I expect poor crimp on a .357" diameter bullet in a 10mm case, and if you manage to seat a .429" bullet, it won't ever chamber. :P
Anyone make a .400?
Not that I know of. You probably could run their 210 grain .410" bullet through a Lee push through bullet sizing die and get a .401" 210 grain.
But again, we aren't seeing core separations. Bonded cores, partitions, etc achieve better penetration in cartridges where cores were leaving the jacket. We don't have that issue, so it is an answer to a problem we don't have, and won't work any better than non-bonded bullets.
Do you believe they might result in more moderate expansion?
Any plans for a round or two this weekend? If you don't mind can you do the PBR 180 and 200 XTP next?
Probably Monday. Will do.
How did it go?
Got delayed. Going today.
Cool!
When things free up and things start to roll I will send you some bonus rounds ;D
I have some DoubleTap 200gr Noslers that should be here soon, 180 Trident Zeros and Cor-Bon PowRballs I got in trade with David.
I would like to see the Corbon Powerball retested. I saw some Powerball gel tests on the net a while back and they didn't expand.
Their is a ton of ammo there in line. Soon I hope.
Good tests!
I am surprised that 155 XTP from Underwood only penetrated 11 inches. I wonder how the Hornady load would do?
9122 XTP's? Don't have any of those.
In 200 XTP we have a variety of speeds and results here. It looks like PBR's 200 @ 1200 FPS is getting close to all out of it. The GAS Ammo 200's I sent Chopinbloc will give us a slower speed for it around 1000 FPS. I can't remember if I sent an Underwood 200 XTP which may be a tad faster than PBR?
Quote from: Intercooler on February 21 2013 02:38:24 AM MST
9122 XTP's? Don't have any of those.
That's them. I don't think we can find any right now either.
From what I remember, Kevin was loading the 200 XTP's pretty hot, so I would say they are a good 60 fps faster than the PBR.
LOL. You beat me to it. I had a lot of school work yesterday and ran out of time to post the videos after uploading. Thank you.
So many more interesting ones to do too! I think I sent enough of that. 22 to do pistol and rifle. That will be interesting. I think that is the baddest out there.
I know your have the .22's slated. What other 10's there now look interesting to do? Tuesday I will send the DT stuff.
The .40 version of the PPU 180gr JHP. Going slower and still no expansion:
That's sad. I guess the Serbians haven't quite figured out how to get hollow points to expand. If those bullets had much of a chance of expanding at all then I would have thought the gel would have made it as easy as any media for them to do so. Can't imagine water would have made any more of a difference, but in the real world it clearly wouldn't matter anyway. Maybe it's just the 40 S&W velocity level. It would be interesting to see how that bullet does at Nuclear 10mm levels from a Contender or Carbine into the gel.
It's been done. Chopinbloc did it already.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 02 2013 12:42:58 PM MST
It's been done. Chopinbloc did it already.
Yep....and it expanded like a full metal jacket bullet.
What barrel length?
He uses a Witness 4.5" barrel.
The PPU is a rather low velocity round for 10mm. The bullet might react differently if it were driven close to 1300 fps.
Right, 4.5". That isn't Contender or Carbine length like I mentioned.
Yea don't know anyone with one of those. David Sneed could do it with his Mectech if he decides to do gel. In 10mm though most of us think pistol versus a rifle barrel lengths.
Right. It wasn't so much that I was trying to point out specific platforms as much as pointing toward higher velocities in general toward getting those PPU serbian bullets to expand. Like at least the 1300fps 4949shooter mentioned.
I have seen videos of them fired into water with the same results. Just not expanders it seems.
Just seems weird. I'ld think even if it wasn't pretty, that they'ld at least do something besides shed jackets.
I agree. Maybe they use Superman lead :o
They might expand in 3 feet of bear meat. :P
LOL ;D
They'd probably expand if they were anywhere near 10mm velocity. 880 fps is slower than a 180 gr .40 S&W ought to be moving. 1100-1200 fps would likely have much different results. I can't figure why they would load that stuff so weak when their .223 ammo is pretty hot and also made with a well constructed bullet of decent accuracy.
Any plans for more tests?
Yeah, I finally got my new batch of gelatin to calibrate correctly. Right now both batches are in the large tubs so for the next test (hopefully Friday) I'm going to do the buckshot wax slug, .22lr, and a retest of the drywall and .223. After that, I plan to pour all the gelatin into the smaller "pistol" molds and knock out a bunch of the stuff you sent.
I might bring along one or two of the lighter 10mm just in case there is enough undamaged gelatin left after the other tests but I don't anticipate getting a chance to do more 10mm until after I remelt the blocks.
Might as well be a fmj.It's like they drilled a hold in a fmj.
I proposed a test to Chopinbloc where I send him more PPU so he can work the bullets into a real 10mm load. Think that would change things?
Smash some gel today?
No sir. Been busy.
I also posted tests of 9mm 115 gr Hi-Shok and .22lr Aguila 40 gr Interceptor to my channel. In addition to that, I tested the PPU 180 gr JHP bullets over a hand load as well as hand loaded 155 gr TAC-XP. I wasn't able to get good pics of the wound channels so I decided not to post the video but here are the numbers and a couple pics:
I pulled the PPU 180 gr and loaded them right back into their own primed cases over 11.2 gr of AA#7, which generated 1,194 fps. It expanded to 0.668", max, and 0.617" min. Retained weight was 172.5 gr. Unfortunately, it curved down a bit and rode along the table, coming to rest at about 18 3/4". I don't believe this to be the real penetration depth, though.
I also shot a 155 gr TAC-XP loaded over 8.2 gr of 800-X. That generated 1,192 fps and penetrated 14.2". Retained weight was 154.8 gr. Max expansion was 0.759" and min was 0.481". I couldn't get any good pictures of the wound track so I decided not to post a video but I consider the numbers to be accurate.
(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/122/img1478e.jpg)
Thanks for the tests! Looks like the PPU can expand after all... just needs a bit more ooooomph! :)
I'm impressed with the HSTs. My father just bought a chronograph so I should be able to work up some HST loads this summer and actualy know what kind of velocity I'm getting.
Good test and worth sending those PPU's down. Now I can pester them! ;D
The 155 TAC-XP over 8.2 grains of IMR800X was right at the 1200 fps mark, that's what I was thinking that 8.4 would be there or slightly above. Great job
the HST did better than I thought, and it really rocked that gel at that velocity. I think you found the sweet spot for them.
The PPU's expanded too. They might make a decent load after all when driven properly.
Are the PPUs available as a component?
No. But we can pester them to up their velocity!
How responsive do you expect the Serbians to be?
Not very.
I e-mailed the U.S. group.
Let us know. I hope it works!
Me too. I don't mean to be a wet blanket; I'd like some decent, cheap 10mm ammo, too. That PPU stuff was cheaper than most ball ammo and if they put some more powder in there, they'd be set. 880 fps is way too slow for even .40 S&W.
PBR is the hit if he ever has some to offer up.
10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4kiwUyIuTY)
10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB calibration: 600.8", 3.5"
Impact velocity: (Err), 1,425 fps
Penetration: 8.6", 8.6"
Retained weight: 129.3 gr, 122.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.848", 0.882"
Min expansion: 0.794", 0.702"
(http://imageshack.us/a/img39/2324/img1575n.JPG)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/1489/img1578ja.jpg)
10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90UsPS7oHs)
10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB calibration: 582.9", 3.25"
Velocity: 1,076, (Err)
Penetration: 14.8", 15.5"
Retained weight: 193.8 gr, 192.7 gr
Max expansion: 0.704", 0.679"
Min expansion: 0.662", 0.572"
(http://imageshack.us/a/img818/600/img1570w.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img201/361/img1571mr.jpg)
Well that is interesting...Thanks for the info! 8)
My pleasure.
Forgot to embed:
Thanks for the tests! The Nosler seemed to do ok. I wouldn't want to carry that pow'rball, not even close to enough penetration. The Nosler 135 seems like it would hold up a lot better at those speeds.
Atomic 10mm video (http://"http://youtu.be/3KbLafCnrH0")
10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"
Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
Penetration: greater than 17.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A
Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.
What is the cost of this stuff?
The website just says sold out and doesn't give a price.
Intercooler sent it to me. I have no idea.
Honestly I thought the terminal performance looked pretty good in that gel.
Quote from: REDLINE on June 22 2013 12:10:14 AM MDT
Honestly I thought the terminal performance looked pretty good in that gel.
Same here. That's why I am inquiring as to the cost. Perhaps IC will weigh in soon.
I got 1276 FPS in testing so we are in the ballpark there 8)
Atomic sold out all their ammo to Cheaper Than Nothing >:D Kevin at one point used the Hex Plated bullets in 10mm and I also sent some of his .357's with it loaded up for gel. I guess these are comparable to PBR's Zero offerings? They were about $36 a box when Atomic had them on their site.
I just checked CTD's website and they are not listed. No big loss, as they probably would have charged more than I would have been willing to pay anyhow.
I may redo the test some day with a larger block. The penetration is certainly adequate and the TSC indicates there was early and dramatic expansion but I suspect that the petals folded back and tore off, leaving a relatively small piece. While this load would be better than ball or plain lead, I'd prefer Gold Dot, XTP, etc. over it.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to test it, Intercooler.
Thank you!
Can't wait for the Buffalo Bore and Selway in the last batch I sent! Both are also new bullets that haven't been seen in gel. So many others too in different calibers and if you get all of those done I may send .22 Magnums later. :o
.22 mag would be interesting.
I haven't gotten an answer on the Selway bullet from their store yet but I have the guys behind the counter looking for answers.
Quote from: Raggedyman on June 22 2013 10:10:18 AM MDTWhile this load would be better than ball or plain lead, I'd prefer Gold Dot, XTP, etc. over it.
I hear ya. My favorite is still the 155gr Gold Dot. Still, I was relatively impressed with the hex compared to what I've seen from numerous other bullets at various velocities.
If you are interested in testing some DRT 105 grains and run them hyper velocity I can send you some to load up we would have to collaborate on loads to be that 1700 FPS load though.
Atomic hex looks like Rainier HPs list for $57.00 per 500 I think I paid 60 bucks for 500 & free shipping form Rainier Ballisticss on cheaper than dirt for 50 rounds $49.00+ shipping to much for my taste I load them my shelf 1300fps.
Yup. Rainier Hex Plated and I confirmed way back when at Cabela's on the shelf.
You guys are teaching me alot keep on keeping on!
Buffalo Bore 180 gr Sierra Power Jacket (http://"http://youtu.be/doj4RcToeQc")
10mm Buffalo Bore 180 gr Sierra Power Jacket fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"
Impact velocity: 1,311 fps
Penetration: 10.7"
Retained weight: 181.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.853"
Min expansion: 0.560"
Selway 180 gr JHP (http://"http://youtu.be/tTks647zosk")
10mm Selway 180 gr JHP fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"
Impact velocity: 1,105 fps
Penetration: 12.9"
Retained weight: 175.2 gr
Max expansion: 0.678"
Min expansion: 0.600"
10mm 180 gr Winchester generic JHP hand load (http://"http://youtu.be/XqbEOk75PXo")
10mm Winchester 180 gr generic JHP loaded over 10.0 gr of AA#7 fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"
Impact velocity: 1,106 fps
Penetration: greater than 16"
Retained weight: N/A
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A
The bullet experienced significant fragmentation and deviated from its path, exiting the block at about the 16" mark. A second shot performed similarly.
Thanks for the new test, Many are waiting for the Speer 200 gr Gold Dot hopefully around 1200 fps.
Good luck! 8)
Maybe you could couple the next three GD200, Underwood XTP 200 and Gas Ammo 200?
Good plan. It won't happen until the Witness comes back from EAA, though. I'll test the .357 and .44 loads you sent in the mean time.
Why is it the faster bullets tend to penetrate less? Doesn't make sense to me. Then some test I see a slower round will go just as deep (Hornady 180 vs. Underwood 180). Then hot 180 goes deeper than hot 200. Then .357 magnum 125gr deeper than 135 10mm. Hmm....
That high speed impact makes the "parachute" open up quicker. From what I have seen the 200 XTP seems to take more speed to open up really good. That's one that may work about perfect at 1300 FPS.
Quote from: Intercooler on September 01 2013 03:48:22 PM MDT
That high speed impact makes the "parachute" open up quicker. From what I have seen the 200 XTP seems to take more speed to open up really good. That's one that may work about perfect at 1300 FPS.
Exactly, for a hollowpoint.
And with a full metal jacket bullet, the extra velocity will drive it deeper into tissue.
I wouldn't wanna be hit by that Buffalo Bore round. The penetration was lacking a bit, but that is one helluva cavity.
That Sierra bullet I don't think is bonded and held together really good. Wonder if they make a 200gr version?
Quote from: Intercooler on September 02 2013 08:37:09 AM MDT
That Sierra bullet I don't think is bonded and held together really good. Wonder if they make a 200gr version?
Don't Know.
Nosler makes a 200 grain JHP though. This is the one Double Tap loads in their 10mm. I would love to see that bullet torqued up to 1200 fps and fired into gel.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=595
Did you see the video Raggedyman did on it?
On the Doubletap load, or on the Nosler?
Either way I must have missed it.
Thanks IC.
Quote from: krafcheck on September 01 2013 03:35:17 PM MDT
Why is it the faster bullets tend to penetrate less? Doesn't make sense to me. Then some test I see a slower round will go just as deep (Hornady 180 vs. Underwood 180). Then hot 180 goes deeper than hot 200. Then .357 magnum 125gr deeper than 135 10mm. Hmm....
The other guys covered it pretty well. Extra velocity in a JHP typically results in less penetration due to earlier and wider opening. I'd like to add that a .357 bullet of similar weight, construction, and velocity will typically penetrate more deeply than its 10mm counterpart because it is narrower and thus has a higher sectional density.
.357 Magnum got it's street rating off of how it does. In a revolver it doesn't get better for a night stand piece. Add a Crimson Trace and it does!
Maybe some .357 tests here soon to see how they do 8)
A Chiappa Rhino with an Insight M3 would be pretty nice.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v88/viper1357/Guns%20stuff/Rhino/rhino_rtgsd985.jpg)
Yeah, with the Witness off for service, I'll be doing a few more .357 tests so if any of you only look at the 10mm ammo forums here on this site like I do, you'll have to keep an eye on the other forums or my YouTube channel if you're interested in the tests.
I had the snubby and the 6"
shoot well, recoil management is as advertised.
Just could not get over the chip thing or the lock complexity and the potential for issue as a result. Sold them all.
You mean the RFID? Why didn't you just remove it? I understand the lock complexity issue but I don't see it as any worse a problem than a DA/SA auto. It it's well made, it should be reliable.
I'd really like to get the 4" model some day.
Somehow these "new mangled"...I mean "New Fangled", revolvers just don't appeal to me! :-\
They lack the sexy appeal of the revolvers like that of say a S&W Mod 19 or Model 686.
Quote from: Raggedyman on September 06 2013 11:12:37 AM MDT
You mean the RFID? Why didn't you just remove it? I understand the lock complexity issue but I don't see it as any worse a problem than a DA/SA auto. It it's well made, it should be reliable.
I'd really like to get the 4" model some day.
Yup thats what I mean and they are more complex than a standard lock of lets say Ruger Single action or even double action. Like I said I had three at one time shot the heck out of them they shot as advertised the reduced recoil and accuracy was there just no my cup of java. Dang expensive too.
Got my Witness back from the factory today. They replaced the broken trigger bar and "adjusted the barrel," whatever the hell that means. Faster turnaround than I expected. I think they had it about 3 or 4 days. I really expected it to take a couple months.
That means I can do the 200 gr Gold Dot next time I get a chance to go out, probably in a week or two tops. I'd like to test it at around 1,050 fps and around 1,200 fps. I'm pretty sure that a charge of 8.5 gr of 800X will get me a little under 1,200 fps but I'm not sure what I should do at the lower end. Anybody have some suggestions on how to play "Price is Right" with the speed of sound on a 200 gr projectile? I'd like to get as close as possible without going over and I don't have enough bullets to do a lot of workups, especially because I need to use several for working up the higher end. Rome, that's not a hint to send me more, I'm sure this will be enough, I just want starting points to be as efficient as I can. I have 800 X, AA7, and AA9. What loads do you guys think would let me get where I want with the least workup for that lower end?
Cool! I'm sure you have a bunch at the ready. Let me know when you are ready for the next batch. Everyone wants to see the new Hornady 175 I'm getting today.
Will do. I've got quite a lot of just 10mm to work through, not to mention the 9mm, .357, and .44 that you sent. I want to try the Lyman 165 gr Devastators that one of you guys (Shadow, maybe?) sent me a long time ago. I also have a fun plan to "retire" the old gelatin blocks that are still taking up space in my fridge.
If we were closer, I'd help you to disintegrate those nasty jello blocks! :o
Did the Nugent round blow out upwards in first block?
Yessir. I would have just re-shot the test right away but it was the last test and there was no more room left in the block. I'll probably do that one again some day but I think we have a fairly decent idea of how 180 gr Gold Dots perform at that speed.
Thanks for the tests, Andrew.
Yes thanks for testing. I am guessing that was the hunting Nugent round as opposed to the (Defender) 180 at 1285.
My pleasure. You'd have to ask Intercooler which kind.
10mm 156 gr Lyman Devastator hand load fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 587.3, 3.6"
Impact velocity: 1,450 fps
Penetration: 13.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A
This bullet definitely lived up to it's name. Like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. I just couldn't stop taking pics of this one. The deepest recovered fragment only weighed 22.5 gr and measured 0.616" x 0.307" x 0.110" but that fragment plus all the strained fragments (45.6 gr) only adds up to 68.1 gr, leaving 87.9 gr unaccounted for. If you look closely, you can see the mark where a fragment left the block at around the 13" mark, just before the last fragment that is in the block. I believe this to be the core, which should weigh in the neighborhood of 87 gr. Hopefully I can test again to confirm this.
10mm 195 gr Mihec cast LHP (shallow pin) fired from 4.25" S&W 1076 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 587.3 fps, 3.6"
Impact velocity: 1,100 fps
Penetration: 26.6"
Retained weight: 192.2 gr
(no expansion)
9mm Underwood 115 gr Zero JHP fired from Glock 22 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 587.3 fps, 3.6"
Impact velocity: 1,234 fps
Penetration: 18.6"
Retained weight: 92.5 gr
(no expansion)
That 156 gr Devastator would be a surgeon's night mare trying to find at the frag-nasty pieces! :o
That devastator was awesome. It even had 13" of penetration.
The Zero JHP from Underwood did not do well. Is this what Kevin is loading now in 9mm?
That Zero 9mm is an Underwood original when Kevin loaded 9mm in once fired. Long ago!
Fair enough.
And thanks for the tests, Andrew.
My pleasure.
Is their anybody who makes factory ammo with those devastator bullets
Quote from: BlueLineFish on October 02 2013 07:34:35 AM MDT
Is their anybody who makes factory ammo with those devastator bullets
Not that bullet in particular. Those were cast from an OBSOLETE Lyman 10mm/40cal single cavity mold, I was lucky enough to purchase as New Old Stock. It was my intention to be able to sustain my needs if the SHTF! :o The ones used in the jel test, I sent to Raggedyman to play and test with.
There are some mold companies which have modified or cut their own HP molds with various Hollow Pointer pins and designs.
Lyman still sells the 9mm, 45ACP, 44cal line of Devastator HP molds...All are great bullets...
10mm/40cal
(https://s20.postimg.org/gfv0y4xjx/IMG_0386.jpg)
45ACP is
(https://s20.postimg.org/6ik055xot/IMG_0403.jpg)
44Mag
(https://s20.postimg.org/rfg89u3fh/IMG_0109.jpg)
You would have to check that the ratio is the same that Shadow used. Speaking of which, what ratio, cooling, hardness did you use, Shadow?
Those were straight Wheel Weight and air cooled around 12-14 BNH from what I recall. I can cast them softer using straight lead and some tin added, but hey they are what they are. Lead injectable SHTF supplies... ;D
I think they did fantastically as is. Further testing will confirm but it looks like they go off like a bomb, shedding the forward portion of the bullet and the core continues on to more than 12". If they do that consistently, I'd call that a suitable defense load. Thanks for the info, I'll update the description.
Quote from: Raggedyman on October 02 2013 11:08:45 AM MDT
I think they did fantastically as is. Further testing will confirm but it looks like they go off like a bomb, shedding the forward portion of the bullet and the core continues on to more than 12". If they do that consistently, I'd call that a suitable defense load. Thanks for the info, I'll update the description.
Coming from you and knowing how much stuff you have tested, I can accept that as a distinguishable defensive Zombie Killer! :o
Thank you for the vote of confidence.
10mm 200 gr cast softened point fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin. The bullet was water dropped and then the point was softened by hitting it with a propane torch while the base of the bullet remained in a water bath. 16-18 BHN. I apologize for the quality of the video. My main camera failed to record and I didn't notice I had the backup set to low quality. Let me know if you like the angle, though because I was thinking about including this angle along with my normal format. At higher quality, of course.
BB: 588.7, 3.1"
Impact velocity: 1,140 fps
Penetration: 28.1"
Retained weight: 203.1 gr
No expansion
As I review the video, I have to ask did the bullet turn end for end?
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/200grBulletGel_zpse5854431.jpg)
Yessir, it did. Good eye and great screen cap. It seems pretty typical for solids to turn 180 degrees. Here is the full size version of that pic:
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/3913/5mlf.jpg)
I was interested in seeing your results for DoubleTap 150gr Nosler and DoubleTap 180gr Nosler, but if they are in this thread somewhere, I missed them. Any plans to test those two? (They seem to run better and be more reliable in my 10mm Kimber Eclipse Custom II than any other full power ammo I've tried).
Is the 150gr the same bullet as loaded in the Corbon's? That was done but not the Double Tap's.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 18 2013 04:20:59 PM MDT
Is the 150gr the same bullet as loaded in the Corbon's? That was done but not the Double Tap's.
Midway doesn't identify the make of the 150gr Cor-Bon bullet ... the pic looks a bit like the Nosler, but Cor-Bon's webpage seems to imply that it's their own make. In any case, the Cor-Bon 10mm 150gr JHP is NOT full power: 1325 ft/s and 585 ft-lbs. DoubleTap 10mm 150gr JHP Nosler is 1475 ft/s and 725 ft-lbs. The Cor-Bon ISN'T a full-power 10mm round ... not even in the same league with DT. I don't know if there are any others, but the only full-power 10mm rounds I've shot are DoubleTap, Underwood, and BuffaloBore. Most of the others I've seen are "FBI 10mm" ammo, or in some cases, .40S&W in a 10mm casing.
Have you looked the sheet over? Many of the Double Tap rounds fall way short. I think lot of people complained about the Glock 4.6" ratings and they changed it now to a 5.5" barrel (CYA). With Buffalo Bore and Underwood you generally get what they rate them at. Actually, for the most part it seems most everyone not named Double Tap does well on the ratings :o
From what I've read, DT used to produce ammo that met their claims but several years ago they toned it down. Unfortunately, they didn't tone down their claims. No matter what the velocity, I'm not interested in buying from liars.
So far in my testing, every lead core 10mm bullet that weighed less than 165 gr failed to meet penetration standards. If Intercooler sent it and I haven't tested it yet, I will.
10mm Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"
Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 13.1"
Retained weight: 175.0 gr (counting the 2.0 gr rubber tip)
Max expansion: 0.652"
Min expansion: 0.566"
10mm 200 gr Mihec fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"
Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 23.5"
Retained weight: 193.5 gr
No expansion
Quote from: Raggedyman on October 20 2013 11:44:38 AM MDT
So far in my testing, every lead core 10mm bullet that weighed less than 165 gr failed to meet penetration standards.
What IS the penetration standard that you are using? And is there simultaneously an expansion standard?
I fixed the youtube for the 200 Mihec the video link was missing some of the elements to show and play.
Raggedyman, Also thanks for the post showing the results in the gel, it was great as usual!
Great tests Andrew!
Thank you again for your efforts.
Thank you, Shadow. Sorry about that.
Mike, 12" is the minimum penetration for a cartridge to be suitable for defense.
Many have said that the 170's didn't open well. At 23.1 probably why some felt the 10mm was too powerful with the deeper penetration.
Thanks again for another great video!
I think this is the most interesting test of the 10mm in it's original form. Thank You Raggedyman and to the donor as well. No freakin wonder my ears are beat up on the 10 in terms of over penetration. Great to see. It's still an education to those who do not know the full spectrum of the caliber and the various loads. Obviously this is what the past reflected and the whole FBI/Miami matter. Plus that block was rocked.
For the record, Intercooler donated this as well as most of the 10mm I've tested.
Intercooler has the big bucks ($$ not deer). :P
I wish! It's my main hobby which I spring for rather than cigarettes, alcohol or something else. Plus I eat a lot of tree bark to save money :o
When I was rich and single I went shooting every week, sometimes twice. I bought all the ammo I needed. If I would have known back then, I would have stocked up on all that vintage 10mm ammo. Winchester Black Talon and Ranger was all over the place.
Now with 4 kids, a dog, and a granddaughter coming to the house I am working OT and scrimping and scraping. It's a good thing Mrs. 49 went back to work!
Yea, Because of his generosity and dedication for the pull downs, is why I try and send Intercooler some stuff back. Sometimes my own handloads, using various bullets, mostly my cast bullets, as a way of giving back.
One thing is for sure, the data from the real world velocity numbers & gelatin data adds up for everyone to formulate the best bang for their BUCKS! 8) Both $$$ and four legged.... :P
I always find it interesting with today's results included 8)
Trades work better when I can find stuff. The Elite Ammo is the hardest!
Maybe we need a Factory Ammo needed post in the effort to fill in the gaps of what's no longer available.
Examples;
Elite Ammo any and all bullet weights
SwampFox's various bullet weights... 165, 155, 135
10mm C.O.P. 155 gr all copper hollow point fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 602.8 fps, 3.0"
Impact velocity: 1,008 fps
Penetration: 10.2"
Retained weight: 153.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.776"
Min expansion: 0.455"
10mm Littlestone 155 gr Barnes XPB fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 585.6 fps, 3.7"
Impact velocity: 1,128 fps
Penetration: 12.8"
Retained weight: 155.3 gr
Max expansion: 0.751"
Min expansion: 0.470"
Nice..
The results seem nearly identical to what I got from the TAC-XP test I did earlier, which leads me to believe there are little, if any differences between the XPB projectile and the TAC-XP, assuming Littlestone was accurate in its labeling.
Quote from: Raggedyman on January 04 2014 01:15:36 PM MST
The results seem nearly identical to what I got from the TAC-XP test I did earlier, which leads me to believe there are little, if any differences between the XPB projectile and the TAC-XP, assuming Littlestone was accurate in its labeling.
I was wondering about that, and was thinking they were the same bullet.
They could be. Barnes doesn't seem to offer the XPB in .400" so Littlestone might be incorrect or it's possible that Barnes used to market it as XPB and changed the name to sound more tacticooler.
It looks like the hollowpoint went ass end into a rock.
I dig that caramel colored gel! How's the coyote hunting been?
I filter the gelatin every time I remelt it but some of the dye from the denim and some of the really fine dirt and lead dust makes it through the filter. I use one of those very fine mesh "permanent" coffee filters. Pretty soon I'll have to toss this batch and make another.
I still haven't bought a hunt and fish license. I have made some progress on loads for that poodle shooter, though. 23.7 gr of 8208 under a 69 gr Nosler did a really good group.
The penetration was not what I expected, however lower velocity and it appears that round ball struck the rear of the 135 gr Nosler, this may have turned it sideways as it entered the gel. ???
Once again another great test...Thanks! 8)
RM,
First I would just like to thank you for all your work a d everyone who has contributed to this great thread.
I would like to ask you a question from your very first video on page 1. 180 gr. GDHP at 1300+ fps I saw pictures but no measurements or penetration depths.
Reason I ask is that I just picked up 400 of these GDHP 180 gr and was wondering what would be the best velocity to run these little jems for peek performance?
Thanks
Dying to see the Crossfire Black Max.
Me too and the 1400 FPS 155gr all coppers.
Quote from: 445 supermag on February 25 2014 06:56:45 PM MST
RM,
First I would just like to thank you for all your work a d everyone who has contributed to this great thread.
I would like to ask you a question from your very first video on page 1. 180 gr. GDHP at 1300+ fps I saw pictures but no measurements or penetration depths.
Reason I ask is that I just picked up 400 of these GDHP 180 gr and was wondering what would be the best velocity to run these little jems for peek performance?
Thanks
Sorry about that. I didn't notice. Here's the video and the numbers. I'll go back and add it at the beginning. I also tested a .40 S&W 180 gr Gold Dot from a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 day before yesterday and I've just been too busy to post the video yet. It should be up later today but here's a spoiler: I got about 1,300 fps from .40 S&W out of a 16" barrel.
10mm 180 gr Speer Gold Dot over 10.1 gr 800-X. Impact velocity is 1,317 fps. Fired through four layers of denim. BB calibration 594.9 fps, 3.25"
This is the bullet Underwood uses for their "bonded" load and at the same velocity.
Penetration 11.25"
Max expansion: 0.937"
Min expansion: 0.546"
Retained weight: 179.1 gr
ETA: I see what's going on here. The "picture" you see is an embedded video. It may not be playing nicely with the browser you're using. If it's working properly, you just click in the middle of it and it will play. Data is presented at the end of each of my videos and in the comments section on the YouTube page. If an embedded video in a forum doesn't work right for you, though, you can quote the post so you get the plain text and copy the URL into your browser. Alternatively, you can just copy the string of gobbletygook after the youtu.be/ for short YouTube links or after the = symbol for the long format and paste that character string into the YouTube search bar at youtube.com. In the case of this video, the character string is "RuGFfgZb5a0"
Tnoutdoors9 got 17+ in penetration with the underwood 180gd on YouTube.
Wow, almost an inch of expansion...nice!
Gentlemen, others have said it and I'm going to repeat it, "Outstanding!"
You've not only provided the information and gel tests to help 10mm owners decide on the proper loads to use for their intended applications but you've saved us a ton of money in the process. Personally I'm switching from Black Talons to Underwood 155gr XTP's for my Witness Stock carry piece.
Keep up the great work, it's appreciated more than you know.
Quote from: macc283 on February 26 2014 09:13:14 AM MST
Tnoutdoors9 got 17+ in penetration with the underwood 180gd on YouTube.
He doesn't use gelatin. He used Simtest in his earlier tests and currently uses Cleargel. Even when calibrated gelatin is used, there can be some variation from shot to shot. It's *usually* no more than an inch or so but there are times where the variation is quite a bit more. I recently tested the same bullet from .40 S&W out of a 16" carbine and it produced roughly the same velocity but much more penetration. I also tested 11.7" and 14.4" from the same load, same day, same block of gelatin. That's why professional testing is usually done with five shots to establish a statistically relevant average.
Thanks for watching guys, and here's this week's test:
Wow the weather looks great out there!
This is what we are dealing with in the northeast:
https://www.google.com/search?source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=RtoPU7udNOXj0QHX0oHQBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=1536&bih=746&q=sparta%20nj%20snow
Quote from: Raggedyman on October 29 2013 05:20:38 PM MDT
10mm Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.
BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"
Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 13.1"
Retained weight: 175.0 gr (counting the 2.0 gr rubber tip)
Max expansion: 0.652"
Min expansion: 0.566"
This is the load I carry in my Glock 20F.
Thx for showing the Black Max. Wasn't the miracle I thought it would be. Kind of a cool looking novelty item.
I wish the 10mm hornady had gone about 16". im surprised it didnt since expansion was about .65 avg. current carry load in g20sf though.
I'm going to ask Milo to slow it down to 1250 FPS and see how it does. 1600 FPS may exceed the 140's speed limit.
I don't know about that. According to Andrew's test, the 140 at 1500+ makes an awful nice home defense load with minimal penetration.
I guess it all depends on the application.
Quote from: 4949shooter on March 02 2014 05:01:36 AM MST
I don't know about that. According to Andrew's test, the 140 at 1500+ makes an awful nice home defense load with minimal penetration.
I guess it all depends on the application.
Which round are you referring to?
Quote from: Intercooler on March 02 2014 07:38:41 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on March 02 2014 05:01:36 AM MST
I don't know about that. According to Andrew's test, the 140 at 1500+ makes an awful nice home defense load with minimal penetration.
I guess it all depends on the application.
Which round are you referring to?
This one:
It smokes and that brass still looks good. I'm a little concerned why the all copper didn't hold together though. This might make a great round as-is if you buy the theory the fragments do a bunch of damage. If Andrew would want to rework this on his own at a couple of different speeds I could send the rounds to do it. I'm thinking at a reduced velocity it might go 14" or so and give a nice mushroom. We need to see the 155gr at 1400 FPS to see if it acts differently.
I agree the bullet will hold together more at the lower velocity. I'm just saying a low penetration / high velocity fragmenting bullet has it's own niche (like home defense).
The velocity on this one show lower than an out of the box new round. This was one from the pull-down that was reassembled. Testing has shown the velocity usually goes down some due to a tension difference. I will try to get another box at some point to see if a new round going faster drives deeper.
They need a bigger cavity to hydraulically induce expansion. The cavity of the Devastator is almost too big even for hard alloy, using pure lead and slower velocities (like < 900 fps) they open without busting apart so much.
I need to try some with RTV sealant filled cavities to see how they work, it may delay the expansion till further inside.
If you get a chance try that out...
That's actually really close to what I was hoping for. Another 100 fps ought to nail it. I wanted a load that would penetrate deeply and expand very moderately. A woods defense load. There are plenty that drive deeply with no expansion and a small meplat but that bullet is like a full wadcutter. A little more velocity and I'm hoping to get about .45".
Quote from: Raggedyman on March 18 2014 11:25:06 PM MDT
That's actually really close to what I was hoping for. Another 100 fps ought to nail it. I wanted a load that would penetrate deeply and expand very moderately. A woods defense load. There are plenty that drive deeply with no expansion and a small meplat but that bullet is like a full wadcutter. A little more velocity and I'm hoping to get about .45".
yeah that mihec is looking good, i agree with you on a little more expansion.
Are there any gel tests with Ted Nugent's 10mm Speer JHP? I know Intercooler did one but the video I found said the bullet curve upwards and, as a result, he didn't get any expansion/weight data. Was there an update to that?
No, sir. I haven't redone that test. Velocity was about 1,200 fps so it ought to do well. 180 gr Gold Dot at 1,300 fps are marginal and they work well from 900 fps on up so 1,200 fps ought to be about perfect for a "true" 10mm 180 gr Gold Dot. Maybe I'll get back to that one some day.
Anyhow, here's the Federal 180 gr Trophy Bonded JSP:
I know HP's travel more with Denim. Would it be possible to fire the other one at some point with Denim to see if it hits 18"?
Quote from: Intercooler on March 28 2014 07:23:23 PM MDT
I know HP's travel more with Denim. Would it be possible to fire the other one at some point with Denim to see if it hits 18"?
Still pretty impressive results in my view. Thanks to Raggedyman and Intercooler for doing the test and sharing the results.
I certainly can, but I think that the reason JHPs go deeper when passing through denim is because it delays expansion. It shouldn't have any effect on JSP. Remember that neither the IWBA nor the FBI proscribes denim for rifle testing.
Great test. They bill it as a do-all round and it kind of looks the part except big Bears. The Denim would just give us the stanard setup for personal defense.
It's also good to see you got 1270 FPS velocity. My results gave an average of 1279 FPS, but that's a 4.75" barrel and makes sense.
What's next? It would be interesting to see the Montana Gold 9mm and Nosler 9mm since videos don't exist of those. The 180gr .357 Magnum will be a neat one too.
Quote from: Raggedyman on March 28 2014 06:33:37 PM MDT
No, sir. I haven't redone that test. Velocity was about 1,200 fps so it ought to do well. 180 gr Gold Dot at 1,300 fps are marginal and they work well from 900 fps on up so 1,200 fps ought to be about perfect for a "true" 10mm 180 gr Gold Dot. Maybe I'll get back to that one some day.
Anyhow, here's the Federal 180 gr Trophy Bonded JSP:
Were you able to confirm they were actual Gold Dots? I've read elsewhere that they may have been knock offs or a lesser Speer HP that they claimed was gold dots.
I don't know how I managed to post the wrong video twice. I'll just blame it on acute caffeine deficiency.
Those bullets came from the same box, I think, and the box says "Gold Dot" on it. I'm confident that they were both real Gold Dots and that they were both actually 180 gr. I'm also confident that the gelatin performed properly because both calibration results are well within range. Nearly ideal, really.
Sometimes bullets do weird things, which is why professional tests include at least five shots to establish an average. Some day I'll choose a few of the best performing loads from my tests and do a larger battery of tests with them to gain a statistically relevant sample size. For now, I'm inclined to believe that penetration is typically closer to the 16" mark for 180 gr Gold dots at around 1,300 fps. The earlier penetration result of 11.25" is probably an anomaly.
Just signed up for the 10mm forum although I've been lurking for awhile thanks to Shadow on the glock forum.
Raggadyman, thanks so much for all your hard work with the gell tests. Very informative and I think your standards are high.
I wanted to bring up an aspect of bullet prformance that I never see addressed with gel tests. This is the effects that range has on bullet performance. On military ranges I have noticed that fmj bullets that travel some distance before returnig to earth often will leak their melted lead core out the rear of the bullet. This takes place because as the bullet travels through the air at high speed heat builds up due to friction.
This happens even to the fairly slow .45 caliber bullets with a trajectory of just a few hundred yards after being fired from a 1911 or Thompson. The heat caused by friction increases the malability of both the core and the jacket. This in turn is bound to affect terminal performance.
For instance Montana Gold bullets with their brass allloy jackets and harder alloy core will be more mallable at 50 yds than they would be at 15 feet. Therefore they may be a better hunting bullet for moderate ranges than a Golden Saber with it's soft core.
Of course many other things come into play, such as the drop in velocity over distance of any bullet, but this just leads me to believe that bullet performance must be established at various ranges to get an idea of the performance "curve" of each bullet.
Anybody with any thoughts on this subject?
mrpipesmkr, Welcome to the forum, that's the first I have ever heard of this especially with slow pistol rounds or any others for that matter...even rifle rounds I have recovered haven't shown any melting on recovered bullets.
I have shot deer at 130 yards using Hornady 200 gr XTP's in a sabot that started at 2000 fps, estimated impact velocity was 1280-1300 fps, these showed no melting of alloy on recovered projectiles.
Now machine guns firing at sustained high rates of fire, can heat the barrels to extreme temps, so much so that rounds can cook off as the enter the chamber to continuously keep firing, barrels that hot show the projectiles as shadows traveling through the barrel visible in low light, in instances such as this I could see enough heat to be absorbed as the bullet rides the bore to heat it's core metal...this condition maybe what is being referred to as melted cores being found. ???
Now, I have seen bullets that the cores have mechanically separated, due to stresses of jacket deformation at impact.
Lead needs to be near 600 degrees to melt, pure tin at about 450 degrees, Getting that much heat from air friction alone would be difficult in my opinion... ::)
Shadow, thanks for your quick response!
I don't think we are on different pages on this. Re-reading my post it does appear that I was saying lead would melt (flow) at typical ranges. I know this is not the case as I have recoverd many of my own bullets 100 yards downrange. Thay were intact, not melted. So, to be clear, I am NOT saying that after 100 yards your bullet is nothing more than a melted blob of lead headed down range.
But remember, many older military ranges exceed 1000 yards, especially if they are general ranges firing many types of small arms. Traveling this distance provides plenty of time for heat to build up. Also, you are correct in that many of these rounds would have been fired from automatic weapons.
My only intent on using the example of pure lead flowing from spent bullets observed far downrange was to demonstrate that friction created as the bullet passes through the atmosphere does cause heat build-up.
As another example, the SR71 spyplane traveled at a high rate of speed (mach2-3 ) if I remember correctly. because of heat build-up through air friction it could not be skinned in ordinary aircraft aluminum. A titanium skin had to be developed for it in order to withstand the temps.
So, to me it's a given that friction caused by passage through the air will increase the temp of a bullet and thus effect the malability of whatever materials the bullet is made from. Speed, distance traveled and other variables surley come into play.
The question is: How does this affect the terminal performance of the bullet at range?
I would tend to think it would aid the performance because as the velocity drops off the increased malability would aid bullet deformation.
As an example of this, my longest shot on a game animal was just over 500 yards. I took the shot across a draw in Colorado. There was no wind and I had plenty of time to plan and take the shot. I was using a model 70 chambered in 30-06 with 170 grain boattail soft points. The deer went down with one shot, struggled for a couple of minutes, then died. I might have taken a second shot, but the buck was with a group of does who clustered around him when he went down. Obviously, I was far enough away that the report of my shot did not scatter the does. Even though bullet velocity had dropped for 500 yards, bullet performance was good. Good expansion, very little fragmentation.
So my point in bringing the subject up is merely to say that gel tests should be done at longer ranges as well as short ranges to get a better idea of the performance envelope of a given bullet.This is more true for rifles and carbines but even applies to pistols used for hunting. The 10mm has taken down many pigs at ranges up to 80-100 yards.
Thank you for the kind words. The reason I don't conduct gelatin tests at longer range is twofold: the first, and probably most important, reason is consistency. The purpose of gelatin testing is to provide a reproducible way of comparing one projectile to another with as few variables as possible. The standard is 10 feet so that's what I do (give or take a bit). The second reason is that it takes some time and effort to prepare the blocks so to get as much bang for my buck, I prefer to conduct two or more test shots. To do that, I need to be able to precisely place the hits so the paths don't interfere with each other. In other words, I'm not a good enough shot to be absolutely sure of hitting within 1" or less of my intended point of impact, especially with different handguns and loads, at anything much greater than 10 feet.
Now that I'm getting settled into my new job, I ought to be able to get back to testing more regularly, albeit at a much slower pace than before. One thing that I've wanted to try for some time is to test the terminal effect of various .224" projectiles at extended range. I think I can get a good feel for that by loading to the starting charge with a given projectile and placing the block at 200m. I can position a steel plate in front of the chronograph just in case I screw up. I'm reasonably confident that I can hold better than 1 moa (~2" diameter group at 200m) with a couple of my rifles.
I'm pretty confident that whoever told you that the lead in the projectiles was melting had no clue what they were talking about. Soldiers often think they know something about ballistics or just repeat some crap that other troops told them. I've heard some pretty ridiculous things from Joes. From the oft repeated fallacy that 5.56x45mm "tumbles" as it flies through the air, to a 3rd Group SFC who told me that an M249 does not fire from an open bolt. When bullets with an open base (like most FMJ projectiles) strike something, it is fairly common for the lead to "squish" out of the jacket, especially if they strike the object at an angle. This is caused mechanically, not by heat, but because lead is very soft, it can appear that it was fluid when it happened.
Hi Raggedyman.
Thanks so much for taking time to respond to my post. I and others very much appreciate the hard work you have done with the Gel tests.
I had no intention of starting a controversy on the forum and hope you understand I was just expressing a thought I have had through the years which is: what is the effect of heat build up on a lead core projectiles terminal performance.
Let me assure you that lead cores melting out of bullets is not a barracks rumor I heard some where, but a fact I obserevd with my own eyes while serving in the military and working on A large range. So, I am left with the choice of believing what you wrote or my own eyes, which at the time were better than 20-20.
On this range I occasionaly had a reason to go down range, far beyond the various target lines. There was a vehicle road provided for this purpose. Thousands of rounds had been fired annualy on this range for many years, dating to WW1. Spent bullets were every where, in various calibers. Not every bullet had a melted core but occasionaly I would observe one. Being always interested in guns and ballistics, the first time I noticed a pool of lead behind the mostly empty jacket of a bullet I really had to scratch my head. What in the world caused this? No sign of fire, so the only heat available to the bullet would have been caused by the propellant, friction created in the firing of the profectile and the friction created as it passed through the atmosphere.
And, These were not tracer rounds either. Tracer projectiles are easily identifiable after firing because their jackets are somewhat longer than normal so that they have additional space to hold the pyrotechnical tracer element.
Slow as they are, I did observe .45 bullets with small pools of lead at there base. My theory is that the .45 ball projectile used by the military is so un-aerodynamic that it builds heat lower velocities than a more streamlined projectle would.
Honestly, I find it hard to believe that anyone would question the fact that air friction can cause heat build up in an object. After all, that is exactly why the space shuttle used carbon tiles to protect it's airfoil and bottom surfaces during re-entry from space.
So it is inevitable that a lead bullet traveling fast enough and far enough will reach the melting point of lead.
Again, let me say that I am NOT saying that A lead bullet turns into a lead blob 100 yards down range. What I AM saying is that a bullet will build up enough heat to effect the metallurgy of that bullet after in travels far enough. Lead at average ambient temperature is already very mallable. At 400 degrees it is much more mallable than at 70 degrees. This will effect bullet performance in projectles that are designed to distort on impact.
Therefore, gel testing at longer ranges would be informative in that it would correlate the effects of velociy drop and heat on the terminal performance of bullets.
Again, thanks so much for the hard work you have provided to the forum and please know that I only seek to add information, not to be argumentative in any way.
WOW, my two typing fingers are plumb wore-out!
I'm not disputing that you saw what you saw. I do disagree with your hypothesis for a number of reasons. The first is the observable fact that very few bullets are found in this condition. That indicates that another factor was at work. The second is that if the lead were melted in flight, it would also leak out in flight and you would not find a pool of lead near the jacket, but only an empty jacket. Air friction can heat an object but it takes speeds that are several times that of a rifle bullet, let alone a pistol bullet. At slower speeds, the air only cools the object down to ambient temperature. Yes, the Space Shuttle experienced significant heating but it was also traveling at approximately 27,000 fps not 3,000 fps for 5.56mm or 900 fps for .45 ACP. Literally nine times faster than 5.56mm muzzle velocity.
While you might not have been looking at tracers or seen RECENT evidence of a fire, the most likely explanation for what you saw is that tracers caused an earlier range fire (you know that's a pretty common event), which melted some of the projectiles. They were later buried and then uncovered for you to find possibly decades after the fire that melted them.
I think you meant 27,000 MPH ;)
Well the re entry of the shuttle or even most spacecraft from earth orbit is about 18,000 MPH or 26400 feet per second so give Raggedyman an "A+" on his home work assignment here, Intercooler go study some more... ???http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/BGH/hihyper.html (http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/BGH/hihyper.html)
:P ::)
Let's just say it's real damn fast compared to a pistol round :P
I did actually think about the subsequence grass fire scenario, that Raggedyman graciously mention earlier, yes that scenario is very real, but what would I know about that one, after putting out fires for over 30 years!
I have seen glass bottles deformed as a result of a ordinary grass fires which would require about 1200 degrees F, easily doable in low level burning field grasses and brush. That would be plenty enough to melt most alloys of lead out.
Interesting take on a few things here.
I'd like to share a piece by Berger Bullets about the melting lead subject. Its the second page and second paragraph.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/match-grade-berger-hunting-vld-history-1.php
I give great respect to the knowledge of this group of folks at Berger. I'm not equating 5" barrels at 30k PSI vs 1000yd center fire rounds at 60k PSI smoking out of a 30"tube as to how hot the projectile gets. Its barrel friction, not air friction causing the issue.
Greg
Quote from: Intercooler on May 10 2014 05:20:36 PM MDT
I think you meant 27,000 MPH ;)
Nope. I think I got the math right. According to Wiki, re-entry occurs at about Mach 25, or 8,200 meters per second. Using Google to convert meters to feet yields 27,000 fps.
Quote from: Geeman on May 10 2014 08:04:40 PM MDT
Interesting take on a few things here.
I'd like to share a piece by Berger Bullets about the melting lead subject. Its the second page and second paragraph.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/match-grade-berger-hunting-vld-history-1.php
I give great respect to the knowledge of this group of folks at Berger. I'm not equating 5" barrels at 30k PSI vs 1000yd center fire rounds at 60k PSI smoking out of a 30"tube as to how hot the projectile gets. Its barrel friction, not air friction causing the issue.
Greg
That was a really cool article and fairly surprising. Two things seem noteworthy, though. The first is that it sounds as though that particular projectile is a rarity and it is unlikely that the same thing would occur with other bullets. More noteworthy, I think, is the fact that the bullets never make it to the target and would never be found with a pool of molten lead leaking from the jacket.
BTW, escape velocity for the shuttle to low earth orbit at about 80 miles above the surface and is also at or above 17,500 MPH. And that is why your bullets fall to earth... ???
One thing I find odd, is that snipers all over the world are sustaining killing hits on enemy combatants at well over 1000 yards. If all the bullets were melting the lead out of them, these bullets would never even make it to the intended targets much less penetrate causing traumatic injury or death.
I agree, maybe these particular bullets that melted were out of spec, melted in a fire, or whatever.
Apples to oranges.
3000 fps and those long,sleek bullets require high twist rates to stabilize them. At 8" twist that bullet spins at 270,000 rpm as it leaves the barrel The whole core doesn't need to be liquid to cause a problem. It just comes apart with the first shift in center of gravity. The bullet in barrel time is around 1.5 milliseconds.
Compare to 1300 fps, 16 twist barrel, .5 ms time in barrel, around 60,000 rpm for a typical 10mm pistol.
The melting force is friction with the barrel, not re-entry type air friction. I doubt the core melting in a pistol barrel.
Greg
Here is an article that mentions heat build up from friction in the bore and atmosphere as a cause of bullet failures.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/bullet-failure-article-20778/
What comes to mind for me is these are rifle bullets being taken to the extreme of higher RPM's from higher rates of twist. Toward the end of the article it seems they almost touched on the possible cause but then dismissed what they started to consider as the upsetting cause.
QuotePoor bullet fabrication such as too low or too high seating pressure. Low seating pressure can create a poor mechanical bond and/or air pockets that further destabilize the bullet. Seating pressure that is too high effects the copper jacket by producing a weakness where the nose can separate from the body. These conditions can be most easily detected by weighing your bullets, as too low or too high seating pressure is mostly the result of an extreme change in the mass of the lead.
Other examples of poor fabrication are any excessive lube on the cores (many bullet makers do not clean their cores before bullets are swaged) or debris between the jacket and the core can produce a weak bond, air pockets and/or significant stability issues through poor balance around the axis. Another poor fabrication condition that is easiest to avoid is lead that contains debris or significant air pockets due to double extrusion. This condition does not exist when a quality source of lead is used. Quality bullet manufacturers of which there are many can avoid all of these fabrication conditions.
In my opinion it is possible they are revving up these bullets with the high rates of twist, thus increasing the heat induced by bore contact, as the bullet is forced down the bore at higher velocity rates. To me the heat along with the higher rate of twist is loosening the the bond of the core to the inside of the jacket, therefore even more heat is produced as the jackets begin to revolve around the core. At some point the jacket is spinning wildly but the core has become plastic or possibly to a molten state, with deteriorating gyroscopic/centrifugal stability to the point of being steered off course or even self destructing.
We are talking about seriously high velocity and high RPM's, smaller diameter bullets with thinner jackets. What may be needed is a jacket that is better attached to its core, so that the core is being spun equally as the outside jacket.
However this is where the solid copper or solid brass projectiles would shine, as they have no core to separate or become molten. ;D
They could technically design an extruded jacket with an hexagonal or octogonal interior that might eliminate the jacket from revolving around the core... ::)
So it comes down to economics ($$$) as those guys push the limits of bullet design technology!
BTW, I actually sent this crazy notion of mine to Eric Strecker of Berger Bullets what they do with the info is up to them...
I'm with you on your conclusions, Shadow.
I was using the article to show that it and many others mention that friction caused by the bullets passing rapidly through the air does create heat build up.
But bullet failures seem to be caused by dynamic stress on the jacket caused by high RPM's and heat causing the core to increase in plasticity.
It seems clear from that article, at least, that air friction is not likely to cause any significant heat at normal velocities. The source of heat is from burning propellant and friction in the barrel.
He seemed to get some messed up readings. Did the Glock experience some unlocking? I have no idea on the 900 FPS one...
That was interesting that the round experienced that much difference, Was it a short on powder load? Looking at the gel block of that shot it showed less energy to match the lower velocity...
Could it have been a poor ignition of the heavily compressed powder charge, yes Powder Pistol is a fast burning powder, but at the amount of compression, it may not have ignited all of the powder and could have blown most of the compressed pellet of powder out the barrel. Look real close at the video at 1.24 and watch the pieces flying after the bullet strike, several big pieces of debris (possibly the pieces of the unburned compressed powder) come flying into the picture... :o
Why didn't I get any with the Buffalo Bore or the COP rounds with this load?
The bullet may have been a loose fit and moved before the powder was fully involved...hey just a W.A.G. :-[ Wild Ass Guess
Strange things can happen, those pellets of powder they use for muzzle loaders have been known to come flying out like roman candles! Even though the were burning they didn't burn correctly to add to the bullets momentum...
His gel test gave similar results to Raggedyman's. His velocity average was 1123 FPS where I averaged 1104 FPS.
Awesome. Thanks for posting. Nice to see some other folks doing testing in 10mm. I'm also interested in seeing how the Clear Ballistics media compares to gelatin with higher velocity rounds. It seems very consistent with gelatin at service pistol velocities but I've seen a couple tests with some discrepancy compared to gelatin with higher velocities. That could easily be a statistical anomaly. It will be interesting to see as the data set gets bigger.
We even see some variance when they do 5 shot tests. Not all bullets loaded are perfect it seems.
There are a lot of internal and external variables that are bound to cause some variation. I'll see if I can find examples but I think I remember seeing a clear gel test done with rifle ammo or high velocity pistol ammo that produced results dramatically different from a gelatin test. I have no idea what it was, though.
I think there are two important bullets in that 155 10mm load that might prove to work in terms of penetration. That would be the factory Hornandy 155 in the high 1200's and Georgia Arms 155 Speer JHP at 1375. I do have the 155 G/A's. So we have the Underwood at 1500 not hitting the mark and low velocity as well.
Found one. tnoutdoors9's (http://youtu.be/OkUm7iegNbM (http://youtu.be/OkUm7iegNbM)) test of Underwood 10mm 135 gr Nosler in clear gel produced 10.5" of penetration. My own test (http://youtu.be/fIya7tdvERI (http://youtu.be/fIya7tdvERI)) of the same load produced 7.9". Velocities were similar. Neither of us conducted enough tests to determine whether those results are normal statistical variation but 2 1/2" is a pretty big variation. I noted a couple others over the last couple years, too. When there was a difference between clear gel and gelatin, it was always with very high velocity pistol ammo or rifle ammo. The results from clear gel seems to be consistent with gelatin with lower velocity pistol ammo, including more moderate 10mm. That 135 gr load was 1,560 fps.
MrGunsngear (http://youtu.be/yF89dysghUs (http://youtu.be/yF89dysghUs)) got 25" of penetration from Hornady 7.62x39mm 123 gr SST and I got 16.7" from the same bullet at the same velocity. (http://youtu.be/_Jn6GiiVrcM (http://youtu.be/_Jn6GiiVrcM))
I'm not trying to be critical for the sake of being critical, either. It is certainly possible that the variation is normal. I have the utmost respect for tnoutdoors9 and Mrgunsngear and I appreciate anybody who invests their time and money in ballistic testing, especially cartridges and loads that don't see a lot of professional testint. Maybe someone else can find some tests at or above 1,500 fps that can confirm or refute my suspicion.
10mm Double Tap 165 gr Golden Saber video link (http://"http://youtu.be/ojQG4tZCiFE")
10mm Double Tap 165 gr Golden Saber fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I forgot the denim on this test. Sorry. Penetration with denim is typically slightly greater than without. The Golden Saber is not known for having trouble expanding after passing through heavy clothing and the additional velocity of the 10mm further encourages expansion.
BB calibration: 598.5 fps, 3.0"
Impact velocity: 1,298 fps
Penetration: 13.7"
Retained weight: 139.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.783"
Min Expansion: 0.517"
One extra shot over the chronograph measured 1,286 fps.
As reflected in the retained weight, there was substantial fragmentation and although the jacket and core were not detached from each other, the only thing holding them together was the gelatin itself. The jacket pulled away from the core as I removed them from the gelatin. The two fragments seen in the pic were recovered immediately next to the bullet so they were included in the retained weight figure.
I added another shot that I haven't done on previous tests. It shows the split wound track, side by side, with the bullet in place at the end. This exaggerates the appearance of the wound but gives a better view of where the fragments were lost along the track. Let me know what you think so I know whether to include that shot in future videos.
10mm 195 gr Mihec (shallow pin) over 8.0 gr 800X video link (http://"http://youtu.be/KqeGhBnuGdU")
10mm 195 gr Mihec (shallow pin) over 8.0 gr 800X fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin. I omitted the denim because this is intended as a woods load.
BB calibration: 598.5 fps, 3.0"
Impact velocity: 1,166 fps
Penetration: 14.1"
Retained weight: 196.8 gr
Max expansion: 0.698"
Min expansion: 0.657"
Additional velocity numbers are:
1,141 fps
1,119 fps
1,148 fps
Raggedyman...look at that load data for the MiHec... 80 Grains! :o
I know you meant 8.0 grains, the program may not have recognized the period format. ::)
I use Tardis brass. ;)
I have to say im not a fan of omitting denim as that is explicitly described for handgun ballistic testing. They only omit the denim for rifle tests. I think the denim helps with a couple situations, first it allows an equal playing field for evaluation, two I think it replicates fur or skin that may delay opening or expansion. These are my opinions.
Thanks for the tests that 195gr mihec is a beast!
Actually, a proper battery of tests includes bare gel, heavy clothing (IWBA and/or FBI standard), sheet metal, auto glass, plywood, and wallboard.
The omission of the denim in the Golden Saber test was an and denim would have likely resulted in a bit more penetration. It's unlikely it would have made any difference in the Mihec test.
I use GA Arms 180 FMJ for range ammo in my new Kimber and an old G20 (Gen 1?). I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??
Welcome to the forum Old Soldier, Even the first G-20's were 2nd generation Glocks, they lacked chamber support around the feed ramp and up the sides a little, but fed anything and everything...
Hornady 175gr Cabela's Exclusive
Quote from: Oldsoldier 69 on July 12 2014 08:21:43 PM MDT
I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??
I use DoubleTap JHP Noslers: 150gr, 180gr, and 200gr, alternating in each mag.
Quote from: Oldsoldier 69 on July 12 2014 08:21:43 PM MDT
I use GA Arms 180 FMJ for range ammo in my new Kimber and an old G20 (Gen 1?). I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??
Two best recommendations in my opinion.
180 grain Federal Vital-Shok Trophy Bonded
155 grain Buffalo Bore TAC-XP
The 175 gr Hornady load tested very well. Most 165 gr JHP loaded to around 1,300 fps performs well, too. Underwood sells a 165 gr Gold Dot that tested well. If you're looking for a woods defense load, 200 gr XTP does well at around 1,200 fps.
I wouldn't buy anything from Double Tap due to their lying to customers.
Quote from: Oldsoldier 69 on July 12 2014 08:21:43 PM MDT
I use GA Arms 180 FMJ for range ammo in my new Kimber and an old G20 (Gen 1?). I am seeking advice to stock up on SD ammo for both pistols. Recommendations??
I would recommend the new Federal 180 gr JSP, Underwood 165 grain gold dot, UW 200 grain nosler.
Quote from: Raggedyman on July 14 2014 11:21:19 AM MDT
I wouldn't buy anything from Double Tap due to their lying to customers.
Well they made a step in the right direction changing the barrel length to 5"+ ;D I figure when they get the flap rating based on the Javelina 7" barrel we will really be in the ballpark :o
Right? Of course, they COULD just print the ACTUAL velocity achieved with a service length 4.5" barrel like Underwood does.
10mm PROGRADE 125 and 140 Grain Barnes TAC-XP :
Nice. Thanks for posting. The 140 gr test produced results very consistent with my own 140 gr TAC-XP test. A 1" difference in penetration is statistically irrelevant. That is encouraging. I've been concerned that Cleargel can sometimes yield results that are not consistent with gelatin. It appears that at least at this velocity, Cleargel is roughly consistent with gelatin. I'm still concerned that at 1,500 fps or faster, the differences seem to open up but I only have a couple of data points to compare at those velocities. If anyone else can come up with some high velocity comparisons between Cleargel and gelatin, I'd like to see them. I would love to stop messing around with gelatin and move to the Cleargel.
ETA: just realized that was a 140 gr and I tested 155 gr at the same velocity. Theoretically, the 155 gr should have gone deeper. Same design, same velocity, different mass (and sectional density). That might still be within the normal range of variation for the two loads, especially if the 155 gr shot was near the lower limit and the 140 gr shot was near the upper limit, but I find myself questioning the accuracy of Cleargel again. Any other opinions?
Hadnt seen this mentioned but he did those 125 and 140 barnes prograde testong from a g29 with factory barrel. Lost a bunch of velocity but performed well, however no better than 40 cal rounds.
The Prograde performance looked pretty decent to me particularly when considering the 3.7" barrel.
Off top of head can't recall exactly source however, have seen some testing between FBI protocol ballistic gelatin and Cleargel. Head to head, seemed Cleargel allowed approximately 10% deeper penetration. Was "comparable" but not identical.
I'm not sure, but I *think* it might be velocity dependent. The results from service caliber pistol ammo seems to be generally consistent with gelatin but when I tested Hornady 7.62x39mm 123 gr SST, I got a full 10" less penetration than Mrgunsngear. There seems to be some significant variation in 10mm and .357 loads once you get past 1,300 or 1,500 fps but I'm not really sure.
Quote from: Raggedyman on July 24 2014 10:56:07 AM MDT
Nice. Thanks for posting. The 140 gr test produced results very consistent with my own 140 gr TAC-XP test. A 1" difference in penetration is statistically irrelevant. That is encouraging. I've been concerned that Cleargel can sometimes yield results that are not consistent with gelatin. It appears that at least at this velocity, Cleargel is roughly consistent with gelatin. I'm still concerned that at 1,500 fps or faster, the differences seem to open up but I only have a couple of data points to compare at those velocities. If anyone else can come up with some high velocity comparisons between Cleargel and gelatin, I'd like to see them. I would love to stop messing around with gelatin and move to the Cleargel.
ETA: just realized that was a 140 gr and I tested 155 gr at the same velocity. Theoretically, the 155 gr should have gone deeper. Same design, same velocity, different mass (and sectional density). That might still be within the normal range of variation for the two loads, especially if the 155 gr shot was near the lower limit and the 140 gr shot was near the upper limit, but I find myself questioning the accuracy of Cleargel again. Any other opinions?
Came across article on Pocket Guns & Gear Blog where he discusses clear gel & Charles Schwartz Quantitative Ammunition Selection and his work.
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-continuing-evolution-of-terminal.html
Know you not particularly interested in material found on Blog; and in general I agree but but I found this information interesting so I'll share.
By the way Pocket's test of Buffalo Bore 155 TAC-XP in clear gel very, very similar to yours and nearly exact when utilizing Charles Schwartz's mathematical models.
I haven't had time to read all the way through yet but the article load really interesting. I had heard that water was supposed to cause slightly greater expansion than is normal in tissue or gelatin.
I'm not surprised that the TAC-XP performed about the same in gelatin and clear gel. It looks like it is very consistent with gelatin at typical pistol velocity. It is only at higher velocity that there seems to be a discrepancy and I'm not even convinced that is the case.
Can I request a 200gr xtp underwood tested in real gel with 4 layer heavy denim? It didnt penetrate as much as I thought it would in tnoutdoors9 test. Also just a standard hornady custom factory load 180 and 200gr xtp would be nice. Or roughly 1180 fps in the 180gr and 1080fps in the 200gr.
200 XTP at Underwood velocity (1200 FPS). This is the PBR version, but same bullet and par velocity:
Raggedyman has versions of the other two when he can get to them. It seems the 200 XTP won't really expand at speeds under 1175 FPS.
Quote from: mag360 on August 16 2014 12:10:11 AM MDT
Can I request a 200gr xtp underwood tested in real gel with 4 layer heavy denim? It didnt penetrate as much as I thought it would in tnoutdoors9 test. Also just a standard hornady custom factory load 180 and 200gr xtp would be nice. Or roughly 1180 fps in the 180gr and 1080fps in the 200gr.
Hunter published a fantastic article on Hornady 10mm XTP ammo performance in clear gel.
http://rangehot.com/10mm-ballistic-gel-test-with-hornady-ammo/
RaggededyMan, that 135gr Miyhec looks like it turned inside out. Great video, thanks for posting.
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/135MiyHec_zpsda16ef3e.jpg)
Yeah, that was nuts. Here are a couple better quality pics:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/33okznm.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/rvg0up.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/21d06qf.jpg)
(Is there an echo in here?) ;)
Yeah I saw hunters test. That 180 xtp looked mean in that. I was just hoping for a ballistic gelatin test not a clear ballistics test.
I was actually planning to do the Hornady factory 180 gr XTP test yesterday when my buddy talked me into testing the 135 gr Mihec. Maybe I can do that one next time. In the mean time, I did do the 180 gr XTP at 1,290 fps (factory 180 gr XTP chronos at 1,155 fps). I think that was the first gelatin test I did, actually.
How do you guys like the addition of the water portion? Is it fun? Stupid? Waste of time?
If it isn't stupid or annoying, I hope to start building up a library of water vs. gelatin tests to hopefully give a rough approximation of penetration depth in water vs. gelatin. The whole 1.6-1.8 factor (water:gelatin) is clearly not linear but with enough data points, maybe we can develop an idea of what the curve looks like.
The water jugs are neat to see in person and especially on camera. I can see where it would present a situation of hauling even more stuff out to the range and back as not to leave junk lying around! ??? Being able to see the hydraulic/cavitation and exploding jug effect is very interesting! :o The water is hard on the projectiles, sometimes they will yaw and/or exit out the side or strike the bottom.
If ever I get the CONEX container range established, I may switch to "jello shots" for bullet capture. Till then I use the water jugs... ::)
Cool. If you've shot into water some of the same loads I've tested in gelatin, I'd be interested to hear the results.
Chopnbloc/raggedyman did that 180gr xtp hornady custom really go over the chrono at 80fps faster than advertising velocity? I thought I remembered it was 1180fps on the box.
It appears so. I was surprised myself. It was warm and warm weather can produce higher velocity but it's a pretty big difference.
Damn good load right out of the box, imo!! thanks for posting that.
Quote from: Raggedyman on August 25 2014 10:17:28 AM MDT
It appears so. I was surprised myself. It was warm and warm weather can produce higher velocity but it's a pretty big difference.
What's you're barrel length again? Hunter got 1162 and TNOUTDOORS9 got 1155 (glock 20) on their test of this load. Box says 1180.
Maybe Hornady juicing them up a little after emergence of Underwood, PBR, etc...
Where did this one come from?
4.5"
Wife bought them locally about a year and a half ago.
Now I'm starting to second guess myself. Maybe somehow I put reloads in the box and forgot. I don't really do that sort of thing but I suppose anything is possible. Maybe an erroneous chrono reading but the two velocities were very close to each other.
Thank you! The re test confirms that the 175gr 10mm is actually a shallow penetrator vs the standard 40 cal version as it matches your previous numbers almost exactly. Also the all coppers did well amd performed similar to other tests ive seen. I really appreciate all the time it takes to do these. :D
He has a couple more to bump up the velocity with. Let's see if it changes anything!
More great test! Thanks! ;D I like those TAC XP bullets, but they are on the pricey side.
Where as the G2 RIP are even higher priced and they mentioned they will have the 10mm ammo coming out very soon! I just don't think that they will be all that as the shed the trocars. They posted a pictures of X-Rays where they took a hog with a 9mm. Showing the trocars spread throughout the chest cavity. I would have rather seen a video of the effects as it happened and how humane the kill was. ???
Gimmick ammo. Shooting the bull did a gelatin test of it and showed it to be about the same performance as a couple .22s but with shallower penetration.
Raggedyman, my feelings exactly about the G2 RIP ammo...I still like the 156gr Devastators for what they bring to the party, they make their own fragments and cost nearly nothing to make! ;D
Just remember that I only tested one shot at one velocity. It's possible that the one shot I made was a statistical anomaly or that it only functions that way within a narrow velocity window. It could be that 20 feet further down range, the expanded portion doesn't break off and the projectile stops short with poor penetration.
Still pretty cool but fragmentation is a really unpredictable mechanism.
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 07 2014 08:50:27 AM MDT
Where as the G2 RIP are even higher priced and they mentioned they will have the 10mm ammo coming out very soon! I just don't think that they will be all that as the shed the trocars. They posted a pictures of X-Rays where they took a hog with a 9mm. Showing the trocars spread throughout the chest cavity. I would have rather seen a video of the effects as it happened and how humane the kill was. ???
Decent amount of INDEPENDENT testing of overhyped G2 RIP ammo available: none of it impressive. Trocars usually penetrate 3 or 4" in gel and the (approx .22 cal) small slug carries on like FMJ.
Even the concept of "proof of performance" they're attempting to portray as described by Shadow is simply ridiculous. Not much to killing caged or tied up pig (easily accomplished even with a .22). As for actually hunting wild hog of almost any size with a 9mm.... It would be wise to have a trauma kit and a paramedic on hand.
What would be of interest to me would be a test of the Rainier Played hollow points, but at different speeds. Rainier says, like Berry's, not to load over 1250fps.
So, it would be interesting to me to see what the round does at say, 1100fps+/- , 1200fps+/- and 1300fps +/-
I have a fresh box of rainiers I could donate about 25 for the testing. I would offer powder, but sadly, I have a quarter pound or so left of longshot and no other real pistol powders (imr4227 is my next fastest powder)
Did you view the Atomic Ammo video of the 180gr Hex Plated?
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on September 09 2014 01:58:15 PM MDT
... sadly, I have a quarter pound or so left of longshot and no other real pistol powders (imr4227 is my next fastest powder)
I hear ya. I need some 1680 to kick off my 300 blackout load party. Can't be had locally, and I don't wanna pay a hazmat fee on a lb of powder.
Quote from: Intercooler on September 09 2014 03:46:07 PM MDT
Did you view the Atomic Ammo video of the 180gr Hex Plated?
Yes which is what piqued my interest. In the atomic load, it fragmented pretty good from what I interpreted. I don't want a fragmented hollow point. If the testing shows 1200 is the sweet spot, then cool, if it shows that one out of 5 rounds fragments at 1300, even better, but if 1100 offers good penetration past 12 inches and opens well, it would be good to know to save some grains of powder.
Most of the non-mainstream HP's seem to fragment or come apart at 10mm velocity. If you are looking for a component bullet you might want to look at the Montana Gold or Sierra Power Jacket:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/432339/sierra-sports-master-bullets-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto-400-diameter-180-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100
I'm fairly impressed with the 155g Montana Gold video. For the price of that bullet that is pretty decent, but I question if the shot to shot consistency would measure up.
Greg
That's a very good point. Sometimes bullets can behave erratically and a one shot test might not show the whole picture. I think this test might be fairly representative of what this bullet does because it is consistent with the test of 165 gr Montana Gold in which I tested three shots.
I'm always willing to accept bullets or factory ammo for testing so long as the sender knows that might be a very time before i get to it, if ever. Intercooler and Shadow can attest to how long it takes me to get around to it. If that's okay with you, seems me a pm and I'll give you my address.
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 30 2013 09:40:08 AM MST
Maybe we need a Factory Ammo needed post in the effort to fill in the gaps of what's no longer available.
Examples;
Elite Ammo any and all bullet weights
SwampFox's various bullet weights... 165, 155, 135
I have swamp fox ammo 175 gr silvertips at 1360, 180 gr gold dots at 1320 and 200 gr xtp at 1240
sgtbones, I sent you a PM for documentation considerations.
Quote from: mag360 on March 01 2014 06:26:00 AM MST
I wish the 10mm hornady had gone about 16". im surprised it didnt since expansion was about .65 avg. current carry load in g20sf though.
Is this your 2 legged defense load.
I think this is pre-edit footage. It looked to go the distance and the bullet looked good. If 1329 was the velocity, it eclipsed what I received by a good bit. Maybe I should toss a couple more over next time to verify?
Quote from: Intercooler on November 16 2014 05:48:44 AM MST
I think this is pre-edit footage. It looked to go the distance and the bullet looked good. If 1329 was the velocity, it eclipsed what I received by a good bit. Maybe I should toss a couple more over next time to verify?
I was a little closer to the chrono than usual. It may have been an error. What was your velocity?
I know you have many more different ones to go but... how do you like these compared to Gold Dots and XTP's?
Those Golden Sabers are bad to the bone! ;D
I think I have about 500 165's loaded...
Date- March 28, 2001
Caliber-10-MM
Powder-Blue Dot 11.0grs
Case- Winchester Nickel
Primer-Winchester –WLP
Bullet-Remington 165 grain
BJHP - .400" Dia.
Golden Saber Hollow Point
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/Goldensaberinfo_zps375795f7.png)
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/Gldsadb_zps27e9dd40.jpg)
I didn't think these were bonded? I know they make a bonded version on some calibers, but not sure on the 10mm bullets.
Quote from: Intercooler on November 19 2014 02:58:47 PM MST
I know you have many more different ones to go but... how do you like these compared to Gold Dots and XTP's?
What's not to like? Good penetration, huge expansion, and great weight retention. To be honest, I haven't seen many loads that didn't perform well in 10mm
Nice! Cool to see more people testing 10mm.
Quote from: Raggedyman on January 02 2015 01:40:30 PM MST
I like the Sonoran cactus in the background of the side shot.
Almost 26" of penetration...
Based on all the other 10mm balistic testing you've done; how would you compare the wound track or permanent cavity of this projectile to others (gold dot, barnes, nosler, xtp, etc, etc)?
The cavity left in the clay was scary.
Looked a lot like other 10mm and .357 mag bullets that didn't expand. Maybe a little more cutting but nothing really impressive. Went pretty deep to be sure, but a heavier FMJ or hard cast would probably go a lot deeper. I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing this would do better than other loads is penetrate soft armor or hard barriers.
Also, remember that the clay is not a ballistic media on its own. Its only purpose is to provide a yielding backer to the vest so that if the bullet is stopped, it can show you a snapshot of how far the back face of the armor deformed. When bullets pass through clay, it moves out of the way and stays there, whereas gelatin and tissue stretch and return to shape. Gelatin will show cracks where it stretched too far but tissue can stretch much farther without damage.
Appreciate the extra insight. Based on a review of several of your tests, it's hard to tell how the permanent cavity compared (diameter and cavitation length) to other projectiles.
You were quit clear about superior performance against soft armor/barrier.
However as a hunting projectile in 10mm; do you like these more, less or the same as a 200 or 220 grain (large meplat) hard-cast?
Bottom line in YOUR opinion: Worth the extra money vs. conventional hard-cast for hunting?
Thanks again.
Just my opinion but for really large game you'd want the 200 or 220 grain hardcast. These would be better for deer or hogs.
Quote from: Rojo27 on January 25 2015 02:52:33 PM MST
Appreciate the extra insight. Based on a review of several of your tests, it's hard to tell how the permanent cavity compared (diameter and cavitation length) to other projectiles.
You were quit clear about superior performance against soft armor/barrier.
However as a hunting projectile in 10mm; do you like these more, less or the same as a 200 or 220 grain (large meplat) hard-cast?
Bottom line in YOUR opinion: Worth the extra money vs. conventional hard-cast for hunting?
Thanks again.
I think I'd prefer the heavier bullet for hunting or large animal defense unless a flat trajectory was a priority.
The crush cavity is generally about as wide as the actual projectile.
Quote from: Raggedyman on January 25 2015 02:04:23 PM MST
Looked a lot like other 10mm and .357 mag bullets that didn't expand. Maybe a little more cutting but nothing really impressive. Went pretty deep to be sure, but a heavier FMJ or hard cast would probably go a lot deeper. I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing this would do better than other loads is penetrate soft armor or hard barriers.
Also, remember that the clay is not a ballistic media on its own. Its only purpose is to provide a yielding backer to the vest so that if the bullet is stopped, it can show you a snapshot of how far the back face of the armor deformed. When bullets pass through clay, it moves out of the way and stays there, whereas gelatin and tissue stretch and return to shape. Gelatin will show cracks where it stretched too far but tissue can stretch much farther without damage.
Raggedyman,
Have you done enough testing with WFN hard cast bullets to tell whether there is actually much of a difference in its wound channel than the wound channel of a typical flat nose fmj 10mm range load? Given that both bullets hold together, do you think that a WFN is that much better than a fmj?
Going through meat and bone? The big Meplat of the Hardcast will do more damage. This video might help you too:
Some of the heavy weights fired from the Mechtech.
https://youtu.be/9jIuNgm1C3c
Quote from: DAVIDF on March 10 2015 10:26:26 AM MDT
Quote from: Raggedyman on January 25 2015 02:04:23 PM MST
Looked a lot like other 10mm and .357 mag bullets that didn't expand. Maybe a little more cutting but nothing really impressive. Went pretty deep to be sure, but a heavier FMJ or hard cast would probably go a lot deeper. I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing this would do better than other loads is penetrate soft armor or hard barriers.
Also, remember that the clay is not a ballistic media on its own. Its only purpose is to provide a yielding backer to the vest so that if the bullet is stopped, it can show you a snapshot of how far the back face of the armor deformed. When bullets pass through clay, it moves out of the way and stays there, whereas gelatin and tissue stretch and return to shape. Gelatin will show cracks where it stretched too far but tissue can stretch much farther without damage.
Raggedyman,
Have you done enough testing with WFN hard cast bullets to tell whether there is actually much of a difference in its wound channel than the wound channel of a typical flat nose fmj 10mm range load? Given that both bullets hold together, do you think that a WFN is that much better than a fmj?
No, sir, I couldn't say for sure. If I were to speculate, I'd say that the EP does about the same amount of actual cutting as anything with a nice, flat meplat.
It says the video is private?
Sorry. I though it could still be viewed. It is scheduled to publish on Friday but I thought I'd give you guys a sneak peak. On my phone now but I'll figure something out later.
Edit: Okay, well, I'm retarded. I thought that if I scheduled the publish date you could still watch it if you had the link, like an unlisted video. Then I thought I could just upload a duplicate and set it as unlisted so the members here could see it. Can't do that because YouTube won't allow duplicate videos. I fail at uploading/publishing today.
Well, now it's live. Sorry for the confusion.
Since I'm new both to this forum and to the 10mm. Looks like I'm going to be reading 28 pages of this thread today. Thanks for all of the hard work!
Ok, I've gone through everything and have some questions.
1) I currently have some Underwood 180gr XTP that I had planned on keeping for SD. From reading, I may need to save this for hunting as over-penetration could be an issue is a urban setting?
2) Has anyone ever done any testing on Freedom Munitions to know if their advertised velocities are close? http://www.freedommunitions.com/10mm-180-gr-JHP-New-p/fm10j180n-b0050.htm#
Quote from: Raggedyman on March 30 2015 12:14:50 PM MDT
You can actually see the bullet exit the block and bounce off the water jug (obvious that little energy remained). Did you find it?
Might be decent for varmint shooting but certainly wouldn't recommend for personal defense against anything bigger than that.
Rojo, I did not see the bullet and I had a tarp down. I'm pretty sure that was just a piece of gelatin that you see on the video.
shaneshot, I'm not much of a believer in over penetration being an issue. Take a look at the master sheet (below) that intercooler put together. If you're worried about penetration, take a look at 165 gr Gold Dot or Golden Saber.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=8&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=8&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250)
Well there are lots of variables between tests by different standards. That being said, there's one with the Underwood 180gr XTP that was going almost too fast allowing separation and penetrated 18". Very drastic, in a good way, I just don't want to have to worry too much about what it'll go thru and hit. Again, I'm learning and without real world flesh and bone, it's hard to know exactly.
My tests are not scientific but are performed using real gelatin and, unless otherwise noted, they all calibrate within standard and the calibration results are given in the description. Gelatin does not simulate bone, but according to experts who have examined actual bullet wounds in real people, it correlates very strongly with penetration and expansion results in human soft tissue.
The FBI recommends 12"-18" of penetration. While there are numerous accounts of bad guys who were not stopped due to inadequate penetration, I know of no cases where an innocent person was struck by a bullet that was fired in lawful self defense and passed through a bad guy.
Sorry raggedy, didn't mean your tests. I meant as far as comparing to others. You've tired your best to make them all standardized with known protocols. Others that I've seen may or may not have, that's what I was referring to. I also realize there is no perfect answer without knowing the exact scenario and placement. Now that you mention it, I'm unaware of any damaging 'pass-throughs'. Thanks again!
Regardless, every gun owned in the world owes you big time for your efforts. Your library of data is great!
And even if the Glock board allows what they want, by who they want... we are EXTREMELY HAPPY to have you here posting and testing away! 8)
Quote10mm gel test: Liberty 60 gr Fragmenting Monolithic Copper Hollow Point
It leaves a large primary cavity, but it seems too shallow. I also think the fact that the bullet veers off course makes it not worthwhile as a self defense round. If you aim at a vital organ, the bullets decides to take a detour to Bum Fudge Egypt.
.
Thank you for the encouragement, guys.
If you ever need more of a certain type just let me know.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 04 2015 07:06:43 PM MDT
Regardless, every gun owned in the world owes you big time for your efforts. Your library of data is great!
- BIG TIME +1
Quote from: Intercooler on April 05 2015 03:49:04 AM MDT
If you ever need more of a certain type just let me know.
Maybe we should ask if members would like to see a retest or more detailed test for any of them.
I had inquired about testing some of freedom munitions offerings and supplied a link on the previous page. It's a known bullit and we know pretty much from extrapolation what it'll do if they meet velocity. I'm more curious on the chrony to see if they meet the advertised 1100fps.
Quote from: Raggedyman on April 05 2015 08:57:42 AM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on April 05 2015 03:49:04 AM MDT
If you ever need more of a certain type just let me know.
Maybe we should ask if members would like to see a retest or more detailed test for any of them.
Been a lot of discussion recently about Lehigh Defense extreme penetrator and you've individually tested it and 200gr hardcast in 10mm. At some point in the future; I'd be interested in side by side comparison (same block if possible). Perhaps similar side by side format test of other popular self defense rounds would be cool too.
I'd like to revisit the 220 gr hard cast.
If you have anything you would like more of just PM me. I probably still have more of it.
I will send the new V-Crowns by Sig this upcoming week.
OK.
Don't forget about this test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_at-gHYVmk
An old round but a good one.
Man, can't wait to see how those V-Crowns do.
Cool shootingthebull410 10mm, Double Tap 165 grain Gold Dot test.
Quote from: Rojo27 on April 18 2015 02:23:02 PM MDT
Cool shootingthebull410 10mm, Double Tap 165 grain Gold Dot test.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ofCgLKpqt7c
Very nice performance.
They advertise 1400 fps out of a 5 inch barrel:
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=134&product_id=591
It's fairly close, and looks like it pushes the bullet to edge.
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 18 2015 04:22:57 PM MDT
Quote from: Rojo27 on April 18 2015 02:23:02 PM MDT
Cool shootingthebull410 10mm, Double Tap 165 grain Gold Dot test.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ofCgLKpqt7c
Very nice performance.
They advertise 1400 fps out of a 5 inch barrel:
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=134&product_id=591
It's fairly close, and looks like it pushes the bullet to edge.
How does the Nosler bullet compare?
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on April 18 2015 04:28:09 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on April 18 2015 04:22:57 PM MDT
Quote from: Rojo27 on April 18 2015 02:23:02 PM MDT
Cool shootingthebull410 10mm, Double Tap 165 grain Gold Dot test.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ofCgLKpqt7c
Very nice performance.
They advertise 1400 fps out of a 5 inch barrel:
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=134&product_id=591
It's fairly close, and looks like it pushes the bullet to edge.
How does the Nosler bullet compare?
In gel? I haven't seen it tested in 165 grain but I don't believe the Nosler is a bonded bullet.
Fixed the video.
Outstanding! Glad to see him start testing 10mm.
Hey Raggedyman,
Quite a few of us have been waiting for this test, thanks for doing it!
Couple observations and questions about your assessment of this projectile (and ammo).
-1430 fps good bit slower than Intercoller's result. Intercoller published mid 1550's fps or so I think, with his 4.75" EAA. What is the barrel length of your test gun again?
-Pretty impressive wound channel with significant shrapnel and 19"+ total penetration..... But at $1.90 PER ROUND! At that price point what does it give that other fine and less expensive options don't?
If money were no object: what does it do that nothing else does? Would you carry it and in what application?
Thanks!
I can send one across again tomorrow to see what it gives.
4.5" bbl
I don't think it's really that great at anything. I'd you wanted something to drive deep, a 220 gr hard cast will go deeper. If you want something to really jack up the first few inches, a 135 gr JHP will do more damage. On the other hand, it does seem to jack things up pretty well and penetrate pretty well. Maybe a short of Swiss Army round.
I know its just .25 ". Do you think the polygonal riffleling has something to do with this velocity deviation? As far as damage goes this gives you that 135 grain damage and a core to hit your vitals and even exit your body. Like having your cake and eating it.
No, it shouldn't make that much difference. Probably just a combination of a round on the low side of the statistical curve and the slightly reduced velocity from the slightly shorter barrel. It is also possible that the one I got was from a different batch. Hard to say without a five shot average.
That was interesting.
Kind of a non-standard 10mm load to test though.
I was just posting on FB about this...
Me
QuoteThe 10mm may have inverted on the heavy denim, thus no expansion. I never liked the 10mm Critical Defense projectile, the HP cavity needs to be wider and the angle should be steeper. I'd rather the Gold Dots!
QuoteEAA Firearms I think it was velocity related. Just doesn't work in a short barrel.
Me
QuoteThat too, need 800X to gain the velocity from short barrel
Critical defense 9mm typically fails to meet penetration standards and this is no exception. I recommend that everyone stay away from the critical defense line. The Critical Duty line is good to go, though. The 175 gr Critical Duty is one of a very few factory 10mm rounds that are really well suited to defense.
PPU and Doubletap 180gr Montana Gold
Anyone catch the crazy Doubletap ratings... 1305 FPS and the other side is 1136 FPS? LOL
Flip a coin ;)
What's the most recent velocity figure on the PPU stuff? Didn't they up their game since my test?
It's probably not intentional, but I thought I should point out that he refers to the gel as "gelatin" in the video and calls it "10% gel" in the description but it is obviously the Clearballistics product. That should still give a reasonably accurate result, but it won't be the same as real gelatin at higher velocities. Not trying to talk down the guy's work, just want to make sure that's out there.
I performed three 10mm gel tests yesterday (Sig V-Crown, OATH Halo, and DRT). As I finish the videos, I'll post them here but they'll remain unlisted until their scheduled publishing date. Feel free to share links to this forum/thread, but please do not share direct links to the videos until they are published. Thank you for your support and for being an awesome community.
Very nice video shoot! I spoke with Sierra Bullets and they are making the V Crown bullets for SIG Sauer.
Thanks!
Wow!
I didn't like the jacket separation (allllmmmmooosstt shed it's jacket) BUT results in ballistics gel were impressive as hell.
Thanks again for doing these (and sharing) tests Raggedyman!!!
Looks like a traditional cup and core design with scores. I'd say that it is generally a decent design given its ability to perform at 10mm velocity. Not many can keep up without fragmenting. Just a touch on the mild side for velocity, bit still respectable from a big manufacturer. Definitely not a
.40 +p load.
Thanks for the test. Hey guys is this our new self defense round ? And I wonder is this better than my Underwood 180 gr Delta Elite Gold Dot load at 1240 fps.
I thought it did very well but would like it to be closer to advertised velocity. Quite nice all the same though.
Looks about like it did when I tested it. I'm sure that adding the word "tactical" to the box increased the dynamic killification by a factor of eleventy, though.
very much a hype. Like the Taurus Judge.
The Sig round, would they be tested out of the 5" Sig giving advertised result? That's some nasty looking gel result.
Quote from: Raggedyman on November 12 2012 01:39:59 AM MST
Roger that. Four layers of denim is an IWBA protocol and there are a lot of bullets that don't do too well through it. Newer designs handle thick clothing much better. Obviously it wouldn't have made any difference with a soft point but I think it's a good idea to maintain consistency as much as I can.
I have yet to read the entire thread but guessing you haven't tested the new Le High 115 grain Penetrator load (10MM, 1700 FPS) ? Would love to see that..
Lyman 10MM Devastator mould #401638
Who was the source of this bullet for the (amazing) gel test? If it's not asking too much I'd like to beg one or two so I can order up a custom mold, since these molds seem to be unobtanium.. please PM me if you can help, and thanks in advance. Alternately if anyone has the technical/dimensional specs for the mold, that would work
Quote from: Raggedyman on September 13 2015 12:41:48 PM MDT
Perfect for SD purposes in populated areas and it is devastating on game more so than it shows in gel....
Quote from: Captain_Witness on January 17 2016 11:32:44 AM MST
Lyman 10MM Devastator mould #401638
Who was the source of this bullet for the (amazing) gel test? If it's not asking too much I'd like to beg one or two so I can order up a custom mold, since these molds seem to be unobtanium.. please PM me if you can help, and thanks in advance. Alternately if anyone has the technical/dimensional specs for the mold, that would work
Captain, The Lyman Devastator 156 gr 10mm/40 cal mold was discontinued several years ago. However there are mold makers that make HP designs and Erik of Hollow Point Mold service will modify and or repair molds.
Erik website; http://www.hollowpointmold.com/ (http://www.hollowpointmold.com/) here is a LEE mold he has instock; http://www.hollowpointmold.com/forsale/sale-pictures/?item=207 (http://www.hollowpointmold.com/forsale/sale-pictures/?item=207)
Never seen one of those before, Shadow, many thanks 8)
EDIT: I've ordered a 5 cavity Accurate Mold which I will send to Eric for a hollowpoint conversion. Should be close to the Devastator design. Will send some bullets to choppin' if he'll load them up and test 8)
Quote from: Ramjet on January 17 2016 03:07:56 PM MST
Quote from: Raggedyman on September 13 2015 12:41:48 PM MDT
Perfect for SD purposes in populated areas and it is devastating on game more so than it shows in gel....
Aboslutely not. The penetration is totally inadequate for any defensive purpose and inhumane for animals larger than a coyote.
Quote from: Raggedyman on February 11 2016 10:40:05 AM MST
This is a 125gr:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/oath-ammo-tango-125-grain-562015-pull-down/msg44557/#msg44557
I see they still never changed it on their site even after they told me it was indeed a 125gr. Nutty!
That's pretty funny. I'll double check the packaging and pull a bullet, but 125 gr makes sense.
I think the core came out the top of the block, because something hit the top of the jug...
Yeah, I saw that. Not sure if it was one of the "petals" or the core. In any case, I wouldn't count on it. Even if the core could go a perfect 14", if it takes a wonky curved path, that doesn't help you dig into the vitals of a bad guy.
They look like Montana Gold bullets...
Specifications: N10180HP250
Caliber: 10mm Auto
Bullet Type: Jacketed Hollow Point Projectile
Bullet Weight: 180 Grains
Muzzle Velocity: 1100fps
New Reloadable Brass Case
250 Loose Packed Rounds per Case
I think you have it pegged correctly.
I'm dying to see the 150gr nosler in a ballistic test. If anyone is willing to test it, I'll get a box of 150gr Underwood shipped to you. And yes, I made an account just to post this.
Quote from: BoostedBob on September 21 2016 11:38:58 AM MDT
I'm dying to see the 150gr nosler in a ballistic test.
Me too. For several years now, I've been alternating 150gr, 180gr, and 200gr DoubleTap Noslers in each of my mags for my 10mm Kimber Eclipse. And I've just ordered some 135gr DoubleTap Noslers to try out ... I might add them to the alternation if I like them.
Personally I'd like to see the Underwood 115gr Extreme Defenders. Going to do a Underwood buy tonight actually, Intercooler how many do you need to do a video?
Quote from: Raggedyman on February 11 2016 10:41:49 AM MST
Quote from: Ramjet on January 17 2016 03:07:56 PM MST
Quote from: Raggedyman on September 13 2015 12:41:48 PM MDT
Perfect for SD purposes in populated areas and it is devastating on game more so than it shows in gel....
Aboslutely not. The penetration is totally inadequate for any defensive purpose and inhumane for animals larger than a coyote.
Based on these gel tests-point taken....I carry 200 grain hard cast or 180 grain XTP as both have proven themselves on deer size game on numerous occasions with great results. SD unless bird hunting or woods walking is either My 1911 45 ACP Federal 230 grain or 1911 9MM loaded with 147 grain Federal. Thank you for all these tests they are great. If you need some plain base or HP from the Mihec mould PM me I will send them. Let me know and thanks for the work.
Somewhat hotter retest of PPU. This is the current offering... thanks Andrew!
Another clear ballistics test of the 10mm Hornady 175gr Critical Duty.
With & without denim.
It has gel... just behind Level 3 armor :o
Exactly what he said! ;D
Is their any pointed rifle tip we could fit in a 10mm cartridge?
With the casing being 0.988" and the cartridge overall length being 1.260" it only leaves 0.272" outside that can be tapered to a point.
The crimp needs to be on the actual 0.400" section then to a point regardless of bullet length or weight.
Is their anything legally where a MFG couldn't make one for sale? I bet Lehigh could make it!
You are the chopping block? Haha, small world. I think I've watched all those videos. Aren't you part of full 30.com too?
Quote from: Tic-Glock on November 29 2016 06:18:12 AM MST
You are the chopping block? Haha, small world. I think I've watched all those videos. Aren't you part of full 30.com too?
No Intercooler isn't Chopping Block, but Chopping Block is a member here on the forum...RaggedyMan.
However Intercooler has provided a bunch of stuff for the testing projects...
Whats your ideal velocities for thr 180 gr gold dot.
For personal protection? I honestly think that .40 S&W is excellent for that task so "weak" 10mm loads are fine. I believe that the cost in muzzle blast and recoil isn't worth the gain in terminal effect for human targets. It's a lot more useful for woods defense.
Winchester 10mm 200gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics Gel
(https://i.imgur.com/BwGPRLTl.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 10MM 200gr Black Talon SXT.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Gel Temperature: 70 degrees.
I remember when Winchester made the decision to discontinue the Black Talon line because of political pressure by people who vilified the round and made it sound like the deadliest bullet ever invented. People like Democrat Patrick Moynihan who described it as a buzz saw ripping through you on TV. So Winchester decided the best course of action was to stop making it. Of course, they really didn't stop making them, they just removed the black coating and renamed it. But before they were all gone I went to my favorite gun store, The White Elephant, to by a box.
The only caliber left was some 10MM. I didn't own a 10MM and didn't really have any desire to get one. Not that it really mattered, I just thought it would be cool to have some. Years later, last year, I picked up a used Colt Delta Elite.
The first round in bare gel had a velocity of 897fps it penetrated to 17 inches and expanded to .82 inches. Round two hit at 912fps with 16.25 inches of penetration and expanded to .84 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/y343veYl.jpg?1)
In heavy clothing, the first round had a velocity of 944fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The expansion was uneven with only one side of the bullet extending outward to .70 inches. Round two went into the block at 992fps and penetrated to 17.75 inches. Like the first round, expansion was uneven at .65 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/j9LEDPJl.jpg?1)
http://www.general-cartridge.com/ (http://www.general-cartridge.com/)
Welcome 5pins..... Thanks for sharing. I noticed this test on AR15.com...
Certainly not ideal but even partially expanded with the 4 layers but would still have been effective.
Too slow, loaded at 40 S&W velocity... at true 10mm fps it would worked fine (imho).
They look mean... Love for Winchester to load Ranger T in 10mm (real 10mm) but won't hold my breath!
It was an amazing round, and hard to believe it is nearly 30 years old. For 1991, this was outstanding performance.
I have have a box that was gifted to me. Also have two boxes in .40 that I saved from back in the day.
Hornady 10mm 175gr CD in Clear Ballistics Gel
(https://i.imgur.com/5ukJLKml.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady 10mm 175gr Critical Duty FTX.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 1131fps.
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.
It would seem like I'm on a 10mm kick as of late and today is no exception. Today's offering is the Hornady 175gr Critical Duty. This round shot very nicely out of the Delta Elite. Recoil was not bad at all, but you could tell it wasn't as watered down as some 10mm's out there. The five shot group hit point of aim at 10 yards and there were no signs of overpressure, the cases and primers looked fine. The five shot average velocity of 1131fps was 29fps lower than the advertised of 1160fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/tdgKdQbl.jpg?1)
Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 1133fps and penetrated to 15 inches with a recovered expansion of .60 inches. Round two hit at 1141fps and penetrated to 17 inches with a recovered expansion of .58 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/CfmXd1Vl.jpg?1)
In the gel covered in heavy clothing, the first round entered the block at 1150fps with a penetration of 17.5 inches and expansion of .57 inches. Number two went 17.25 inches, expanded to .55 inches, and had a velocity of 1169fps. Both of the rounds were recovered base forward.
(https://i.imgur.com/S4BYwM5l.jpg?1)
www.general-cartridge.com (http://www.general-cartridge.com)
(https://i.imgur.com/qF81l6El.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 10mm 180gr Hydra-Shok (P10HS1).
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 986fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.
The latest installment in the 10mm is the Federal 180gr Hydra-Shok. I forgot to take a pic of the loaded ammo in front of the box and by the time I remembered I had shot up all the 20 rounds. I got an average velocity of 986fps with a high of 996 and a low of 980. I ended up shooting two five round groups at 10 yards because I lost the pic of the first five. Hence one of the reasons for running out of ammo for the box pic.
(https://i.imgur.com/2noEdiZl.jpg?1)
The first round in bare gel had a velocity of 995fps but exited the block at the 15-inch mark and was found on the floor next to me. For some reason, it took a left turn in the block and lost a small piece of the jacket at the 10.5-inch mark. It expanded to .71 inches. Round two hit the block at 990 fps and also penetrated to 15 inches and expanded to .68 inches and stayed in the block. The third round (I wanted to catch two in the block) impacted at 981fps, it to penetrated to 15 inches with a recovered diameter of .69 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/Nzc8X3Ol.jpg?1)
In the heavy clothing covered gel the first round penetrated to 20.75 inches and expanded to .55 inches with a velocity of 1003fps. Number two went a little deeper at 22.5 inches and expanded to .58 inches with a velocity of 990fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/8Z7zGK1l.jpg?1)
Any link to a Doubletap 230 grain 10mm gelatin test ?
I shot 2 pigs [emoji241] with them and I tell ya,,, wow ! Better than a .45 for certain !
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Florida Yankee on July 20 2018 02:21:18 PM MDT
Any link to a Doubletap 230 grain 10mm gelatin test ?
I shot 2 pigs [emoji241] with them and I tell ya,,, wow ! Better than a .45 for certain !
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/double-tap-10mm-and-45-acp-woods-loads (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/double-tap-10mm-and-45-acp-woods-loads)
Quote from: 5pins on May 15 2018 03:01:37 PM MDT
Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady 10mm 175gr Critical Duty FTX.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 1131fps.
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.
It would seem like I'm on a 10mm kick as of late and today is no exception. Today's offering is the Hornady 175gr Critical Duty. This round shot very nicely out of the Delta Elite. Recoil was not bad at all, but you could tell it wasn't as watered down as some 10mm's out there. The five shot group hit point of aim at 10 yards and there were no signs of overpressure, the cases and primers looked fine. The five shot average velocity of 1131fps was 29fps lower than the advertised of 1160fps.
Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 1133fps and penetrated to 15 inches with a recovered expansion of .60 inches. Round two hit at 1141fps and penetrated to 17 inches with a recovered expansion of .58 inches.
In the gel covered in heavy clothing, the first round entered the block at 1150fps with a penetration of 17.5 inches and expansion of .57 inches. Number two went 17.25 inches, expanded to .55 inches, and had a velocity of 1169fps. Both of the rounds were recovered base forward.
Lucky Gunner's test used a 4.6" barreled Glock and 5pins used a 5" 1911 platform but interesting to note that LG's velocity averaged almost 100fps less than these test results.
(https://i.imgur.com/YruBABkl.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Sellier & Bellot 10mm 180gr JHP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 1061fps
Gel Temperature: 73 degrees.
I have been using S&B primers for some time now and they have always performed well for me. My experience with their ammo, on the other hand, has been limited to some military surplus stuff some time ago. When I came across a discussion on the 10mm forum about this 10mm JHP I became interested, and the price was just under $16 for a box of 50. Until recently no one had any in stock but I was finally able to get some from Target Sports USA.
I got an average five-shot velocity of 1061fps, with a high of 1079fps and a low of 1048. This velocity was much lower than the advertised velocity of 1164fps. It's not rare for the manufacturer to inflate their velocity numbers but others have obtained numbers closer to the manufacturers claim. I shot another five rounds a few days later and still came up with an average of 1058fps. I also shot another pistol with some known ammo and it's numbers were right where they were supposed to be.
(https://i.imgur.com/UEBFRA3l.jpg?1)
I wasn't able to use the chronograph so I don't have any velocity numbers for the induvial shots.
The first round in the bare gel penetrated to 14.75 inches and it expanded to.67 inches with a recovered weight of 175.6 grains. Round two penetrated to 12.25 inches, expanded to .68 inches and a weight of 176.2 grains.
(https://i.imgur.com/NITvMJ6l.jpg?1)
In the heavy clothed gel the first round penetrated to 16.25 inches, expanded to .64 inches and had a recovered weight of 178.1 grains. The second shot went 16 inches deep and also expanded to .64 inches and a recovered weight of 177.2 grains.
(https://i.imgur.com/L7s6s4nl.jpg?1)
Thanks 5pins!!
It's definitely not XTP bullet and the velocity was very disappointing but the performance in gel looks pretty decent.
Thanks for taking time to do this test, I was hoping the velocities would be better but the gel tests were good.
Thanks for doing these tests!
The S&B jhp load looks like it's in the Goldilocks range. Not too hot and not too cool, just right. ;D
Quote from: Rick R on August 22 2018 02:17:00 PM MDT
[...]
The S&B jhp load looks like it's in the Goldilocks range. Not too hot and not too cool, just right.
I don't think you can get too hot. I don't shoot anything but 200 gr Underwood in my Kimber 1911. And nothing but Underwood ammo in my revolvers (except for my ultralight S&W 360sc .357 snubby ... Mid-range Federals are all I can take in that gun).
Quote from: Rick R on August 22 2018 02:17:00 PM MDT
The S&B jhp load looks like it's in the Goldilocks range. Not too hot and not too cool, just right. ;D
Yea, not so much to me :-[... If someone considers performance on par with 40 short & weak as representing Goldilocks zone, then this choice is good to go. I already have a 40 S&W loaded with 40 S&W.... Always personal preference prevails but I like 10mm loaded with 10mm. Don't have to be nuclar.... just loaded for legit 10mm.
Expansion and penetration are where they need to be with the S&B jhp load and 100 fps faster than the Short & Weak. Where non-gun shooters had issues with the 1006 shooting 180gr @ 1200fps they did pretty well with the "FBI Lite" load of a 180gr @ 950fps out of the same gun. Then when we went to actual .40 S&W pistols those same people had issues, again.
I like energetic ammo too but it's interesting to see loadings that mere mortals can handle do well when tested. Remember Goldilocks was a little girl. ;)
Thanks for the review of the S&B ammo. I use this ammo for range practice and I'm a little surprised at the velocity, I thought it would be a little more. They feel fairly warm from my 29 and more like my UW 200 XTP load. Either way, they are accurate and cheap.
(https://i.imgur.com/2DVv7A6l.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Sig Sauer 10mm 180gr V-Crown.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 1189fps
Gel Temperature 72 degrees.
I have tested the Sig V-Crown several times and have been less than impressed with their performance. So it was with some hesitation that I pick up a box of 10mm and .357 sig when I had the opportunity. In fact, after the .357 Magnum test, I had decided to not to try them anymore. But I decided to give them one more chance while at the same time not expecting much.
I got a five-round average velocity of 1189fps with a high of 1205 and a low of 1176fps.
(http://i.imgur.com/RFsGmBgl.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/RFsGmBg)
Round one in the Clear gel had a velocity of 1222fps and penetrated to 18 inches. The expansion was .71 inches and a recovered weight of 177.3 grains. Round two's velocity was 1186fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The expansion was also .17 inches and the recovered weight was 177.6 grains.
(https://i.imgur.com/WCgNbh5l.jpg?1)
The V-Crowns seem to have problems with the clothing test and wile not a complete failer the results were mixed. The first round's velocity was not recorded with the chronograph. It penetrated to 25 inches with a recovered diameter of .61 inches and weighted 177.8 grains. The velocity of the second round 1206fps and it penetrated to 19.5 inches. Recovered weight was 177.1 grains and the diameter was .65 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/QxmuDa3l.jpg?1)
http://www.general-cartridge.com/ (http://www.general-cartridge.com/)
As always 5pins your tests are appreciated.
With regard to your clothing test... What materials are you using? I've observed denim and a green material in several of your tests.
So it appears your not going exclusively with the 4 layers of denim.
Thanks again for your test.
Couple of members have recently used the 180gr Sig V-Crown very successfully in hunting applications but I did notice the ammunition has shown to have problems with heavy clothing. Good thing deer don't wear heavy winter clothing ;D!
Quote from: Rojo27 on November 21 2018 06:56:57 PM MST
As always 5pins your tests are appreciated.
With regard to your clothing test... What materials are you using? I've observed denim and a green material in several of your tests.
So it appears your not going exclusively with the 4 layers of denim.
Thanks again for your test.
Couple of members have recently used the 180gr Sig V-Crown very successfully in hunting applications but I did notice the ammunition has shown to have problems with heavy clothing. Good thing deer don't wear heavy winter clothing ;D!
I use the heavy clothing FBI protocol not the IWBA's four layers of denim. This link explains it.
http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/what-is-heavy-clothing
(https://i.imgur.com/PENLcZPl.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Speer 10mm 200gr Gold Dot.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1028fps
Gel Temperature 77 degrees.
I finally picked up a box of this ammo when Target Sports had it in stock when I ordered a bunch of 9mm ammo. I got a five-shot average of 1028fps with a high of 1040 and a low 1014fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/q6S0XHIl.jpg?1)
Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 1042fps and penetrated to 16 inches. Recovered weight was 199.3 grains and expansion was .65 inches. Round two also penetrated to 16 inches. Recovered diameter was .66 inches and weight was 199.1 grains. Velocity was 1032fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/6bkc3TPl.jpg?1)
In the heavy clothed gel, the first round's velocity was 1014fps and it penetrated to 18.25 inches. Recovered weight was 199.8 grains and its expansion was .65 inches. The final round penetrated to 17.5 inches and had a recovered weight of 199.6 grains and an expansion of .66 inches. The chronograph did not get a velocity reading.
(https://i.imgur.com/3ix1KA1l.jpg?1)
http://www.general-cartridge.com/ (http://www.general-cartridge.com/)
Thanks 5pins!
Like almost everyone else here; really want to see what this projectile would do humping along at 1200 or 1250 fps. Speer might not see the value in loading hotter or selling the projectile as a component for loaders or smaller commercial loaders but I for one won't be buying any.
I see very little differentiation of results for this cartridge compared to several other 180gr cartridges.
I think Speer missed the mark on this one. It looks like they loaded it for carry to meet the FBI standard when it should have been tailored for hunting.
Laded to a higher velocity they would open up sooner thus yielding slightly less penetration with larger expansion and energy dump! ::)
Still looking for these bullets to become a component for handloading someday! But then if sales lack they might just dump them to the resellers... ???
I just got finished watching and reading all 35 pages of this epic thread. Wow! Thank you to everyone who made it happen: Raggedyman, Intercooler, 5pins, the Shadow, and all the others I missed.
What did I learn? Probably no such thing as a perfect round, but the 10mm gives some SOLID choices as evidence by these great anecdotes. 10 years ago, who would have thought that we'd have so many choices in 10mm ammo and firearms.
Quote from: 5pins on May 15 2018 03:01:37 PM MDT
Hornady 10mm 175gr CD in Clear Ballistics Gel
(https://i.imgur.com/5ukJLKml.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady 10mm 175gr Critical Duty FTX.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 1131fps.
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.
It would seem like I'm on a 10mm kick as of late and today is no exception. Today's offering is the Hornady 175gr Critical Duty. This round shot very nicely out of the Delta Elite. Recoil was not bad at all, but you could tell it wasn't as watered down as some 10mm's out there. The five shot group hit point of aim at 10 yards and there were no signs of overpressure, the cases and primers looked fine. The five shot average velocity of 1131fps was 29fps lower than the advertised of 1160fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/tdgKdQbl.jpg?1)
Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 1133fps and penetrated to 15 inches with a recovered expansion of .60 inches. Round two hit at 1141fps and penetrated to 17 inches with a recovered expansion of .58 inches.
(https://i.imgur.com/CfmXd1Vl.jpg?1)
In the gel covered in heavy clothing, the first round entered the block at 1150fps with a penetration of 17.5 inches and expansion of .57 inches. Number two went 17.25 inches, expanded to .55 inches, and had a velocity of 1169fps. Both of the rounds were recovered base forward.
(https://i.imgur.com/S4BYwM5l.jpg?1)
www.general-cartridge.com (http://www.general-cartridge.com)
I've carried Critical Duty on and off. They are slightly stronger than a 40, and follow up shots are fairly easy. From the looks of this performance, I'd be right to start carrying it again.
Another 10mm test by Andrew. We've had discussions on this forum about 10mm Federal Trophy Bond SP not performing well in recent clear ballistics tests. Andrew does a nice job illustrating what might be causing the recent clear ballistic gel tests of that round to look bad.
I never have learned how to imbed a video on this page, sorry about the link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vRywrqRBfP4
Federal 10mm 200gr HST ballistics gel test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMeHw-rlIDo
Here is a 140gr Maker SCHP through 4 layers of denim and 13" of a calibrated, (formerly) clear ballistics block. Glock 20 - 1,514 FPS
[attachment deleted by admin]
Now that's impressive!!! ;D
Yes it is. I would have expected much less penetration.
Very Nice! Thicker petals than Barnes TAC-XP It appears that the base is tapered on the Maker 140 SCHP
(https://i.imgur.com/6XEnKHcl.jpg?1)
Test Gun: Colt Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Underwood 200 and 220gr Hard Cast
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1191, 1139fps
Gel Temperature 74 degrees
This test has to be one of the biggest pain in the ass test I have ever done. This is the third and last in the Underwood woods loads. The 10mm is probably the most recommended woods carry round for semi-auto pistols and for good reason. The 10mm is a powerful round capable of sending heavy bullets at high velocity giving deep penetration. However, as we have seen in the past test with the .45, .40 and 9mm provide a very good alternative.
With the 200gr loading, I got an average velocity of 1191fps with a high of 1200 and a low of 1183fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/qWAKQTZl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots 200gr
The 220gr round had a four-shot velocity (chorny problems) of 1139fps with a high of 1162fps and a low of 1108fps.
(https://i.imgur.com/EGPawAol.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots 220gr
(https://i.imgur.com/OfGtrsTl.jpg?1)
When shooting the 200gr load on paper at 10 yards I was having issues with the slide locking back with a loaded magazine. I decided to modify the slide lock to prevent this from happing. Once completing the modification, I had no more slide lock issues. I remember committing when I tested the Double Tap hard cast loading should not be necessary. However, if I wanted to shoot this type of ammo I guess it was necessary for my gun.
(https://i.imgur.com/7SUsCFAl.jpg?1)
I also had two failures to eject with both the 200 and 220gr loadings. I have never had this happen in this gun before but I'm not convinced it was an ammo issue.
(https://i.imgur.com/t5YeHD2l.jpg?1)
In the bare gel, the first found of the 200gr hard cast hit the gel at a velocity of 1189fps and 58.5 inches and had a recovered weight of 195.4 grains. The second round has a velocity of 1204fps and penetrated to 58 inches. The recovered weight of that bullet was 196.7 grains.
(https://i.imgur.com/xpXEcUvl.jpg?1)
I had many issues shooting through the sheet metal. I tried three rounds and all of them curved to the left and exited the about midway through the second block.
I had similar issues with the 220gr bullets. Where the 200gr penetrated straight in the bare gel both of the 220gr bullets took a significant curve to the left also. Luckily I had shot both of them on the right side of the blocks or they wouldn't have been recovered either.
The first shot in the bare gel had a velocity of 1146fps and penetrated to 60 inches. Recovered weight was 217.7 grains. The second round's velocity was 1160fps and penetrated to 59.75 inches. Recovered weight was 216.6 grains.
(https://i.imgur.com/aUgULuCl.jpg?1)
With the 220gr shot through the sheet metal, I had very similar problems as with the 200gr loading. Three rounds were shot and only one was recovered. The one recovered bullet's velocity was 1172fps and it penetrated to 25 inches. Recovered weight was 202.4 grains. The second round curved upward and exited the top of the block about midway through the second block. The last round curved to the left, just like the 200gr bullets, and exited about midway through the second block.
(https://i.imgur.com/m5mUuBol.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/IeQew01l.jpg)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Magtech 10mm 180gr JHP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1188fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.
https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2020/01/16/magtech-10mm-180gr-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2020/01/16/magtech-10mm-180gr-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)
(https://i.imgur.com/HGI1NuSl.jpg)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 10mm 180gr Trophy Bonded JSP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1216fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.
https://general-cartridge.com/2020/02/05/federal-10mm-180gr-trophy-bonded-jsp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/02/05/federal-10mm-180gr-trophy-bonded-jsp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)
Thanks Spins, look like a promising load!
Ken
(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/20200415_171746-e1586985963854.jpg?w=840)
Test Gun: Delta Elite
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Bullet: Sierra 40 cal 165gr JHP #8445 (Handload).
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1280fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.
https://general-cartridge.com/2020/04/15/sierra-40-cal-165gr-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel-10mm-handload/
5pins, Those Sierra's were very popular in the early days for the 10mm handloaders, I loaded my share of them early on...
(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/20200804_214401-e1596631168141.jpg?w=840)
Test Gun: Glock 20.
Barrel length: 4.6 Inches.
Ammunition: Federal 10mm 200gr HST.
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1078fps
BB Calibration: 3.75inches
https://general-cartridge.com/2020/08/11/federal-10mm-200gr-hst-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/08/11/federal-10mm-200gr-hst-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/)
For sure a formidable rd, Thanks!
Very nice 5pins...You didn't happen to do a pull down to see what powder and how much they were using?
Seeing how they almost duplicate the Speer 200 gr GD it may be the same loading...
(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/20201023_185152.jpg?w=840)
Test Gun: Ruger LCP
Barrel length: 2.75 inches.
Ammunition: Remington .380 ACP 102gr Golden Saber
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 821fps
BB Calibration: 3.75 inches.
https://general-cartridge.com/2020/10/27/remington-380-acp-102gr-golden-saber-in-vyes-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/10/27/remington-380-acp-102gr-golden-saber-in-vyes-ballistics-gel/)
(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/20211001_083057.jpg?w=840)
Test Gun: Glock 20
Barrel length: 4.6 inches.
Ammunition: Cutting Edge 10MM 190gr PD solids.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1089fps.
https://general-cartridge.com/2021/10/02/cutting-edge-10mm-190gr-pd-solid-in-clear-ballistics-gel/
Thanks for the range report and testing...For those in LEAD restricted areas they would be a good choice for sure!
Great work, Thanks man!
(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2022/04/20220411_094612.jpg?w=840)
Test Gun: Glock 20
Barrel length: 4.9 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 10mm 175gr Silvertip JHP (W10MMST)
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1160fps
BB Calibration: inches. 4 inches
https://general-cartridge.com/2022/04/12/winchester-10mm-175gr-silvertip-in-vyse-ballistics-gel
Awesome report 5pins!