10mm-Auto

I've tested several 10mm loads in homemade ballistic gelatin. While my gelatin is not 250A bloom photographer's gelatin, it is still actual gelatin, not synthetic material and it is calibrated with a .177 cal BB @600 fps +/- 10 fps.  I also have compared the performance of well documented loads such as factory Speer Gold Dot .40 S&W and Prvi Partisan 75 gr BTHP. The results are almost identical (within expected statistical variation) to the published results so I feel confident that these results, while not scientific, are at least indicative of the general performance ability of the loads tested and should be within a few inches of what a professional lab might get.

165 looks good.

Nice job.  Thanks for posting your results.

Would it be wrong to say that the XTP round is not cutting it.

Under 1100fps I think yes.  1200fps or more I feel it's great.

I think with the XTP more velocity is needed to aid expansion, which in the XTP is more of a roll back type of expansion as opposed to the the blow open expansion of a Gold Dot.  Did that make any sense?  Did I convey my thoughts adequately there with the highly scientific terminology of roll back compared to blow open?

My thought exactly on the XTP Redline.It needs serious punch to expand.

Definitely.  XTP bullets are good in most scenarios.  But soup up the velocity some, and IMO they simply shine all the more.

I have another thread going in the factory ammo forum. Intercooler suggested that I just post results there so I'm going to do that. There's another set of tests over there now.

The reason is that the XTP's are long is because of the thickness of the real copper jackets, bullets like the Gold dots their jackets although bonded are thinner thus either larger cavities or shorter lengths.  The XTP's control expansion by jacket design and thickness and the segmented cuts, whereas the GD's control via the bonding and depth of the cavities and the segmented cuts.  Driving them harder than their design parameters can over ride the expansion properties.

Berry's is soon to release their line of plated and  bonded HP's and that should be interesting...if they are reasonably plated to a thickness to allow good working velocity ranges, they will be a viable choice for applications like hunting or SD.  8)

So the XTP's in question will not open up unless high velocity?

We don't really know yet. Sorry, but I left two variables open because I really didn't expect it not to expand. I forgot the denim in the earlier test but I lowered the velocity to see if I could get more penetration. I will repeat the test with denim and at the higher velocity to determine if the 200 gr XTP can expand through denim if it's going fast enough.

How about the 155 grain XTP at 1450 fps or so?

I agree with the 155gr XTP at ~1450fps.  I would add the same for a 155gr Gold Dot around the same velocity tested right along side it, but in a separate gel block.

I'm sure I'll probably do that eventually but based on my 165 gr Gold Dot at 1,310 fps test, I don't believe a lighter bullet will make minimum penetration standards.

Yes and no about the minimum penetration standards.  So far as what the FBI deem necessary for themeselves and that others choose to need for similar possible scenarios, yes.  For numerous other uses in self defense and hunting, no.

If 155gr bullets are deemed useless because they can't reach a certain penetration depth in gel or further, then 135gr Nosler bullets at 10mm velocity that penetrate even less in gel would certainly be deemed useless for the harvest of Whitetail Deer, which we know is NOT the case.

Gel is of little connotation to the distance bullets actually penetrate in people or animals.  Gel is a constant medium throughout.  Human and animal bodies are not, even to include air space.  About the only thing gel is good for is being an exact same medium for which to compare all cartridges and loads against, in gel.  Not all countries of the World even agree on using the same density of gel, let alone people not agreeing within a country.

Some rounds that perform exceptional in gel don't in the real world, and some rounds that perform poorly in gel excell in the real world.  "Standards", in some cases can be left for an individual to decide for themselves based on real world out-in-field knowledge where gel doesn't always tell a whole truth.

Here is where gel testing has real value.

Make 4"X6"X20" gel blocks.  Set them up at 25 yards covered in 4 layers of denim.

When you can draw from cover and hit that block on the first shot every time in less than 2 seconds, then you are pretty well defended.  Placing the shot where it needs to go makes up for a ton of terminal performance deficiency. 

Are deer known for attacking people with firearms, having large, meaty limbs extended in front of them? Small deer can be put down by cartridges that are absolutely unsuitable for defense because the shot will usually be very carefully aimed and the bullet only has to penetrate a couple inches of tissue before encountering vital organs. If you were hunting people, you could get away with similar cartridges. I presume you're not a psychopath and the discussion isn't about hunting, but about defense. The reason for the FBI standards is the fact that people who are attacking you typically don't stand still with their arms at their sides like an E-type silhouette. Rather, they move and often a bullet has to pass through a limb before it reaches the torso. If an arm is outstretched as it might be if pointing a firearm at you, the bullet has to pass through several inches of tissue in the arm before it gets to the chest. To complicate things even further, sometimes a shot enters the target at an oblique angle because the shooter and/or target are prone.

The FBI didn't just arbitrarily make this stuff up to screw with you. The 12" minimum IS based on real world shootings. Their determinations were made based on analysis of literally THOUSANDS of actual shootings. I don't care how many deer you've shot, you can't come even close to the real world data that was used to reach their conclusions.

You're right, of course that gelatin doesn't predict what a bullet will do in tissue. That's not its purpose, either. For that matter, what a bullet does in tissue won't predict what a bullet will do in tissue the next time. Properly calibrated gelatin is a consistent medium that allows us to objectively compare one cartridge to another. It does no more and no less.

Ultimately, shot placement or balance of speed and accuracy, is more important than cartridge selection. It isn't the whole story, though is it? If it were, we'd all just carry a Browning Buckmark or Ruger 22/45. Frankly, the 10mm at full power isn't a very good cartridge for defense because the recoil slows down split times. I know everyone on teh interwebz is ten feet tall and shoots a magazine into a quarter at 50m but no matter how good you are (or think you are), you're faster with a 9mm, .40, or .45. The 10mm is neat because we can carry one gun that's suitable for people AND large or dangerous animals. It's also neat because it's very flat shooting. It's also neat because we're weirdos who like unusual stuff. It's not a magical death ray, though.

It is rather neat to visit the range and see all the normal calibers and there you are with a 10mm. You and only you  ;D

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 15 2012 11:02:54 AM MST
It's not a magical death ray, though.

Speak for yourself...Mine is most definitely a magical death ray! ;D

Quote from: Intercooler on November 15 2012 12:21:15 PM MST
It is rather neat to visit the range and see all the normal calibers and there you are with a 10mm. You and only you  ;D

Except I have convinced so many of my range buddies to get 10's this is rarely true anymore.

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 15 2012 11:02:54 AM MST
Are deer known for attacking people with firearms, having large, meaty limbs extended in front of them? Small deer can be put down by cartridges that are absolutely unsuitable for defense because the shot will usually be very carefully aimed and the bullet only has to penetrate a couple inches of tissue before encountering vital organs. If you were hunting people, you could get away with similar cartridges. I presume you're not a psychopath and the discussion isn't about hunting, but about defense. The reason for the FBI standards is the fact that people who are attacking you typically don't stand still with their arms at their sides like an E-type silhouette. Rather, they move and often a bullet has to pass through a limb before it reaches the torso. If an arm is outstretched as it might be if pointing a firearm at you, the bullet has to pass through several inches of tissue in the arm before it gets to the chest. To complicate things even further, sometimes a shot enters the target at an oblique angle because the shooter and/or target are prone.

The FBI didn't just arbitrarily make this stuff up to screw with you. The 12" minimum IS based on real world shootings. Their determinations were made based on analysis of literally THOUSANDS of actual shootings. I don't care how many deer you've shot, you can't come even close to the real world data that was used to reach their conclusions.

You're right, of course that gelatin doesn't predict what a bullet will do in tissue. That's not its purpose, either. For that matter, what a bullet does in tissue won't predict what a bullet will do in tissue the next time. Properly calibrated gelatin is a consistent medium that allows us to objectively compare one cartridge to another. It does no more and no less.

Ultimately, shot placement or balance of speed and accuracy, is more important than cartridge selection. It isn't the whole story, though is it? If it were, we'd all just carry a Browning Buckmark or Ruger 22/45. Frankly, the 10mm at full power isn't a very good cartridge for defense because the recoil slows down split times. I know everyone on teh interwebz is ten feet tall and shoots a magazine into a quarter at 50m but no matter how good you are (or think you are), you're faster with a 9mm, .40, or .45. The 10mm is neat because we can carry one gun that's suitable for people AND large or dangerous animals. It's also neat because it's very flat shooting. It's also neat because we're weirdos who like unusual stuff. It's not a magical death ray, though.

So we agree.  No arguement here.

Good. I'm sorry if I sounded condescending. Re-reading my post, it looks like it could come off that way. To restate more succinctly, hunting is very different from defensive shooting, more so from defensive shooting of a person.

I get a little worked up when people disregard the FBI minimum penetration standards, especially when a firearm novice might read the post and misunderstand. That's how you end up with idiots using #8 bird shot for home defense. I believe that a 135 gr Nosler would, actually, stop a fight quickly in most cases. Unfortunately, there are circumstance where it might not offer enough penetration and if that happens, you're stuck with the ammo in your magazine.

No worries.  I understand where you're coming from and agree.  I never meant for anyone to take it that I was making any comparison between FBI standards and hunting applications, nor did I think I wrote it to be construed that way.

I was making an attempt to point out that FBI standards are not the only reason some of us would still like to see the penetration depth in gel for the various 155gr JHP offerings.

How did the Norma loads come to be and by who?I know it was Norma ammo maker,but was it FBI approved?Hope that's not a stupid question,just not aware of how those loads were determined and by who.170 at 1400 and then reduced to 1300 and the 200 at 1200.PMC has the 170,just not at 1300.

Glad we're on the same page, Redline. I hate arguing with idiots and of course anyone who disagrees with me must be a retard.  ;)


As I remember, and please don't quote me, the Norma load is a result of musings by Jeff Cooper. It was kinda just an idea back then, then it gained steam, then the FBI determined the recoil was too much, then the FBI lite load came about, then the .40 S&W. For what it's worth, I concur with the FBI's assessment that the recoil is too stiff for defense. 10mm is great for a woods gun, for flat shooting, or for just playing around with something cool and different, but 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are far better suited for general defensive use. What's really cool about the 10mm, though, is that we can just load it down lite at barely over hot .40 specs and have a fast shooting, nice handling round perfect for defense and with a simple mag change have a powerful hunting load or dangerous animal defense load.

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 17 2012 02:30:49 AM MST
Glad we're on the same page, Redline. I hate arguing with idiots and of course anyone who disagrees with me must be a retard.  ;)

Well of course, we all rule our own man cave.

Quote
10mm is great for a woods gun, for flat shooting, or for just playing around with something cool and different, but 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP are far better suited for general defensive use.

Here we'll have to agree to disagree.  You can carry any, all of, or any combination of 9, 40, and 45.  I'll carry nuclear loads in 10mm.  Works for me.  Besides, what fun would it be for us to agree on everything. 8)

Right?

My CCW is a Glock 23. In my 10mm, which I OC, I'm really starting to lean towards a powderpuff 180 gr for personal defense. Something hotter than .40 but not by much. Say 1,100-1,150 fps. Gold Dots and others do a fantastic job at those speeds and less recoil means faster shooting. If I can get that 200 gr XTP to work right through denim, I'd like to use that for camping/hiking here in the low country. I've got high hopes for the Winchester JSP for deep penetration and moderate expansion and if that works I'd like to use that for high country carry. A 155 gr Gold Dot or 135 gr Nosler should work really well for hunting javelina or 'yotes.

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 15 2012 11:02:54 AM MST
Frankly, the 10mm at full power isn't a very good cartridge for defense because the recoil slows down split times. I know everyone on teh interwebz is ten feet tall and shoots a magazine into a quarter at 50m but no matter how good you are (or think you are), you're faster with a 9mm, .40, or .45. The 10mm is neat because we can carry one gun that's suitable for people AND large or dangerous animals.

I don't agree with you here. I don't wanna sound rude as I state my opinion in a second so I just want to say up front I don't mean to be. Tone is sometimes hard to convey via text.

I don't give much value to split times when there are small differences. I'll agree that I can shoot my 17 faster than my old G20 and my current G29. Shooting faster often makes people feel good and it all looks the same down range when we are shooting paper. However, as you said, this is not the whole story. That's why I give more credence to what full power 10mm can do down range aside from paper. Regardless of the gun, the first shot will not be affected by recoil. The first shot is also the money maker. Now, I can shoot and I know I can shoot but I'm not one of those interweb commandos that believes I will always score a first shot/s but I want whatever lands on target to have the greatest potential for effect. Even if I can shoot 4.5-5 rounds out of my 9mm as compared to 4 from my 10mm in the same amount of time, the potential for decreasing an assailants ability to do the same to me is greater from full house 10mm loads. Similar to a fist fight, I see no value in hitting my oponent more softly just because I can do it a little faster. Harder hits are better.

Just my opinion.

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 17 2012 10:05:23 AM MST
Right?

Don't get me wrong, no doubt I wouldn't want to get hit by anything coming out of the business end of your G23 at any velocity!

Quote
My CCW is a Glock 23. In my 10mm, which I OC, I'm really starting to lean towards a powderpuff 180 gr for personal defense. Something hotter than .40 but not by much. Say 1,100-1,150 fps. Gold Dots and others do a fantastic job at those speeds and less recoil means faster shooting. If I can get that 200 gr XTP to work right through denim, I'd like to use that for camping/hiking here in the low country. I've got high hopes for the Winchester JSP for deep penetration and moderate expansion and if that works I'd like to use that for high country carry. A 155 gr Gold Dot or 135 gr Nosler should work really well for hunting javelina or 'yotes.

Both at 1150fps, do you really think there will be a measureable difference in terminal performance between a 200XTP that expands a medium amount and a lighter weight Winchester JSP that expands somewhat less but still expands?  That's a scenario that has good potential to come out even-steven.  I'm not saying don't test the theory, just that I wouldn't expect much noticeable difference, if any.  I could be wrong.  And again, that assumes both start out at 1150fps.

As for 135s, we already know they are capable of working well on deer.  No doubt it shouldn't be any different with javelina (assuming you don't solidly hit the shoulder pad on the boars) or 'yotes.

Sorry. I worded that poorly. I meant that the human defense load would be a little soft but the woods load would be full power so the 180 gr JSP would hopefully be about 1,300 fps or so.

With your correction mentioned, I would also be interested in knowing what the difference might be between the 200XTP and Winchester JSP.

Me too. I'd like a relatively heavy (180 gr+) bullet pushed as fast as is reasonable and I want it to just expand a little bit while still penetrating pretty deeply. From the test today, it looks like I might be on the right track with the 200 gr XTP.

In regard to being on track with the 200XTP, is that with 800-X or No.9?

Quote from: REDLINE on November 18 2012 08:02:17 PM MST
In regard to being on track with the 200XTP, is that with 800-X or No.9?

800-X.

All the relevant data is in the description for each video. To read it, click the "Watch on YouTube" link.

Raggedyman, Very nice...what was the depth of penetration on the Hornady 200XTP's?  ???
I think the 200's need to be pushed to at least 1200 fps for best expansion.  If  they were the polymer tipped like the Critical Defense i would think they would actually open faster and lower velocity.  It is hard to beat the performance of the Dold Dot lineup!  I wish Speer made the Gold Dots in 190 or 200 grain.  8)

Quote from: The_Shadow on November 19 2012 01:49:16 PM MST
Raggedyman, Very nice...what was the depth of penetration on the Hornady 200XTP's?  ???
I think the 200's need to be pushed to at least 1200 fps for best expansion.  If  they were the polymer tipped like the Critical Defense i would think they would actually open faster and lower velocity.  It is hard to beat the performance of the Dold Dot lineup!  I wish Speer made the Gold Dots in 190 or 200 grain.  8)

At 1,133 fps impact velocity, 17"
At 1,151 fps impact velocity, 22"

I'd kinda like to find a speed where they XTPs only open a little so they still drive really nice and deep.

Tested Hornady 165 gr Critical Defense and Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber today. I'll probably post the pics and video as well as bullet measurements tomorrow if I get a chance to melt the blocks down but here are the numbers from today's test:


BB calibration: 599.3 fps, 3.6"

10mm Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr

Velocity, penetration

1,135 fps, 12.6"
1,148 fps, 12.2"
1,148 fps, 12.8"
1,144 fps, 12.7"



BB calibration: 594.0 fps, 3.75"

Precision Cartridge 180 gr Golden Saber:

Velocity, penetration

1,161 fps, 13.8"
1,150 fps,  (this one actually angled up a bit and left one block, then left a small mark where it hit the second block and I couldn't find it)
1,162 fps, 13.8"
1,139 fps, 13.7"

My Chronograph numbers were a good bit higher. Don't know... time for a retest!

I think it was about 80 yesterday. Was it hotter when you tested? Any chance the ammo sat in the sun before testing? You used your 4.5" Witness, right?

That sounds about right. I got my results from the Match 4.75".  I noticed in Shadows recent test we Matched both using the same 1006 setup on all Underwood tested but a couple were off what I got from the others. It's hard to tell what causes these things but the hand Chrony never fails. I can pretty much tell by recoil and muzzle flip if it's real 10mm or not.

I also tested 200 gr HAP over 8.3 gr of 800-X at 1,153 fps but I didn't get any video of it. Here are the numbers and pics, though:

Penetration: 19.4"
Weight retention: 198.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.623"
Min expansion: 0.442"

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4191/img0351dg.jpg)


(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9083/img0376ef.jpg)


(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3336/img0378vj.jpg)

I've followed this thread and the one over on GT with great interest.  I've been most impressed with the uniform expansion of the GDHPs, but see several comments that most are impressed with the XTPs, which to me, don't seem to expand well below 1200 fps, am I missing something that makes the XTP superior?

Thanks

I'm generally a Gold Dot fan over the XTP.

And no, you're not missing anything.  It all boils down to different schools of thought.

One school of thought is that Gold Dots at true 10mm velocity overexpand and are therefore deemed by this group to be considered useless.

My school of thought is that the "overexpanded" and sometimes somewhat fragemented Gold Dots still penetrate as deep as I care for them too and do more terminal destruction in the process.

Another school of thought, simply based on the fact that XTP bullets penetrate deeper, is what some people feel is best.  Especially when barrier penetration is thrown into the mix.  I personally have no issue with this barrier aspect as Gold Dots make it through barriers just fine anyway, and by the time most JHP bullets get through some barriers they won't expand afterwards anyway.  And when they do expand afterwards, the Gold Dots generally do it as well as any other bullet.

Both the XTP and Gold Dot bullets are superior from each other in different ways.  It's simply a choice of the aspects the individual holds most dear.

You'll hear most say they also specifically prefer the XTP bullets for hunting over Gold Dots.  If we're talking Whitetail Deer and smaller, I'm not in that crowd either.  But to each their own.

There is no 200gr Gold Dot. Also, when I tested the 180 gr Gold Dot at 1,317 (pretty much exactly where Underwood loads them), it failed to meet minimum penetration requirements. The 180 gr XTP which was just a bit slower hit 13.25". It seems to me that the XTP has more moderate expansion than the Gold Dot in some situations. Still, I think the 165 gr Gold Dot is well suited for defense. I'll have to verify with continued testing, but it looks like the 200 gr XTP will be a good choice for large animal defense.

Quote from: Raggedyman on December 29 2012 01:37:43 PM MSTI tested the 180 gr Gold Dot at 1,317, it failed to meet minimum penetration requirements.

Depends on who you ask.

What do you mean? My test certainly might be flawed but no qualified expert in the field of defensive handgun use would ever recommend the use of a cartridge that falls well short of 12" of penetration.

I'm not going to get into qualified experts.  To do that we'ld all have to agree on who qualified experts are. 

What I do know for a fact is that Illinios State Police carried and developed 9mm 115gr +P and +P+ loads for quite a while through more than one big name manufacturer, and they don't generally penetrate much beyond 10" when they do (in gel).  I also know that 135gr Nosler bullets at ridiculous velocities from 10mm effectively and efficiently take whitetail deer and don't usually penetrate more than 10" in ballistic gel.  Dr. Martin Fackler said 8 inches penetration depth is more than enough the vast majority of the time against human adversaries.  And those are just a few examples of plenty.

When considering bullet penetration depth in ballistic gel, there are many things to consider aside from bullet penetration depth in ballistic gel.  Examples:  The average human torso is only 9.5" deep.  The average vital organ depth in any human is pretty much always far less.

The whole idea of the 12-18 inch penetration depth also takes much into account in terms of penetration depth still available AFTER a barrier of some sort is first encountered.  This is very important for some law enforcement departments/agencies, as with some of them a majority of their shots at perpetrators require the bullet to first pass through windshields and other car parts like the doors.  This is not important to me or many others who feel the same.

The 12-18 inch prefered penetration depth range was simply an opinion.  Plenty of people choose to subscribe to that opinion.  Nothing wrong with that.  Then there are others who have other opinions on the matter, like me.  Nothing wrong with that either.

It's no different than their being people who prefer a light/fast bullet, while others prefer a slow/heavy bullet, while others prefer something in between.  So who's wrong?  Very few to none in most cases.  Usually the whole spectrum will get the job done, just in different ways.  Light/fast penetrates less, but usually with more terminal performance outside the direct path of the bullet.  Heavy/slow penetrates further, but usually with less terminal performance outside the direct path of the bullet.  Then there are the in between options to mix it up between the opposite ends of the spectrum.

Also no different than some people prefering a through and through bullet hole, while others prefer a bullet that goes in and doesn't continue out the other side.  Some people prefer a large caliber like .451 and others smaller bullets that go faster and tend to penetrate hard barriers better.  Again, just different schools of though with hardly any wrong answers.     

This is going to sound harsh but please understand  it's not personal.

Opinions are absolute crap. Preference is likewise crap. How a bullet performs on a skinny animal standing still with no barriers or limbs in the way and an ideal angle through the thoracic cavity is completely irrelevant. What matters is what people have found in detailed research of the matter. People like Dr. Fackler, as you mention, as well as Dr. Roberts and a few others have spent their entire career studying what bullets do in HUMAN bodies.

Yes, it is true that 8" is often enough. In fact, just displaying a handgun often precludes the necessity of using it. Moreover, being alert and avoiding conflict can almost always prevent the need for a handgun. I almost never get in motor vehicle collisions but I wear a seat belt to protect me in the unlikely event that I am in a collision. I carry a handgun to protect me in an even more unlikely event. It is absolutely ridiculous to take several steps to prepare for unlikely scenarios but stop short, saying "Oh, well THAT is less likely." It is likewise ridiculous to carry ammunition that is probably good enough. It is often the case that a person trying to kill you does not stand still and unaware like a deer. They often have arms stretched out toward you and your shots may need to traverse an oblique angle through the torso. Just passing through the outstretched forearm can easily account for 8" before the bullet even reaches the torso.

I'm fine with a man choosing whatever he likes for his own use. You're a grownup and this is still nominally a free country. I'm not fond of people saying this sort of thing where less informed users might read it and think it to be good advice. The nation's top LE organization recommends the use of ammunition that penetrates a minimum of 12". Ignoring this advice might work out okay but following it cannot possibly do you any harm.

Quote from: Raggedyman on January 01 2013 12:32:48 PM MST...please understand  it's not personal.

Agreed. 8)

QuoteOpinions are absolute crap. Preference is likewise crap.

Agreed, except for our own to ourselves as individuals of course. ;)

QuoteHow a bullet performs on a skinny animal standing still with no barriers or limbs in the way and an ideal angle through the thoracic cavity is completely irrelevant.

I'm not going to belabor this point beyond the following;  I don't think deer are skinnier than humans.  And when doing a drive deer are not always standing still and limbs and what not can be in the way.  All at the same time the idea is still an ethical kill.  Yes, this is still different than taking out an adversary for various reasons, but my original point still applies, at least in my own mind.

QuoteWhat matters is what people have found in detailed research of the matter. People like Dr. Fackler, as you mention, as well as Dr. Roberts and a few others have spent their entire career studying what bullets do in HUMAN bodies.

Yes, it is true that 8" is often enough.

Of course, and like you said, as I have already mentioned.

QuoteIn fact, just displaying a handgun often precludes the necessity of using it. Moreover, being alert and avoiding conflict can almost always prevent the need for a handgun. I almost never get in motor vehicle collisions but I wear a seat belt to protect me in the unlikely event that I am in a collision. I carry a handgun to protect me in an even more unlikely event. It is absolutely ridiculous to take several steps to prepare for unlikely scenarios but stop short, saying "Oh, well THAT is less likely."

Yet you still take the risk of driving at all, among many other risks we all take in everyday life that can easily send us off on a trip to the hospital.

QuoteIt is likewise ridiculous to carry ammunition that is probably good enough.

There are no guarantees.  I don't consider ammo I choose to be good enough.  Rather I consider it the best available in a cartridge and platform I am willing to carry.  Keeping the original intent of my opinion that 12" of penetration depth in ballistic gel is not necessary still holds true here, and to the extent I wouldn't call my opinion good enough, but rather exceptional.

QuoteIt is often the case that a person trying to kill you does not stand still and unaware like a deer. They often have arms stretched out toward you and your shots may need to traverse an oblique angle through the torso. Just passing through the outstretched forearm can easily account for 8" before the bullet even reaches the torso.

I fail to see that as a failure.  At that point the arm becomes useless, not to mention ANY further damage beyond the arm usually causing some amount of trauma.  Even a shot to the thoracic cavity is no guarantee even if you hit a vital organ. 

QuoteI'm fine with a man choosing whatever he likes for his own use. You're a grownup and this is still nominally a free country.[/b][/color]

I feel your pain.

QuoteI'm not fond of people saying this sort of thing where less informed users might read it and think it to be good advice. The nation's top LE organization recommends the use of ammunition that penetrates a minimum of 12".

Some of the nation's LE organizations recommend the 12-18 inch penetration depth range for other LE organizations, but not for the average citizen.  The point being that the nation's LE organizations don't recommend ammo to citizens at all.  There are simply citizens who choose to copy what they carry under the presumption that it's also best for themselves as average citizens.

What must also be kept in mind is that penetration depth in gel rarely correlates to penetration depth in people or animals.  As a matter of fact, shooting the same load into different areas of a human torso (straight on or not) will result in many different penetration depths depending on the different internal stuff each different bullet comes into contact with.

Note also that lighter higher speed bullets (especially in calibers smaller than .451 caliber) will commonly defeat hard barriers better than heavier slower speed bullets.  Do you assume you'll never have to penetrate barriers heavier than drywall and sheetmetal or windshields?  Point being, there are rounds that generally penetrate less than 12" of ballistic gel that will penetrate harder thicker barriers better than others that do penetrate beyond 12" in ballistic gel.  Is that not something to consider?  Keep in mind, most other barrier materials wouldn't be an objection either.  Also good to keep in mind once bullets have passed through certain barriers (this also can greatly vary by specific different bullet design) is the hollow point will not always act like a hollow point anymore, changing various theories that much further, and not necessarily toward the theory you adamantly subscribe to.

And all this not to mention greatly varying reasoning, even among LE organizations, as to what cartridge to choose in the first place, among many more arguements and disagreements of what bullet weight to carry in any of them, AND some LE still carrying rounds that don't penetrate 12" of ballistic gel.  Then you add in the fact of zero LE carrying 10mm, which only makes sense for reasons far beyond 12-18 inches of penetration depth.

QuoteIgnoring this advice might work out okay but following it cannot possibly do you any harm.

I disagree in many cases, some noted above.  At some point, no matter what cartridge common carry sized handgun platforms are chambered in you have potential to still be at a loss.  But no matter the risk, most of us still aren't going to attemp concealing an AK-47, right?  Right.

There is always give and take.  The way I'm seeing it is you feel your opinion of others opinions that agree with your opinion is best for everybody, and if they choose a different choice they are just plain wrong.  I feel that my opinion of others opinions that agree with my opinion is best for me and some others who choose to agree with me.  You demand your opinon as best for all no matter what they think because you aren't interested in them thinking for themselves because you think you know best, and think my opinion, where it applies, is nothing less than nonsense.  Here we are left with no other choice but to agree to disagree.  And we pretty much said as much already.

As near as I can tell you're taking a very generalized stance and believe it to hold true for the vast majority of circumstances and for all others if they have any sense at all.  I look at the whole picture, with myself as an individual included in that picture.  For me that equates to carrying 10mm Auto, even though police don't.  It also equates to me choosing 155gr hollow point bullets at 1500fps or higher, even though police don't for reasons outside of penetration depth, and that don't penetrate beyond 12" in bare gel.  It also equates to others not subscribing to the same 12" minimum theory you do.  I believe my choice is an excellent choice based on what I've seen, heard, and compared, even by the so called experts.

If I need more than that outside of woods carry where I only carry a heavier bullet load when in bear country, hopefully I'll also have proximity to a rifle or shotgun.  If not, let the cards fall where they may.  Sometimes that's just the way it is.  At any given time no one can evade all possible scenarios, no matter how common or rare, with a handgun of common carry size with any available ammo in existence.  At the same time anyone would be hard pressed to tell me my decision is anywhere near poor, let alone not as good a choice as any other commonly available.  At the same time I have no issue with you choosing what you feel is best for you.

Sometimes there's more than one way to skin a cat, and other options aren't always worse.  The really scary part for all of us is that nothing is guaranteed no matter what we plan for or the theory/opinion subscribed to.

This isn't my opinion. I'm not qualified to form an opinion on the subject. I am simply relaying the findings of people much more educated than I am. They all agree that 12" is the minimum. I didn't make that up. It's not relative. It's educated assessment based on studies of THOUSANDS of actual shootings as well as gelatin testing. Which brings us to your statement about ballistic gelatin. That's simply not true. Calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin produces results which are VERY consistent with actual human or porcine tissue. It is true that bone can effect the projectile's path, amount of upset, and penetration. Even when bone is struck, though, most pistol rounds reach close to the depth they would if bone were not hit. Dr. Roberts is very clear on the fact that calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin comes very close to predicting the results seen in human or porcine tissue. That doesn't mean that my gelatin is as useful. I don't use exactly the same stuff and it's possible that could generate some discrepancy.


I realize I'm not going to convince you but I urge anyone else reading this to read the papers published by Fackler, Roberts, and others and to familiarize yourself with the reasons for the penetration requirement. May God bless you and yours.

Quote from: Raggedyman on January 04 2013 10:05:02 AM MSTCalibrated 10% ordnance gelatin produces results which are VERY consistent with actual human or porcine tissue.

Even when bone is struck, though, most pistol rounds reach close to the depth they would if bone were not hit.

Dr. Roberts is very clear on the fact that calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin comes very close to predicting the results seen in human or porcine tissue.

I urge anyone else reading this to read the papers published by Fackler, Roberts, and others and to familiarize yourself with the reasons for the penetration requirement.

May God bless you and yours.

I agree, in that it would be very helpful at this point to reference papers by Fackler, Roberts, and others, since it should be clear to everyone that calibrated 10% gelatin does not come very close in predicting the results seen in human bodies as a whole.

We know this from their own work published in their own journal.  That would be the journal of the IWBA (International Wound Ballistics Association), where under Wound Ballistics Review (Winter/91, p. 10-13), Eugene J. Wolberg did some research and put the findings in a writeup he called;  Performance of the Winchester 9mm 147 Grain Subsonic Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet in Human Tissue and Tissue Simulant.

With the sole load mentioned above, the penetration depth in gel ranged from 12-14 inches.  The penetration depth in 27 bodies via shootings of the San Diego Police Dept ranged from possibly under 10 inches to possibly over 17 inches.  On top of that, I was using the terminology possibly because they did not count any shot that exited the bodies, or any shot that hit bone.

Just from the above info alone it is beyond my comprehension that an expert like Dr. Roberts would ever claim calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin comes very close to predicting the results seen in human or porcine tissue.  Not to mention in my mind that common sense tells us otherwise.

Gelatin blocks prepared correctly are homogeneous, where as living humans are heterogeneous.  Differences in density and composition of human tissue such as bone and dense organs (like the liver) pose problems for the gelatin model.  Further, gelatin lacks the structure of tissue.  Gelatin doesn't bleed or have nerves or vessels. In addition, the human anatomy contains organs, muscle, and fat and is supported by a skeleton.

I believe it to be also worthy to note our hide, and its effects on doing its best to keep stuff like projectiles out, while also doing its best to keep stuff in.  Very loosely, penetrating our hide is equal to around 2" penetration depth in muscle tissue.  Also very loosely, exiting our hide is equal to around 4" penetration depth in muscle tissue.  I say very loosely because depending on a person's age, our hide ranges in thickness and what it takes for anything to penetrate or exit it varies accordingly.

I'm hoping what I've pointed out clearly demonstrates that the distance a projectile penetrates can be entirely different between a block of calibrated ballistic gel, and that of a person.  Fackler's recipe of ballistic gel ONLY approximates muscle tissue.  It takes nothing into account for all the other stuff our bodies are made from.  And since, as pointed out earlier, gelatin lacks the structure of tissue, it doesn't even give us a good comparison in relation to temporary cavity.

Please understand I am in no way suggesting properly calibrated ballistic gel does not give us any good information, as it does!  What it's simply limited to is showing us an excellent comparison of all ammuntion loads, one to another, and more specifically what depth they should penetrate relatively closely to in muscle tissue of people and swine.  But also please understand it only loosely (at best) correlates to bullet penetration depth in people and/or animals.

It should also be noted that not all researchers agree with Facklers recipe of gel which is 10% gelatin at 4*C.  Others believe a ballistic gel recipe of 20% gelatin at 10*C is a better alternative.  Both of which of course must be calibrated before use.  Lastly, all agree that gelatin blocks used for ballistics testing are only good for one shot.

Eugene J. Wolberg himself noted;  "It (correctly prepared gelatin simulant) is most useful in separating out the grossly inadequate bullets:  those that penetrate only 6 or 7 inches, or SP/HP bullets that do not expand adequately."

Excellent reading for a greater understanding of ballistic gelatin, some of which details what I've posted above, include:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf)
Notice the Editor's Comment by Martin L. Fackler himself in the above link where he only brings up LEAs toward use of the data, not general civilians.

http://nldt2.arl.psu.edu/documents/ballistic_gelatin_report.pdf (http://nldt2.arl.psu.edu/documents/ballistic_gelatin_report.pdf)

http://ssf1910.dk/document/info/balistik.pdf (http://ssf1910.dk/document/info/balistik.pdf)

There are of course many other references to ballistic gelatin that can be found, and easily referenced from the references given in all of the above links.

Assuming a person's risk assessment dictates, there is no reason not to consider loads that penetrate an average of 10" in ballistic gelatin.

Looked to me like that 200gr Black Talon did pretty well, but didn't mushroom as far as I would have liked to have seen.  Luckily is has the talons.  Thanks again for sharing all these tests you're doing! 8)

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency

Quote from: Raggedyman on January 05 2013 06:05:45 PM MST

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency

I feel like everything you intended to post isn't there?

Yeah, I have no idea what happened there.

"The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency

ETA: FUUUUUU!

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency…a good reason was found and when the exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a valid tissue simulant.

--“The Wound Profile & The Human Body: Damage Pattern Correlation.” (Martin L Fackler, MD, Wound Ballistics Review, 1(4): 1994; 12-19)

I'll bet the Talon would have done better at 100 fps or so faster. Is there a 200 gr .400" Ranger T available as a component?

I still have 19 of my original box of Black Talon 20 ct.  I shot a wounded deer with that one to finsh it off.  I shot it at the base of the skull, the bullet traveled accross to the other side of the neck and downward to the farside shoulder.  The bullet left a nasty spiral path of destruction down the neck muscels and lodged in the shoulder blade of the far side.  The talon opened up as advertised, with those claws out stretched...Factory velocity was about 980 fps from a 5"BBL.

10mm hand load fired from EAA Witness through four layers of denim. 155 gr Barnes TAC-XP over 8.0 gr of 800-X, new Starline brass, Winchester LP primer. Data is noted in the video and in video description.

Another nice video, thanks... 8)
Do you think you will go to 8.4 grains? Or even more?   ;D

If the case has the room and I don't see any pressure signs as I work up. So far it looks good.

I'm interested to see how the all copper behaves vs. lead core bullets as velocity increases. You often see reduced penetration with lead JHPs as the velocity increases and I've heard with all copper HPs penetration is proportional to velocity.

Quote from: Raggedyman on January 22 2013 09:59:12 PM MSTI've heard with all copper HPs penetration is proportional to velocity.

To a degree, yes.  Overall, no.

Still, I'm interested to find out.

Me too.

Video:




10mm Underwood 135 gr Nosler JHP fired from EAA Witness 4.5" barrel through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 591.4 fps, 3.3"

Impact velocity: 1,568 fps
Penetration: 7.9"
Retained weight: 80.4 gr
Max expansion: 0.745"
Min expansion: 0.529"

I also posted tests of 9mm 115 gr Hi-Shok and .22lr Aguila 40 gr Interceptor to my channel. In addition to that, I tested the PPU 180 gr JHP bullets over a hand load as well as hand loaded 155 gr TAC-XP. I wasn't able to get good pics of the wound channels so I decided not to post the video but here are the numbers and a couple pics:


I pulled the PPU 180 gr and loaded them right back into their own primed cases over 11.2 gr of AA#7, which generated 1,194 fps. It expanded to 0.668", max, and 0.617" min. Retained weight was 172.5 gr. Unfortunately, it curved down a bit and rode along the table, coming to rest at about 18 3/4". I don't believe this to be the real penetration depth, though.

I also shot a 155 gr TAC-XP loaded over 8.2 gr of 800-X. That generated 1,192 fps and penetrated 14.2". Retained weight was 154.8 gr. Max expansion was 0.759" and min was 0.481". I couldn't get any good pictures of the wound track so I decided not to post a video but I consider the numbers to be accurate.


(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/122/img1478e.jpg)

Now thAT Underwood load I liked!

Doesn't mean I'll stop reloading my 10mm, though.

Not Underwood. ;)

I wasnt talking about the last post, I was talking about the last Underwood test. Sorry it didn't come out right away which test I was referring to.

Quote from: gandog56 on April 04 2013 01:23:17 PM MDT
I wasnt talking about the last post, I was talking about the last Underwood test. Sorry it didn't come out right away which test I was referring to.

Derp. My bad. Sure would be nice if Kevin could get a hold of a bunch of HST to load.


I know I sometimes sound like a broken record on the penetration thing but 11" from the 155 gr XTP is not adequate in my opinion.

Well Underwood had 150 boxes of their 180 gran TMJ's up, I got two boxes of it to try. 0 before hey ran out.

But do you know that this is only the second and third boxes of loaded 10mm ammo I ever bought. Must have shot a few thousand of my reloads.

10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4kiwUyIuTY)



10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 600.8", 3.5"

Impact velocity: (Err), 1,425 fps
Penetration: 8.6", 8.6"
Retained weight: 129.3 gr, 122.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.848", 0.882"
Min expansion: 0.794", 0.702"

(http://imageshack.us/a/img39/2324/img1575n.JPG)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/1489/img1578ja.jpg)



10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U90UsPS7oHs)




10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 582.9", 3.25"

Velocity: 1,076, (Err)
Penetration: 14.8", 15.5"
Retained weight: 193.8 gr, 192.7 gr
Max expansion: 0.704", 0.679"
Min expansion: 0.662", 0.572"

(http://imageshack.us/a/img818/600/img1570w.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img201/361/img1571mr.jpg)

Makes me glad I have 250 of those noslers on my shelf.

Quote from: Raggedyman on April 24 2013 12:43:50 PM MDT10mm CORBON 135 gr Pow'RBall fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 600.8", 3.5"

Impact velocity: (Err), 1,425 fps
Penetration: 8.6", 8.6"
Retained weight: 129.3 gr, 122.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.848", 0.882"
Min expansion: 0.794", 0.702"

Holy Pancakes! :o  I'm surprised they even held together as well as they did.

Quote from: Raggedyman on April 24 2013 12:43:50 PM MDT10mm Double Tap 200 gr Nosler fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 582.9", 3.25"

Velocity: 1,076, (Err)
Penetration: 14.8", 15.5"
Retained weight: 193.8 gr, 192.7 gr
Max expansion: 0.704", 0.679"
Min expansion: 0.662", 0.572"

Thanks a ton for checking the velocity!  Came out a little less than I was thinking and a little more than sqlbullet was thinking.  No question the velocity sucks though.

Now what I'ld really like to see are those 200gr JHP Nolsers at ~200 FPS higher velocity into the gel.  Maybe someday.

Put the two of you together and you've got a crystal ball. "When our powers combine...."

Atomic 10mm video (http://"http://youtu.be/3KbLafCnrH0")


10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"

Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
Penetration: greater than 17.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.

Don't know how those hex bullets do against barriers in the mix, but against the bare gel I'm fairly impressed.

Like I said in the other thread: it's not conclusive without the recovered bullet to analyze but it appears to me that the bullet failed. 17" is excessive for that weight and velocity so I think the petals folded back and separated relatively early. The .357 Hex that I tested the same day (on my YouTube channel if you want to see)  failed to expand entirely. Between those two results, I'm not impressed.

The Atomic .357's I sent down to you are 1300 FPS and should open up nicely instead of just keep going. They may also fail too though  :(

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 17 2012 10:05:23 AM MST
Right?

My CCW is a Glock 23. In my 10mm, which I OC, I'm really starting to lean towards a powderpuff 180 gr for personal defense. Something hotter than .40 but not by much. Say 1,100-1,150 fps. Gold Dots and others do a fantastic job at those speeds and less recoil means faster shooting. If I can get that 200 gr XTP to work right through denim, I'd like to use that for camping/hiking here in the low country. I've got high hopes for the Winchester JSP for deep penetration and moderate expansion and if that works I'd like to use that for high country carry. A 155 gr Gold Dot or 135 gr Nosler should work really well for hunting javelina or 'yotes.

I just chronographed Federal Personal Defense Hydra Shoks 180grain out of my 6" longslide and it came up with 1070 low side to 1074 on the low side. I have also run drills with these in my standard model 20 they are controllable and if they mimic any of the other well known Hydra-Shok loads should be great choice for a defensive round in the 10mm. I will run some with the standard slide on and post those results.

Standard model Glock 20 the velocity was 998 FPS average 6 shot string for the Federal Personal Defense Hydra-Shok

I would love to see hyper speed DRT 105 grain bullets in gelatin just out of curiosity. I carry what has a track record and is proven but it would be interesting to see that.

Quote from: Raggedyman on June 22 2013 10:15:13 AM MDT...it's not conclusive without the recovered bullet to analyze...

It will be cool to see how it works out if you get a chance to run that hex one again if the bullet stays in the gel.

Quote from: Ramjet on June 23 2013 11:15:31 AM MDTI just chronographed Federal Personal Defense Hydra Shoks 180grain out of my 6" longslide and it came up with 1070 low side to 1074 on the low side.

Standard model Glock 20 the velocity was 998 FPS average 6 shot string for the Federal Personal Defense Hydra-Shok

That's where it gets to the point nothing is beneficial over a standard 40S&W load.  At that point I just don't see the point anymore.

Quote from: Ramjet on June 23 2013 12:43:16 PM MDTI would love to see hyper speed DRT 105 grain bullets in gelatin just out of curiosity.

Me too.  I wonder if they reach 6".

Fragments might. Want some to try?

I have shot deer with the .223 it is impressive how they drop

Not really.  Appreciate the offer though!

I'm a little lost with the mention of .223.  What where you signifying with the mention of .223?

Hydrashock is an awful bullet and that 10mm load is weak sauce.

I wouldn't mind testing the DRT but it would be a while before I could get to it. Garauntee it will be less penetration than the 135 gr Nosler I tested.

I would agree it is a fragmenting bullet but the performance would be interesting as to the cavity and performance.

Dynamic Research Technology I have shot deer with there .223 load the same premise behind that bullet that is why mentioned it plenty of U-tube out there.  it might be good alternative of apartment dwellers where the issue of over penetration is of concern. Although you are entitled to you're opinion on the Federal load I will disagree with you. Plenty of two legged predators have been incapacitated with the 5.7 or 9MM or the tired and true 125 grain +p Remington load so a 180 grain expanding bullet .401 in diameter running close to 1000 FPS would be plenty for personal defense.  In any case I am not looking for long drawn out debate as I said everyone is entitled to their individual opinion and I respect that.

Send me PM I will send you 20 or so of the DRT bullets I have. I have not played with any loads so you are on your own on that part of it.

Quote from: Ramjet on June 24 2013 06:00:18 PM MDTDynamic Research Technology I have shot deer with there .223 load the same premise behind that bullet that is why mentioned it plenty of U-tube out there.

Thanks for elaborating.  Makes sense now. :D

I mean that the Hydrashok bullet often fails to expand. I'd like to test those DRT some time but I still have A LOT of catching up to do with what Intercooler has sent me. I also just had a baby boy and my Witness has a broken trigger bar. I will continue to perform tests but no more 10mm until the Witness comes back from the shop and I'm not going to be able to keep up the pace I set before. Anyway, here are today's tests:


Buffalo Bore 180 gr Sierra Power Jacket (http://"http://youtu.be/doj4RcToeQc")




10mm Buffalo Bore 180 gr Sierra Power Jacket fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"


Impact velocity: 1,311 fps
Penetration: 10.7"
Retained weight: 181.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.853"
Min expansion: 0.560"




Selway 180 gr JHP (http://"http://youtu.be/tTks647zosk")




10mm Selway 180 gr JHP fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"


Impact velocity: 1,105 fps
Penetration: 12.9"
Retained weight: 175.2 gr
Max expansion: 0.678"
Min expansion: 0.600"






10mm 180 gr Winchester generic JHP hand load (http://"http://youtu.be/XqbEOk75PXo")






10mm Winchester 180 gr generic JHP loaded over 10.0 gr of AA#7 fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.2 fps, 2.9"

Impact velocity: 1,106 fps
Penetration: greater than 16"
Retained weight: N/A
Max expansion: N/A
Min expansion: N/A

The bullet experienced significant fragmentation and deviated from its path, exiting the block at about the 16" mark. A second shot performed similarly.

Got my Witness back from the factory today. They replaced the broken trigger bar and "adjusted the barrel," whatever the hell that means. Faster turnaround than I expected. I think they had it about 3 or 4 days. I really expected it to take a couple months.

That means I can do the 200 gr Gold Dot next time I get a chance to go out, probably in a week or two tops. I'd like to test it at around 1,050 fps and around 1,200 fps. I'm pretty sure that a charge of 8.5 gr of 800X will get me a little under 1,200 fps but I'm not sure what I should do at the lower end. Anybody have some suggestions on how to play "Price is Right" with the speed of sound on a 200 gr projectile? I'd like to get as close as possible without going over and I don't have enough bullets to do a lot of workups, especially because I need to use several for working up the higher end. Rome, that's not a hint to send me more, I'm sure this will be enough, I just want starting points to be as efficient as I can. I have 800 X, AA7, and AA9. What loads do you guys think would let me get where I want with the least workup for that lower end?

Raggedyman, I can send you some more of them that Rome sent us for testing.

BTW 1088 feet per second = Mach 1.00049 = 741.8182 Miles per hour = 331.6224 Meters per second

We need to see a 1230 fps shot for the 200gr Speer Gold Dot
This will be around 9.2 grains of LongShot or 9.4 grains IMR800X

Test at 9.4 grains results...
Tested 8/16/2013 in the S&W1006 1265 fps / 710 ft lbs primer moderately flattened, Expansion 0.4290"
Limited Pro 4.75" 200gr Gold Dot 9.4gr's LongShot 1285, 1299, 1298, 1289, 1274. Average = 1289 FPS/ 738 LBS. Stout and accurate!

Limited Pro 4.75" 200gr Gold Dot 9.4gr's 800-X 1208, 1216, 1265, 1230, 1237. Average = 1231.2 FPS/ 673 LBS. Another nice one!

 
Sierra 10mm .400 180gr JHP Bullets 100 per box #8460
$27.40
Has anyone have any Experience at reloading Sierra bullets this is what the Remington factory 10mm looks like? How do they preform when velocities are cranked up?

Did you see the Buffalo Bore video? That's pretty cranked!

Thanks!

   Updated the sheet with the results. Everything marked "Sent"... is. I have some more here included the new Hornady Flexlock if you want me to send them. All the 9mm +P and +P+ plus too. Could I send (2) of my Underwood loaded Gold Dots that are 1160 FPS or you want to work a couple of yours up to that? I would love to see what these actually look like in gel.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E#gid=6

Thanks for all your work with the sheet. I think my ladder for the 200 gr GD should get to 1160 at least. I still have a lot of ammo to work through so let me get a little more caught up before you send any more.

Tested today but I won't get a chance to post video until tomorrow. Here's a teaser. The larger wound track is a 156 gr Lyman Devastator at 1,450 fps.


(http://imageshack.us/a/img690/2157/y552.jpg)


(http://imageshack.us/a/img845/6241/iqy3.jpg)


(http://imageshack.us/a/img38/3186/xoc9.jpg)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img690/2157/y552.jpg)

What was that movie lne?

You missed!
Yes, but that fly will never have sex again!

Devastating! :o    Would you trust these if nothing else was available?  Looking forward to the video!   8)

Quote from: The_Shadow on October 01 2013 10:13:41 AM MDT
Devastating! :o    Would you trust these if nothing else was available?  Looking forward to the video!   8)

What you did there. I see it.

I'll be posting the video shortly but yeah, I'd trust these. I weighed the chunk you see at 13.7" as well as all the fragments I strained out. There's about 100 gr missing. You can see a hole at about 13" where a chunk left the block. I believe that was the core. I'd like to test this load a couple more times. Was the velocity satisfactory?

I'm also curious to learn what load you ran the Devastators with...was it the Power Pistol data?  Did you see any leading?
I'll wait to view the jello shot video, I'm sure we will learn more as it rocked the blocks!  ;D

HP cast bullets for the win!

Confirms what many of us lead heads have thought for a long time.  I don't need a jacket even if it is cold outside! :P

Quote from: The_Shadow on October 01 2013 11:44:22 AM MDT
I'm also curious to learn what load you ran the Devastators with...was it the Power Pistol data?  Did you see any leading?
I'll wait to view the jello shot video, I'm sure we will learn more as it rocked the blocks!  ;D

9.5 gr of 800-X

10mm 156 gr Lyman Devastator hand load fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 587.3, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,450 fps
Penetration: 13.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

This bullet definitely lived up to it's name. Like the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. I just couldn't stop taking pics of this one. The deepest recovered fragment only weighed 22.5 gr and measured 0.616" x 0.307" x 0.110" but that fragment plus all the strained fragments (45.6 gr) only adds up to 68.1 gr, leaving 87.9 gr unaccounted for. If you look closely, you can see the mark where a fragment left the block at around the 13" mark, just before the last fragment that is in the block. I believe this to be the core, which should weigh in the neighborhood of 87 gr. Hopefully I can test again to confirm this.






10mm 195 gr Mihec cast LHP (shallow pin) fired from 4.25" S&W 1076 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 587.3 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,100 fps
Penetration: 26.6"
Retained weight: 192.2 gr

(no expansion)






9mm Underwood 115 gr Zero JHP fired from Glock 22 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 587.3 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 1,234 fps
Penetration: 18.6"
Retained weight: 92.5 gr

(no expansion)

Very nicely done once again!  :D

That block jumped up with the energy dump!   :o

Quote from: The_Shadow on October 01 2013 02:24:10 PM MDT
Very nicely done once again!  :D

That block jumped up with the energy dump!   :o

Thank you.


Energy dump?

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9j487oqbb1r2vq7do1_500.gif)

10mm 200 gr cast softened point fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin. The bullet was water dropped and then the point was softened by hitting it with a propane torch while the base of the bullet remained in a water bath. 16-18 BHN. I apologize for the quality of the video. My main camera failed to record and I didn't notice I had the backup set to low quality. Let me know if you like the angle, though because I was thinking about including this angle along with my normal format. At higher quality, of course.

BB: 588.7, 3.1"

Impact velocity:  1,140 fps
Penetration: 28.1"
Retained weight: 203.1 gr
No expansion

Thanks, Very nice!  Looks like the Speer 200gr TC SWC BB, No expansion, but plenty penetration!  They would be a great "Hog Hammer"! or a "Zombie Skull Ventilator"!

10mm Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"


Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 13.1"
Retained weight: 175.0 gr (counting the 2.0 gr rubber tip)
Max expansion: 0.652"
Min expansion: 0.566"







10mm 200 gr Mihec  fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"

Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 23.5"
Retained weight: 193.5 gr

No expansion

Fixed both of these links to play and show...Thanks again!

Thank you again, too. Caught me slippin'. Had a crying baby when I was trying to post.

  Sent you an email about sending a couple more for a try at 1300 FPS. Think it would make a difference?

I'm sure a higher velocity would change the results and I'm happy to test anything you send but I think it's mostly academic because these bullets are not available as a component and there are several really good bullets that are available as components.

Honestly, I think that the load is perfectly adequate for defense as is. Not everything has to be nookular.

True. I thought maybe with this one given it only opens to a certain size more speed would drive it deeper.


I agree... let's see what some of the others give  8)

That's a good point. It looked like the petals are sort of "braced" against the shank so that might keep it from opening up farther. It also looked so perfect it could have been an advertising photo. It could probably go quite a bit faster before it sheds any weight or otherwise fails.

  I will pick up a box and then save it until a later date for this testing.  ;D

$17.99/box special now exclusive at Cabela's

http://www.slickguns.com/product/hornady-critical-duty-10-mm-175-gr-flcd-20-rnds-1799

I've never thought much of jello testing for real world, too many variables in living tissue and none in jello.

My 140gr Barnes TAC XPD penetrated 4.5" of seasoned White Oak....but it tumbled in the wood, the hollow cavity filled with wood and bullet only bulged slightly. My 38 Super penetrated 4" with 124gr Barnes TAC XPD it tumbled in the wood, the hollow cavity filled with wood and bullet only bulged slightly. The PD round loaded with Zero 124gr JHP running standard 1930 1250 fps velocity penetrated 3.5" and mushroomed to 3/4" in process.

The wood was 3x6 post about 3/8" apart standing on end, the 38 Super JHP round left a big 3/4" dent about 1/8" deep and was unrecovered. It made me wonder what a 135 gr Nosler would do, but forgot to bring any of those 1600fps barn burners.

The 10mm was my Kimber TLE/RL I have for home defense and 38 Super is my Colt LWC that I carry daily. 

    I like it because it's hard to find any live volunteers  :o  You also can see some things in that media you can't in soap, wood, wax, wet pack, etc...

Quote from: Intercooler on November 17 2013 09:56:33 AM MST
    I like it because it's hard to find any live volunteers  :o  You also can see some things in that media you can't in soap, wood, wax, wet pack, etc...

I'll stick with testing on wildlife, junk cars/trucks, and wood blocks.  ;)

I will say that the 10mm & 38Super both knocked the 3x6x18 white oak (they had a third 1' block on top to keep proper separation) a kilter on the table and the 9mm almost didn't knock them down. The 10mm hit middle of lower half of block and kicked all blocks up into air, the 38 Super just got the one block air born after being hit almost dead center. 

I've never been attacked by cars or lumber.


While my testing is not performed in a laboratory and I don't conduct enough test shots for a statistically relevant result, I strive to achieve the best accuracy that can be expected from a layman in these conditions. I do not use "jello". I use calibrated 10% gelatin. It is FAR more dense than jello. The experts consider it to be the ONLY medium that can produce results useful for predicting the terminal behavior of bullets. What that means is that although my own tests are not as dependable as professional lab tests, they are far more relevant than "testing" conducted with chunks of wood, buckets of mud, wet pack, etc. Generally speaking, my results are also probably more relevant than tests conducted in Simtest or Cleargel, though those results are usually consistent with my own. It's even fair to say that my tests are more accurate than some other laymen gelatin tests because I post my calibration results, whereas a lot of guys don't.

But don't take my word for it; I'm just some dude on teh interwebz. This is what the experts have to say about the relevance of properly conducted ballistic gelatin tests:

Quote
"The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg's material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved
shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy
results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had
collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets
fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both
human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based
ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting
incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly
conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of
projectiles in actual shooting incidents." - Dr. Roberts



"The test of the wound profiles validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue
interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body.  Since most shots in the human body
traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the
tissues traversed.  However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the
projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its
overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots
traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close
approximation to the wound profiles.

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw
patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and
reliable.  Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency a good reason was found and when the
exact circumstances were matched, the results matched.  The cases reported here comprise but a
small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a
valid tissue simulant." - Dr. Fackler

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 26 2013 04:19:33 PM MST
I've never been attacked by cars or lumber.

That's a good one, I enjoyed it as I assume it was in jest. I have been attacked by them and I have had the splinters and busted knuckles to prove it youngster.   :))

While my testing is not performed in a laboratory and I don't conduct enough test shots for a statistically relevant result, I strive to achieve the best accuracy that can be expected from a layman in these conditions. I do not use "jello". I use calibrated 10% gelatin. It is FAR more dense than jello. The experts consider it to be the ONLY medium that can produce results useful for predicting the terminal behavior of bullets. What that means is that although my own tests are not as dependable as professional lab tests, they are far more relevant than "testing" conducted with chunks of wood, buckets of mud, wet pack, etc. Generally speaking, my results are also probably more relevant than tests conducted in Simtest or Cleargel, though those results are usually consistent with my own. It's even fair to say that my tests are more accurate than some other laymen gelatin tests because I post my calibration results, whereas a lot of guys don't.

But don't take my word for it; I'm just some dude on teh interwebz. This is what the experts have to say about the relevance of properly conducted ballistic gelatin tests:

I don't need to take your word about it as I've known about proper testing procedure firearm for over 40 plus years and that includes "jello" ballistic testing. I was using humor there incase it went over your head or somehow missed it by reading to fast or incompletely. Maybe I should have used the smilies, I often failed to use them so as to be sure people know humor without it having to slap them in the face. I will try to be more careful and use them in the future.(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x245/oldnavy6393/tongueout.gif) (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/oldnavy6393/media/tongueout.gif.html) 

Quote
"The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg's material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved
shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy
results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had
collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets
fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both
human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based
ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting
incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly
conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of
projectiles in actual shooting incidents." - Dr. Roberts



"The test of the wound profiles validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue
interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body.  Since most shots in the human body
traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the
tissues traversed.  However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the
projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its
overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots
traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close
approximation to the wound profiles.

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw
patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and
reliable.  Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency a good reason was found and when the
exact circumstances were matched, the results matched.  The cases reported here comprise but a
small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a
valid tissue simulant." - Dr. Fackler

But it was I assure all in jest so relax and go with the flow. The reason we were shooting blocks and cars later was to show a friend how little protection a door of a car or the wood frame and drywall house he lives in would offer him and we had a lot more fun doing it then chronograph checking loads or looking at long deep holes in 10% ordnance gelation.  Unless that's what flips your skirt up.;)

10mm C.O.P. 155 gr all copper hollow point fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 602.8 fps, 3.0"

Impact velocity: 1,008 fps
Penetration: 10.2"
Retained weight: 153.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.776"
Min expansion: 0.455"

10mm Littlestone 155 gr Barnes XPB fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 585.6 fps, 3.7"

Impact velocity: 1,128 fps
Penetration: 12.8"
Retained weight: 155.3 gr
Max expansion: 0.751"
Min expansion: 0.470"

Thanks for the video, I liked the way the denim lands on the chrono... LOL  ;D

The COP's IC sent were reworked using BB loading @ 1475 fps, I was amazed by the loading BB are using in their offering...  8)

Did you actually chrono those or are you going by their numbers? Wonder what powder if that's true they use? I'm not out in my shop at the moment but I tried two powders and could not get enough powder in case and still get a bullet seated enough to fit the magazine to get close to that number. I used PP for one I think, but winter weather set in and best I remember I was in 1100fps range at best load. A 30% plus increase over my load seems unrealistic to me, but I'm no expert. 

I tested the BB version plus Shadow's version. Both were 1400 FPS + and Raggedyman has them both for testing.

They both might shock us some!

I was going to load a few more today but things came up. Maybe tomorrow.

Here is what IC got from the reworked COP 155gr All Copper HP's using 11.0gr's Power Pistol (Buffalo Bore load) 1422, 1435, 1456, 1413. Average = 1431.5 FPS/ 706 LBS. Really happy with this level of performance and would love to see them in gel!

I have to admit I'm a little apprehensive about shooting them. We'll see how I feel after working up a little higher with 155 gr TAC-XPs.

Buffalo Bore swears theirs is inside the SAAMI MAP as loaded...I'm still trying to get out to the shooting range.

According to Quickload they are correct.  Right at the max, but not over.

Greg

Hey post a screen shot or send it to me and I'll post it of the 11.0 grain Power Pistol load and 155 Barnes TAC-XP.
It would be nice to view the pressure profile!   8)

Quote from: The_Shadow on January 04 2014 07:56:06 PM MST
Hey post a screen shot or send it to me and I'll post it of the 11.0 grain Power Pistol load and 155 Barnes TAC-XP.
It would be nice to view the pressure profile!   8)

I emailed the quickload info.  I made the mistake of thinking of a lead bullet. The Gold Dot 155g looked great.


I don't know how they could squeeze 11g of power pistol under that copper slug.  Pressures are showing way high and a 72% compressed charge.  You guys can play with that one, I'll watch from a distance ;D

Greg

  The COP version should be less compressed due to a shorter bullet. I think  ???

Copper is less dense than lead, which leads to a bigger volume to get the same weight. 

Quickload shows the Gold Dot at .540" length.

Barnes shows .732" length.

Was one of these actually torn down to get powder type and weight? 

Since I don't have $400 guns to test handloads with I think I'll join Geeman also. I do know with the Barns all copper HP the bullet is too long to get more then what I was using (about IIRC 7g PP) and seat bullet reep enough to allow them to properly fit into magazine. Due to their wide mouth they have to seat deeper in the case to fit in the magazine's and that don't leave a lot of room because the Barn's 140g HP is longer then my Hornady 180 and maybe tad longer then the 200gr but don't have any of those loose to measure to be sure.

On the up side I went to gun show yesterday and bought two boxes of 100 each new Starline NP brass for $28 total and that's about half of what the last batch cost me from Mid-Way USA. Too bad that was all he had, but hey that more then replaces brass lost over the last couple years in the grass at the range. ;D 

Both pull-downs are in there. The COP bullets are shorter according to the data.

Quote from: Intercooler on January 05 2014 07:09:53 AM MST
Both pull-downs are in there. The COP bullets are shorter according to the data.

Ok, I looked.  You guys have put together one heck of a resource here.  I think we all owe a big thank you to shadow, intercooler, and raggedyman for the work you have done.  THANK YOU!!!!

I found the Gold Dot 155g in the Georgia arms load and it shows a length of .5505"
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/155GDw11grPP_zps53aceb95.png)

The tear down of the BB 155g TAC-XP shows a length of .7340".

http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/buffalo-bore-barnes-155gr-tac-xp-pull-down/

I need to stop posting half cocked and not understanding exactly what the subject matter is. 

I plugged in the exact info into Quickload for the BB load and it shows max pressure of 147,750 PSI and a 68% compressed load.  That big pellet of powder from shadow's tear down supports that high of a compression.  It also show a velocity of 1850 fps out of a 5" barrel. 
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/155Barnesw11grainsPP_zps335c2dce.png)


I think its certain that that pellet of powder isn't burning in a traditional sense, and the Quickload data is not going to work out because of it.  I think its more like a progressive burn like a rocket would have, where the powder mass is carried down the bore and burning toward the core.

I'm not going to try to play with this type of loading.  The difference between running a standard primer and a magnum primer is uncharted territory and if anyone is going to try and duplicate it, be very, very careful.

Greg

I added the screen shots from Greg to his post... The Shadow

Yes it was compressed so much I had to chip it out of the casing as you can see the tightly packed pellet that came out.  I broke that up before reloading it back for testing.  IC has tested the COP that I matched to BB specs. using PP from my supply and the data matches BB performance.

Geeman, For some reason the pictures didn't come through for the screen shots.

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 26 2013 04:05:25 PM MST

Wow....that Norma load really penetrated. It rocked the gel too!

I would like to come to your range to do some coyote hunting.  8)

Quote from: The_Shadow on January 05 2014 09:05:53 AM MST
Geeman, For some reason the pictures didn't come through for the screen shots.

I tried forwarding in a word doc this time.  Let me know if you don't get it.

Greg

I was able to extract the screen shots from Greg's document and load them into my Photobucket, then add them to his original post as pictures.  I don't feel the pressure values are correct in the QL estimations for the longer Barnes Bullet calculations.  I will say this is the kind of depiction that will have you scratching your head and flinching as you pull the trigger...... :o

Thanks for sharing the data Greg!

Quote from: The_Shadow on January 05 2014 10:14:52 AM MST
I was able to extract the screen shots from Greg's document and load them into my Photobucket, then add them to his original post as pictures.  I don't feel the pressure values are correct in the QL estimations for the longer Barnes Bullet calculations.  I will say this is the kind of depiction that will have you scratching your head and flinching as you pull the trigger...... :o

Thanks for sharing the data Greg!

I absolutely agree with that.  Powder is traditionally ignighted with the primer so all, or at least most of the kernels are started at the onset.  I believe the compressed pellet is ignighted as a unit, burning toward the core as it moves down the barrel.   

Quickload won't take that into account, but my uneducated guess is that's what is happening.

Greg

Quote from: 4949shooter on January 05 2014 09:11:13 AM MST

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 26 2013 04:05:25 PM MST

Wow....that Norma load really penetrated. It rocked the gel too!

I would like to come to your range to do some coyote hunting.  8)

It's near Table Mesa. I've seen a couple coyote out there when bunny hunting but it's a pretty heavily used area for shooting, hunting, off roading, horse back riding, etc. Probably have better luck calling near Bloody Basin. Definitely something I want to try. I've got a great rifle for the purpose. Maybe this year....



(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/6809/ompi.jpg)


For reference, I haven't measured the C.O.P. bullet as a component but a 155 gr TAC-XP is longer than a 200 gr XTP at 0.737" for the TAC-XP and 0.676" for the XTP.

That's a nice calling setup. Definitely not legal in NJ!

I just came from my shop after checking my manual and measurements on first try of 140 gr Barnes SCHP was 7.5gr of WSF by Winchester. I decided to see where the Barnes 140gr SCHP bullet seated and max amount of PP w/o compressing and it was 10.5g of powder.

I loaded a few at 10gr to try, but weather has put the kibosh on that idea for a while I guess. Over night low predicted to be -1 and 6 degrees for high tomorrow, think I need to be further south.

Retired Squid, they will be nice shooters at 10.0 grains of PP.  I think they will be about 1300-1325 fps, 8.0 grains PP gave 1225 fps for the 140's when I was doing my initial test.

i'll be looking for your post and range report... 8)

Quote from: 4949shooter on January 05 2014 03:23:47 PM MST
That's a nice calling setup. Definitely not legal in NJ!

LOL, no. I had in mind a sort of 3-gun/SPR type mission for it but it would probably be great for 'yotes. I know this isn't the best group ever, especially for teh interwebz where everyone shoots 0.25" groups with their Yugo M59/66 at 500 yards but this is my best group yet with that rifle. Ammunition was 69 gr Nosler partition over 24.0 gr AA2460 and LC brass with Wolf primers. Distance was a laser ranged 104 yards.

(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7882/04cn.jpg)

Quote from: The_Shadow on January 05 2014 03:51:46 PM MST
Retired Squid, they will be nice shooters at 10.0 grains of PP.  I think they will be about 1300-1325 fps, 8.0 grains PP gave 1225 fps for the 140's when I was doing my initial test.   I was guessing 1300-1350fps range so that will be about right for proper expansion in a hog or deer.  8)

i'll be looking for your post and range report... 8)  Don't hold your breath my friend, likely to be a while before weather warms up enough.  :(

The weather here is wet raining and wind is blown as the cold front is coming, we will be 19 degrees Tuesday morning.  To some this isn't all that cold till you factor in the Louisiana/Gulf humidity that lets the temps cut threw you like a knife down here.  Temps swing from 65 today to freezing

Quote from: The_Shadow on January 05 2014 06:37:50 PM MST
The weather here is wet raining and wind is blown as the cold front is coming, we will be 19 degrees Tuesday morning.  To some this isn't all that cold till you factor in the Louisiana/Gulf humidity that lets the temps cut threw you like a knife down here.  Temps swing from 65 today to freezing

Tonight's low of -21F air temp.  Tomorrow's high supposed to to be -13F.

Wind chills -50 to -60.

I'm ready for spring.  Winter's been to long already.

Greg

I hate it when we have those 35 to 40 degree weather changes it sure fires up the arthritis something fearful, the normal 20 degree swings here is bad enough.  :o Man oh man why did I retire here instead of Gulf Coast???

nelson.jpg

70's here far as the eye can see. This is the time of year to get tests done. During the summer time I have to rush through them to avoid the blocks heating in the sun and sometimes I forget something or screw something up, invalidating a test. B E A utiful right now.  ;D

Next test can you run the Black Max rounds?

Quote from: Raggedyman on January 06 2014 08:43:15 AM MST
nelson.jpg

70's here far as the eye can see. This is the time of year to get tests done. During the summer time I have to rush through them to avoid the blocks heating in the sun and sometimes I forget something or screw something up, invalidating a test. B E A utiful right now.  ;D

Ouch...you have kick a man that's down.  ;)

Quote from: Raggedyman on January 05 2014 05:30:04 PM MST

Quote from: 4949shooter on January 05 2014 03:23:47 PM MST
That's a nice calling setup. Definitely not legal in NJ!

LOL, no. I had in mind a sort of 3-gun/SPR type mission for it but it would probably be great for 'yotes. I know this isn't the best group ever, especially for teh interwebz where everyone shoots 0.25" groups with their Yugo M59/66 at 500 yards but this is my best group yet with that rifle. Ammunition was 69 gr Nosler partition over 24.0 gr AA2460 and LC brass with Wolf primers. Distance was a laser ranged 104 yards.

(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/7882/04cn.jpg)

She shoots nice. Definitely take out a coyotes' brain stem with that!  ;D

Quote from: Intercooler on January 06 2014 09:18:22 AM MST
Next test can you run the Black Max rounds?

I don't see why not. I'd like to do a few more carbine tests, including .357 mag, 9mm, and .40 S&W but those will probably wait.

Cool! The 125gr is a frangible which in 10mm I don't think a video exists yet. Also the 140gr smokes along pretty good and is a General bullet. If you do the .357 and .44 Magnums they will be interesting too!

I'll have to check again but I'm not sure I have the .357 mag.

Quote from: Intercooler on January 06 2014 02:56:03 PM MST
Cool! The 125gr is a frangible which in 10mm I don't think a video exists yet. Also the 140gr smokes along pretty good and is a General bullet. If you do the .357 and .44 Magnums they will be interesting too!

I use a Precision Bullets 125 grain RFN bullet for my .357 Magnum. They are made for 9mm, but if you request it, they will size them to .38 special size (I believe to .358") on request for free. You just have to wait till they run a new batch of 9mm.