Can anyone say if it's true that the two 10mm platforms Kimber offers, the Stainless Target II and the Eclipse Custom II, offer the most barrel chamber support for the 10mm Auto cartridge over any other manufactuer in a bone stock platform that isn't an all out 100% custom gun?
This question is strictly in regard to semi-auto platforms. Of course a G2 Contender offers the most chamber support of platforms overall.
I can't find info suggesting otherwise, though I'm also far from familiar with all 10mm semi-auto platforms. I'm just speculating by what I've seen and heard on the WWW.
I can't say for certain. I think my Witness Match would be close.
The Kimber's I believe use a Wilson/Nowlin style ramped barrel. From a ramp/chamber support perspective there is no difference between this style 1911 barrel and the Clark/Para/Lissner(sp?) style. From an engineering perspective the Clark/Para/Lissner should be have slightly fewer stress points due to more radius cuts where it meets the frame.
I also don't know where Fusion or Dan Wesson would fall on this list. I would assume their ramped barrel offerings are going to have very similar support to Kimber.
Kimber
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/376260_417438601627511_483141763_n.jpg)
Match
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/528820_417438084960896_219795920_n.jpg)
1006
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/574751_417434138294624_1613917411_n.jpg)
Springfield Omega Left Dan Wesson RZ-10 Right
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/320301_417438838294154_575999649_n.jpg)
Witness Limited: 0.099"
Glock 20: 0.108"
S&W 1006: 0.130"
Kimber STII: 0.132"
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/396169_316195568418482_1115918004_n.jpg)
Colt Delta Elite Left Dan Wesson Razorback Right
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/528347_417434484961256_107247788_n.jpg)
Stock G20 Storm Lake G20 Colt Delta Elite
(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/564036_417439208294117_967176743_n.jpg)
The Match sinks the brass below the barrel edges deeper than the Kimber it looks. It's real hard to tell about the ramps of the two. It looks like the Kimber ramp extends more on the bottom of the brass but you would almost have to measure them side by side. The Kimber wall thickness is greater than any other.
Any chance you could get a single pic of the barrels (with a round in the chamber) from the STII, RZ10, and Elite, side by side together, and at the same angle of a shot you did with the Omega/RZ10 pic below?
Of special mention, whoever at Colt allowed a barrel chambered for 10mm Auto to be as unsupported as they are should be shot in the......nevermind.
Someone else got those pictures. I can take pictures for the ones I own.
I guess I should have known they weren't all your pics with the G20 barrel shots in there. :D
We definately need a better shot of the Kimber barrel support. Anyone?
I know we have at least 1 or 2 members who own these.
We now have great Kimber 10mm barrel chamber support pics, compliments of moodyxt!
After looking over the pics I don't believe any other 10mm semi-auto platform offers more chamber support than Kimber. It looks clear to me that there isn't even an aftermarket G20 barrel as good. Argueably equal, but not more supportive.
Thank you very much moodyxt for the pics!
First a family pic of at least some of moodyxt's collection;
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/photo5.jpg)
4 shots of moodyxt's Kimber barrel;
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/photo4.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/photo2.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/photo1.jpg)
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/photo3.jpg)
1 shot of various barrels from the moodyxt collection (Right to Left = Kimber Stainless Target II barrel, G29 stock barrel, G20 stock barrel, and Lone Wolf 6.6" threaded barrel);
(http://i1293.photobucket.com/albums/b600/REDLINE10mm/photo.jpg)
The 1911 fans that are interested in nuclear power 10mm Auto loads may want to give some serious thought to Kimber's offerings. That's assuming I'm not missing something that is over my head being that I'm generally not a 1911 fan and know little of the ins and outs of 1911 style platforms.
I think you are right the Kimber looks #1 with the Witness #2. I would buy a Kimber before a Delta but the front serations nailed my choice to the Dan Wesson.
Never really saw anything weird with anything other than a Delta at the range.
What do you mean by weird? Are you simply refering to case bulging via lack of support in the Delta chamber?
Yea. I gave the only 10mm Delta owner that has ever been there a couple of Underwood's and he made them into Delta Bulges for me :o
LOL. I shouldn't be laughing, it's not funny. :D That's just scary.
The first Kimber pic was of my STII. Total support IMO. That gun handled Swamp Fox's 200 grain 1325's with ease. No bulges from any ammo I shot in it.
Very good to hear. Now if the rest of the 10mm firearms manufacturers would follow suit the rest of us wouldn't have to rely on aftermarket barrels to safely handle hot loads.
Maybe this should be retitled or made a sticky.
Here is the new Rock Island 1911 10mm on the right:
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s480x480/270184_469731423064895_728965254_n.jpg)
Thanks for posting the pic of the RIA here for comparison.
This would be a great thread to sticky in regard to chamber support pics. And more pics could be added as time goes by.
If it would be considered for a sticky the thread could be renamed; 10mm Platform Chamber Support Pics
It will take a day or two but I will get pictures taken of my Caspian 6" and the STI Perfect 10.
Sean
Well, I had a photo of Kimber and Colt barrels, but none of my photos are showing on my Photobucket account. Odd? I'll post it later if my photos come back from cyber ether.....Seems to be working now...
(http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u142/tayninh1969/Firearms/KimbervsColt10mmbarrels-small.jpg)
Thinking about it, these pictures don't tell the whole story with regard to case head support. If the barrel hood and the head of the case don't line up, then the support will be less than these pictures indicate, as the case will move back against the breach face when fired.
Just a thought.
So you're refering to headspace?
Quote from: 475/480 on December 05 2012 05:28:40 AM MST
It will take a day or two but I will get pictures taken of my Caspian 6" and the STI Perfect 10.
Sean
Awesome. Looking forward to them.
Quote from: REDLINE on December 05 2012 11:43:00 AM MST
So you're refering to headspace?
Sorta...
I just mean if the chamber is reamed deep, then the amount of the head that is unsupported could vary a few thousandths when it is in firing position from when it is dropped in. I can take a barrel that appears to have poor support and make it look better by reaming the chamber a little deeper. It won't be better, but it will look better.
I don't know a good way to account for this.
The barrel's hood determines the lockup position in relationship to the breech face amd lugs as they sit in the slide. If the chamber is cut too deep then the free floating distance of the cartridge can change but only by the slop in the extractor hook, (this is why the 40's can be shot from the 10mm barrels) however the same amount of unsupport is the same!
Therefore by design the ammount of unsupport will remain the same unless the design of the barrel is changed to incorporate a steeper feed ramp and surround the chamber with more barrel metal.
But keep in mind the angle to which the cartridge is being feed, as it tips into the chamber this can cause feeding issues, concerning cartridge overall length and bullet nose shapes and designs.
So what about a looser overall chamber allowing more uniform expansion instead of concentration in one small area? Given that it will cause a loss of efficiency/lower velocity. Seems only the Kimber doesn't leave at least a small area at the feed ramp unsupported. Obviously I know nothing of pressure vessel physics. ;D
Still don't think you guys are getting what I am saying.
If the chamber is cut deep, then in the pictures we take support may look good. But, when the cartridge is being held against the breach face by the extractor it may not look so good, cause it would be seated as deeply.
You are correct Ed, a looser chamber will produce a lower peak pressure than a tight one. Same with the bore. Tight bore produces higher pressure than a loose bore.
Most pressure barrels that are used by the big boys to produce load data and velocity numbers for factory ammo have minimum spec chambers and tight bores. As a result, the velocity numbers don't hold up well in the "real world".
Sql I understand what you are saying. I think most, if not all, manufacturers/pistolsmiths cut and fit barrels to prevent this type of situation. It could be deadly, or just plain painful and ugly, for the shooter regardless of the caliber. Now if bubba got a hold of the barrel....
I will have to measure and report back what I find. Pretty sure mine vary a good bit (eg a couple thousandths).
I took 10 pictures and these are the best pics I could get with a Nikon Coolpix (useless camera).
L- STI 10 MM
R- Clark barrel from my Caspian 10MM LS
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/10MMChambersupport011-1.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/10MMChambersupport003-1.jpg)
Quote from: sqlbullet on December 05 2012 12:54:41 PM MST
Quote from: REDLINE on December 05 2012 11:43:00 AM MST
So you're refering to headspace?
Sorta...
I just mean if the chamber is reamed deep, then the amount of the head that is unsupported could vary a few thousandths when it is in firing position from when it is dropped in. I can take a barrel that appears to have poor support and make it look better by reaming the chamber a little deeper. It won't be better, but it will look better.
I don't know a good way to account for this.
Yes, what you're describing is headspace.
Looking at EdMc's picture above, the Kimber barrel looks like it has deeper headspace than the colt. The barrel hood looks like it's sticking up past the brass on the Kimber.
I should mention, the Kimber/Colt photo is one I pulled off the internet. I can't say for sure it's a Kimber barrel as I don't own one. I do own a Delta and the barrel looks like the one shown.
Quote from: 475/480 on December 06 2012 09:42:47 AM MST
I took 10 pictures and these are the best pics I could get with a Nikon Coolpix (useless camera).
L- STI 10 MM
R- Clark barrel from my Caspian 10MM LS
Have you tried the "Macro" setting on the camera? This allows the camera to focus on very close objects. If you can't find that feature (I don't know of a model that doesn't have it), or can't figure it out, try more distance and use the zoom to get it to focus the size you want. The Nikon cameras are usually very good, even the less expensive/featured models. The only complaints with the Nikons that I've heard of is they are "less oversimplified", compared the Kodak and Cannon cameras.
"less oversimplified"
LOL. I'll have to remember that.........apt description of the Cannon model we.... I mean... my wife uses.
Quote from: 475/480 on December 06 2012 09:42:47 AM MST
I took 10 pictures and these are the best pics I could get with a Nikon Coolpix (useless camera).
L- STI 10 MM
R- Clark barrel from my Caspian 10MM LS
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/10MMChambersupport011-1.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/10MMChambersupport003-1.jpg)
its not useless. I can see the handgun safety manual perfectly. Next time make sure the camera is focused on the subject matter. :)
Problem is it WAS focused on the barrel , you press down on the button and it auto focuses with the IR, the IR was on the barrel, USELESS , But I will try the macro setting.
Thanks,
Sean
[/quote]its not useless. I can see the handgun safety manual perfectly. Next time make sure the camera is focused on the subject matter. :)
[/quote]
The distance to the manual is the min distance that the auto focus can work. The macro setting is for the even closer focal range. Or, something like that. ;D Our Cannon says to use the macro on anything closer than six inches.
If the camera allows you to switch to SPOT focusing, that should do the trick for ya. It's not the only way to skin that cat, as others mentioned you can also switch it MACRO mode which should allow you to focus up to within about an inch or so (3 cm for my camera) of the camera lens. Or as has been mentioned, take a picture from further back which will allow everything to be in focus (2 things; in this case set your camera to it's max megapixel setting and crop it later if you care).
Also, to get the clearest (least graininess) pictures possible, if your camera allows you the option(s), set it to take pictures at any ISO under 200. This will in many cases force a longer shutter time, even to the extent a tripod would be required some of the time, but only rarely in good lighting. For example, with my camera it is very rare for me not to have my camera set at an ISO of 80.
The IR light does not tell the camera what to focus on, it simply illuminates an area that lacks enough lighting to focus normally, therefore you can take crystal clear pictures with the flash in otherwise complete darkness. On my camera you can turn the IR light off altogether. I don't know if your camera allows that or not.
now that we have figured out his camera settings ( :P) here is the chamber support offered by my Fusion CCO in 10mm.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img804/9118/img3851n.jpg)
Looks like a Delta barrel....?
Not so fast you have not sean my next set of pics. :o
Sean
Quote from: Deadguy on December 07 2012 02:30:53 PM MST
now that we have figured out his camera settings ( :P) here is the chamber support offered by my Fusion CCO in 10mm.
Quote from: EdMc on December 07 2012 02:38:17 PM MST
Looks like a Delta barrel....?
i believe they use Storm Lake
Quote from: Deadguy on December 07 2012 03:33:57 PM MST
Quote from: EdMc on December 07 2012 02:38:17 PM MST
Looks like a Delta barrel....?
i believe they use Storm Lake
Just to be clear; You are saying the pic you posted is a barrel from a Fusion CCO, and NOT from a Colt Delta Elite?
I ask for double clarification because, like EdMc brought up, that pic you posted is the spittin image of a Colt Delta Elite barrel. I was under the impression that the Fusion lineup in 10mm Auto had halfway decent chamber support at a minimum. Your pic would suggest as poor as poor gets in terms of chamber support. So if your pic really is of a Fusion barrel, clearly they offer entirely different amounts of barrel chamber support depending on the model firearm platform ordered from them.
Storm Lake may very well produce the barrels for them but that doesn't answer the question. For that matter, for all I know, Storm Lake may produce the barrels for the Delta Elite to Colt too.
Redline, yep, that is the barrel from the 10mm CCO I got from Fusion. Unmolested and in the condition I received it in from Fusion. I requested this type of barrel. It shoots the UA 180 grain Gold Dot DE loads, Scottsdale 180 grain TMJ, Double Tap 180/1305fps loads (Intercooler tested a few of those same loads for me) all with no issues. Only problem was the one round of PPU that I (and others) feel was a double charge.
The chamber may have been cut back and the mouth opened up for reliability in feeding in the 10mm CCO platform. It seems the Delta Elite is the only other 10mm 1911 using this barrel setup, and, coincidentally, has a similar lack of support. The longer cartridge, with the lack of a ramped barrel, may require this type of chamber to feed reliably. Just a theory, of course.
I think you're right, reliability being the reason. Like many things, compromises are made for what is thought most important as with production costs etc.
That's the Fusion. It's been pointed out before they lack support. Beats me why the choice was made to use something like that.
Quote from: Intercooler on December 08 2012 07:46:58 AM MST
That's the Fusion. It's been pointed out before they lack support. Beats me why the choice was made to use something like that.
the buyer of the pistol has the choice of ramped or conventional barrel setup. I chose conventional. In hindsight, I'm happy that I did. Over 2,000 true 10mm rounds later it's still going strong.
Shooting nuclear loads out of that pistol would be shooter elbow-wrist-hand suicide. ~650ft lbs of energy is more than enough to get the job done in a SD situation.
Quote from: Deadguy on December 08 2012 03:00:55 AM MST
Redline, yep, that is the barrel from the 10mm CCO I got from Fusion.
Quote from: Deadguy on December 08 2012 08:27:21 AM MSTthe buyer of the pistol has the choice of ramped or conventional barrel setup. I chose conventional.
Thanks for the clarification and explanation. For me, the reason I still wouldn't go with the conventional barrel is for the sake of a safety cushion against overcharged screwed up factory loads that made it out of the factory accidentially. Even the poor chamber support of the stock 10mm Glock barrels have far more support. But that's just me.
Quote from: REDLINE on December 08 2012 10:09:41 AM MST
Quote from: Deadguy on December 08 2012 03:00:55 AM MST
Redline, yep, that is the barrel from the 10mm CCO I got from Fusion.
Quote from: Deadguy on December 08 2012 08:27:21 AM MSTthe buyer of the pistol has the choice of ramped or conventional barrel setup. I chose conventional.
Thanks for the clarification and explanation. For me, the reason I still wouldn't go with the conventional barrel is for the sake of a safety cushion against overcharged screwed up factory loads that made it out of the factory accidentially. Even the poor chamber support of the stock 10mm Glock barrels have far more support. But that's just me.
it did happen to me. Lost a set of nice red cocobola grips and a mag.