I spoke with Bruce from MBW and he ended up doing a trial run of hi-tek coated bullets for me.
My RIA 52000 bbl slugged at .401" so I ordered some 200gr wfnpb's @ .402"
Even with the special order coating, Bruce got me my sized/coated bullets in less than 2 weeks--great service---there were 103 bullets in the box for me too.
They look great- sized right on .402" , the coating is nice and uniform too. They have 2 lube grooves (obviouly no lube on a coated bullet though) Length of bullet is .630" and meaplat measures .330" - he rates the bhn @ 22 (which is similar to beartooths/double taps 200wfn, but this has a larger meaplat than their .310")
Now for the "dummy round" info.
The bullet is very wide in the front and therefore in order to get a loaded round to properly "plunk" in the barrel it had to be 1.220" or less, any longer and it would not chamber properly. There is still .050" of full diameter bullet sticking out of the case mouth so the minimum length would be 1.180" before the ogive of the bullet would be inside the case mouth. --- at 1.220" they seem to feed fine when slowly letting the slide close, or hitting the slide lock release lever.
This seems to be a fairly new bullet for 10mm loading, I can't seem to find much reload data for it anywhere.
I plan to use aa no.9 powder and new star line brass....any reload recommendations would be appreciated.
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Quote from: Texashogman on July 18 2017 05:44:06 AM MDT
I spoke with Bruce from MBW and he ended up doing a trial run of hi-tek coated bullets for me.
My RIA 52000 bbl slugged at .401" so I ordered some 200gr wfnpb's @ .402"
Even with the special order coating, Bruce got me my sized/coated bullets in less than 2 weeks--great service---there were 103 bullets in the box for me too.
They look great- sized right on .402" , the coating is nice and uniform too. They have 2 lube grooves (obviouly no lube on a coated bullet though) Length of bullet is .630" and meaplat measures .330" - he rates the bhn @ 22 (which is similar to beartooths/double taps 200wfn, but this has a larger meaplat than their .310")
Now for the "dummy round" info.
The bullet is very wide in the front and therefore in order to get a loaded round to properly "plunk" in the barrel it had to be 1.220" or less, any longer and it would not chamber properly. There is still .050" of full diameter bullet sticking out of the case mouth so the minimum length would be 1.180" before the ogive of the bullet would be inside the case mouth. --- at 1.220" they seem to feed fine when slowly letting the slide close, or hitting the slide lock release lever.
This seems to be a fairly new bullet for 10mm loading, I can't seem to find much reload data for it anywhere.
I plan to use aa no.9 powder and new star line brass....any reload recommendations would be appreciated.
Gonna try a pic using tapatalk
Top is the 200wfn from montana @ 1.220", next is the 200wfn grizzly factory ammo @ 1.250", then a 180 berry's plated at 1.260" and finally a 180xtp @ 1.260"
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/25d9f9b9fbe5d5ef4e3a8154dfd0b4dd.jpg)
Texashogman, would you post a picture of just the bullet please?
Yep, the wider that the flat nose becomes the tipping angle becomes and the magazine can also pose an issue if the edges of the bullet nose rub the rounded curved forward portion of the inside. This is why the bullets were found to be loaded deeper on several pistol makes to improve the tipping angle and magazine fit. COL of 1.2400" is what some bullets required to get proper functioning. Seeing your bullets are 0.330" seating slightly deeper may be necessary as you have shown.
Accuracy will be depending on your free bore, truing or forcing cone section of the barrel and bullet fit and stabilizing.
With that bullet being 0.630" and being seated deeper, #9 powder will work, but LongShot will likely yield more velocity using way less powder in the long run.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 18 2017 07:39:03 AM MDT
Texashogman, would you post a picture of just the bullet please?
Yep, the wider that the flat nose becomes the tipping angle becomes and the magazine can also pose an issue if the edges of the bullet nose rub the rounded curved forward portion of the inside. This is why the bullets were found to be loaded deeper on several pistol makes to improve the tipping angle and magazine fit. COL of 1.2400" is what some bullets required to get proper functioning. Seeing your bullets are 0.330" seating slightly deeper may be necessary as you have shown.
Accuracy will be depending on your free bore, truing or forcing cone section of the barrel and bullet fit and stabilizing.
With that bullet being 0.630" and being seated deeper, #9 powder will work, but LongShot will likely yield more velocity using way less powder in the long run.
it should have more case capacity for powder than the 200XTP (by my calculations) and less bearing length ( due to the 2 lube groves) and length of the 200xtp is listed at .685" vs the .630" of this one
I don't have a pic on my phone of just the bullet, I'll get one tonight and post back
--- for now, you can see the lead/lube version of the same bullet on their website here : https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/10mm-lbt-200gr-wfn-pb/
I was surprised that I could not load it any longer than 1.220" as it would not "plunk" in my barrel chamber any longer than that ---I am assuming it is due to the WFN/ short ogive design --but the ogive is 82% of the overall diameter -- should be a hard hitter if it works well
any suggestions on amount of no.9 powder to try since there is no load data for this bullet anywhere that I can find???--- the 200 xtp shows 13.2 gr as max for no.9 (but its an entirely different bullet design) ----- I was thinking of starting at 12.2 gr and working up in .2 grain increments --- sound like a good start point ???
Yea, you could like stuff more to the point of compressing the #9 power. 12.5 -12.6 grains is likely a good loading...
Pics of the bullet and packaging (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/91a16cdfe3f39fe7d0d09f8db75cfd51.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170718/9d3f90cf090c6c0816ed080ffb85ab0e.jpg)
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I'm loading the same bullet but without the hi tek coating. I bought 100 sized .402 and 100 sized .401. The .402s wouldn't properly chamber in my G40 KKM barrel, my STI Perfect 10 nor my Dan Wesson Bruin. I resized the remaining .402s to .401 and ended up seating them to a COAL of 1.240 to fit all my pistol magazines. I'm using 9.5 grains of Blue Dot for an average velocity out of my STI Perfect 10 of 1196fps.
Nicke10mm had the throat opened up on his KKM barrel to function properly with the .402 sized bullets but I'm not gonna do that for my pistols. The Montana BulletWorks bullets shot a bit more accurately than the Beartooths in both my STI and my Dan Wesson. I haven't tired AA#9 because Blue Dot gives me what I need velocity-wise.
I have some history with the Beartooth 200gr WFN GC bullets and had developed some hunting loads with it. Just started using the Montana bullets about 4 months ago. Good company and I've been very happy with the owners and the quality of the bullet.
I too was given a choice between the coated and the plain bullet. In both aftermarket barrels and OEM Glock barrels the plain lubed bullet gave less leading and even then it was only near the muzzle of the Glock's. It was explained that the heating required to apply the coating softens the very hard 21 bhn bullet down to about 15 bhn. Neither was a bad choice but I reorded the lubed bullet. In all cases the bullet diameter is .401".
My favorite load and is quite suitable for deer or hogs is 8.6gr of Longshot with a CCI std primer, Starline case and with a LOA of 1.200". After a few hundred rounds it feeds and functions perfectly in all my Glock's. It does 1,165 fps in an OEM G20 and 1,220 fps out of an OEM G40. Offhand at 50 yards the groups are 6" or under.
A lighter load intended for field carry in the G29 and others is 7.5gr of Power Pistol (everything else is the same). It does 1,051 fps in an OEM G29, 1,094 in an OEM G20 and 1,144 fps out of an OEM G40. This load was also very accurate in all guns tested.
I shot the bullet with some aftermarket barrels but it is hard enough and well designed enough that it does not need them.
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Quote from: Spudmeister on July 19 2017 09:12:56 PM MDT
I have some history with the Beartooth 200gr WFN GC bullets and had developed some hunting loads with it. Just started using the Montana bullets about 4 months ago. Good company and I've been very happy with the owners and the quality of the bullet.
I too was given a choice between the coated and the plain bullet. In both aftermarket barrels and OEM Glock barrels the plain lubed bullet gave less leading and even then it was only near the muzzle of the Glock's. It was explained that the heating required to apply the coating softens the very hard 21 bhn bullet down to about 15 bhn. Neither was a bad choice but I reorded the lubed bullet. In all cases the bullet diameter is .401".
My favorite load and is quite suitable for deer or hogs is 8.6gr of Longshot with a CCI std primer, Starline case and with a LOA of 1.200". After a few hundred rounds it feeds and functions perfectly in all my Glock's. It does 1,165 fps in an OEM G20 and 1,220 fps out of an OEM G40. Offhand at 50 yards the groups are 6" or under.
A lighter load intended for field carry in the G29 and others is 7.5gr of Power Pistol (everything else is the same). It does 1,051 fps in an OEM G29, 1,094 in an OEM G20 and 1,144 fps out of an OEM G40. This load was also very accurate in all guns tested.
I shot the bullet with some aftermarket barrels but it is hard enough and well designed enough that it does not need them.
Thank you, that info helps alot...i will watch and see i how the hi-tek coating does in my ria barrel....did you try the .402" at all? Or just stick with the .401"?
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My pleasure Texas Hog Man. As SEP experienced, I feared the .402" bullet might be oversize for one of my chambers between a bunch of OEM and after market barrels. So I have stuck to .401" bullets. I have some past experience with other hard cast bullets that suggest the larger bullet will shoot better but won't fight the chambering issue.
BTW... I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with either the coating on the Montana bullets or the process they use to coat them (softens the bullets). We are not driving those 200gr bullets that fast. I did a lot of accuracy testing with a Glock 20 & Glock 29 with different barrels. The results suggested the coated bullets were a bit more accurate overall. The problem is the difference was within my personal margin of error. So while it is probably true, I went with the hard cast lubed bullet for the reasons mentioned. But to be fair, it was splitting hairs at best. Both are excellent bullets.
As an aside.... to look at the 200gr WFN bullet seated in the case it looks like a jammomatic kind of bullet. Rather, this and the Beartooth WFN bullet have been the least troublesome and best functioning bullets ever fired out of my 10mm Glock's.
Quote from: Spudmeister on July 20 2017 08:43:34 AM MDT
My pleasure Texas Hog Man. As SEP experienced, I feared the .402" bullet might be oversize for one of my chambers between a bunch of OEM and after market barrels. So I have stuck to .401" bullets. I have some past experience with other hard cast bullets that suggest the larger bullet will shoot better but won't fight the chambering issue.
BTW... I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with either the coating on the Montana bullets or the process they use to coat them (softens the bullets). We are not driving those 200gr bullets that fast. I did a lot of accuracy testing with a Glock 20 & Glock 29 with different barrels. The results suggested the coated bullets were a bit more accurate overall. The problem is the difference was within my personal margin of error. So while it is probably true, I went with the hard cast lubed bullet for the reasons mentioned. But to be fair, it was splitting hairs at best. Both are excellent bullets.
As an aside.... to look at the 200gr WFN bullet seated in the case it looks like a jammomatic kind of bullet. Rather, this and the Beartooth WFN bullet have been the least troublesome and best functioning bullets ever fired out of my 10mm Glock's.
Shot them today...well kind of.
I decided to start at 12.4 grains and work up....only shot the 12.4 grain loads and stopped--- I can tell you that at 1.219" , 12.4 grains of no.9 is max in my gun. I'll have to work backwards from there next time. No bellies, but flat primers with just a bit of extrusion around the pin.
From my 6" barrel that load produced 1290fps...was ok on accuracy, not great but not horrible
I'll see what I can do next time but I won't get back out for at least a month
TH Man,
You sure do get outstanding velocity out of that 6" barrel of yours. Probably where the pressure comes as well. No free lunch and 1,290 fps is really moving along for such a big bullet. I imagine if you back down in fairly small increments you'll find the proper mix of accuracy and pressure.
You are in for more fun. Sorry you have to wait a month to do it though.
Well, got back out to the range woth gun improvements and i gott say -wow!!
Went back and did a .2 grain ladder from 11.8- 12.6, ES was around 6 for the 11.8,12.0,&12.2 grain loads - the 12.4 went up to 12, and the 12.6 was at 21...12.6 is pretty much max for me...was starting to get flattened primers and slight primer flow...12.2-12.4 seems to be my accuracy node
Now for the -wow! Part....i have put in a flat bottom fps, upped my main spring by 1 pound, custom fitted an oversize firing pin to .001" under the fp hole, and increased my recoil spring by 2 pounds--- all this has helped reduce felt recoil but a nice side effect of keeping the slide closed longer is the increased muzzle velocity!!!! How about 1360fps (10' from muzzle) from a 200 grain wfn bullet!! Last time with the same charge I was hitting 1290, so I gained 70fps!!
I was noticing a bit more smoke, so I think I may be burning the hi-tek coating just a bit? But accuracy is good, no lead fouling, I'm happy-- just over 820 ft lbs at the muzzle is plenty fine.
Wow but that is some great velocity you are getting! Well done. Have you had a chance to check accuracy yet?
Should be like a ray gun to hogs. Looking forward to pics.
Getting 3/4" group at 10 yards, gotta stretch it's legs a little next time and also double check the velocity...seems fast for a 200gr but I checked my chrony against known rifle loads and they were within 15fps of normal
Remember I do have a 6" barrel too.
I've loaded the same coated bullet @ 1.260 w/ 12.8gr #9 and got 1,194 out of a 5.15". 1,360 is amazing!
I hope to shoot my RIA 5 inch tomorrow. I have loaded the coated bullets over 8.5 grains of Longshot. It will be interesting to see what I get.
Quote from: Dave Nowlin on September 15 2017 10:49:52 PM MDT
I hope to shoot my RIA 5 inch tomorrow. I have loaded the coated bullets over 8.5 grains of Longshot. It will be interesting to see what I get.
Did you ever get an opportunity to fire these? I just ordered some today to try
I received my .401 200 gr WFN from Montana Bullets yesterday. I loaded up some test rounds with Longshot and fired them across the chrono today.
Test Gun - Kimber TLE 10mm
Chronograph - Shooting Chrony F1
Test loads =
200 gr. WFN
Longshot @ 8.1 grs
CCI # 300
C.O.L. 1.230"
Armscor Brass
Shot 1 = 1206 fps
Shot 2 = 1202 fps
Shot 3 = 1204 fps
200 gr. WFN
Longshot @ 8.2 grs
CCI # 300
C.O.L. 1.230"
Armscor Brass
Shot 1 = 1218 fps
Shot 2 = 1222 fps
Shot 3 = 1220 fps
200 gr. WFN
Longshot @ 8.3 grs
CCI # 300
C.O.L. 1.230"
Armscor Brass
Shot 1 = 1230 fps
Shot 2 = 1234 fps
Shot 3 = 1227 fps
I loaded up 3 rounds each at 8.4 grs and 8.5 grs and 8.6 grs but did not fire these. My 8.1 gr loads were the hottest I felt comfortable with. The 8.2 and 8.3 grains showed more primer flattening and firing pin swipe then I like. I will pull the hotter loads and load up a few more starting at 7.9 grs, 8 grs and more 8.1 grs to test again. This is pretty typical results with my Kimber. I always tend to get higher pressures and velocities with this gun than what people report here. I didn't test for accuracy this time around. I was running out of daylight and didn't want to take the time. Next time I will.
Good results there Dieselman! You bring up the under mentioned truth that a good load for one gun may well be over/under pressure for another. I load the same 200 gr bullet a bit deeper and run 8.6 gr of Longshot with the same primers. Yet I get about the same velocities you do out of an OEM Glock barrel (allowing for slight length difference)
Heck of a bullet by the way. Very accurate in my Glock's. That is both with OEM and after market barrels.
Please let us know how your accuracy tests turn out.
Dieselman, have you ever slugged the barrel on your Kimber TLE 10mm? If I recall someone measured 0.3990" on theirs. If that is the same for yours then having a tighter bore and seal may be why your numbers are achieved with a little less powder. Also your COL being 1.230 may also play into pressures being slightly higher as the bullet is seated on to the powder charge!
Good numbers by the way! Thanks for sharing!
Spudmiester, I would be afraid to shoot your loads through my gun! :)) The other side of the coin is you would probably be disappointed with my loads in your gun. You are certainly right about loads being safe for one may not be safe for another. For example, Buffalo Bore 220 grain Hardcast will blow the primer out of the case everytime in this Kimber. Needless to say, I don't shoot them after realizing this. My brother in law and I both reload and we don't think twice about swapping low pressure .45 acp loads back and forth. But we wouldn't swap a 10mm load unless it was a greatly reduced FBI type load.
The Shadow, no I have never slugged the barrel. I should do that some time. I'm sure it must be tighter than a lot of the 10mms out there. I always reach pressure long before many of the folks on this website report with identical loads. So it really was no surprise that I did with this load. I should have started my tests at about 7.8 grs knowing the history of my gun.
With Christmas just around the corner, I may not have time to get back out and test again for accuracy until after the New Year. If I should find time before then, I will update here.
I've been shooting 8.6 of LS out of my custom 1911 Springfield long slide w/the Montana 200 WFNPB.
It's hot but doesn't show excessive pressure signs but the 'Starline' on the case is getting harder to see as it's been hammered into the breachface pretty hard.
I've loaded the same brass ~3-4 times w/that load.
I load to 1.25, accuracy is fine.
I had a friend shoot some through his G40, primers looked fine and they shot well. Don't have a chrony yet......
Not sure that's the load I'm going to settle on, but it works well.