Morning Folks,
Do any of the following powders / manufacturers (Longshot, Power Pistol, or Blue Dot) offer book min-max loads for 220gr hard cast? I have looked high and low with little success
Thanks
Ken
The Lee manual may have data. I am not by my desk at the moment so I can't check.
All the major powder companies max out between 200/205.
Pull down information can be a guide.
Kenk, none that I have seen showed load data for 220 grain bullets. 200 grain was the max jacketed and usually FMJ style keeping the bullet short to still allow powder room. Later Hornady and Nosler offered 200 grain JHP's and there were 200 cast bullet molds from Speer and Lyman.
Double Tap was first to offer 230 grain loads with the 135 grain JHP over a 95 grain lead ball called the Double Tap 230gr Equalizer. Hence two holes bleed better than one. Later other offerings of heavy for caliber 220 and 230 cast bullets were produced and utilized by DT & BB.
Thanks, From what I can tell, Longshot could be a good option for the 220gr cast, the question is where to start my work up gains wise?
I would start at 6.0 grains and work up. I would stop at 1100 fps.
Doubletap pull-down data for 230 grain is 7.2 grains.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/double-tap-230gr-hard-cast-pull-dowm/
Underwood pulldown for 220 grain Rim Rock has been both 8.4 and 8.0
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-hard-cast-pull-down/
Well.... you certainly have my interest. I have long wondered if we took the best of the 220gr loads and the best of the 200gr loads, which one would be more practical. Please keep posting results, good or bad, as there is so little data out there.
Thanks folks!
I guess the question is this; once you venture above say 180 / 200 grains, are you losing enough FPS / Foot Pounds of energy to make it worth goin there?
Depends on what you want the cartridge to do.
If you are looking for a large temporary wound cavity, good expansion and moderate penetration then sectional density around 0.140-0.160 is usually the sweet spot for handgun rounds.
If you are looking for good penetration through tough hide and bone then higher sectional density values are desirable. The Keith style 250 grain 44 Mag bullets run 0.194, right there with the 220 grain 10mm bullets.
While it is true energy drops off some from 180-200-220, momentum actually increases between these rounds. I ran the data using 1350-1250-1150 for the relative velocities of the three bullet weights and got:
| Weight | Velocity | Sectional
Density | Energy | Momentum | Taylor KO |
| 180 | 1350 | 0.161 | 728 | 34.7 | 13.9 |
| 200 | 1250 | 0.179 | 694 | 35.7 | 14.3 |
| 220 | 1150 | 0.196 | 646 | 36.1 | 14.5 |
I included the Taylor KO value as it does attempt to account for the benefits of heavier bullets. I think it has far more application in hunting than in personal defense, and I think it's merits were over-sold, but the data-point does offer some insight at the same time.
In my mind if you are looking for a non-expanding round, nothing wrong with a 220 grain bullet, if you understand it's drawbacks. First, there is a significant recoil penalty to be paid for those few extra grains of weight. Second, the margin of error in reloading is also much smaller since useful case capacity is diminished.
But if you are comfortable with these limitation, 646 lb-ft of energy is nothing to sneeze at, and the extra sectional density and momentum will benefit the round under certain conditions. Good luck making a gel block long enough to stop that bullet. I ran a 205 grain bullet all the way through eleven gallon jugs of water in testing one time.
Sqlbullet,
I am with you on your suggested velocities with 180 and 200 gr cast bullet. About right for a 5" quality barrel. But is that velocity for the 220 gr a red hot nuclear load that needs major powder compression? Or is it about as hard to get 1,150 fps out of a 220 gr bullets as it is to get 1,250 fps out of a 200 gr bullet?
Thanks for your insights.
Underwood loads the 220 grain to 1200 fps advertised. And they usually make/exceed advertised velocity.
1200 fps would be a very hot load. In fact, in my own reloading I would stop all three of these weights 50-100 fps short of the values presented cause I tend to be a cautious guy. I don't see the need for that extra speed in my shooting . If I were hunting bear or other dangerous game, I would be more inclined to push that boundary a tad.
OK, thanks. Think I get the gist of it. I am all for the 220 gr hard cast load but I think I am a little too conservative to push it anywhere near the Underwood load. Of course it may be more chicken than conservative ;D
Me as well, l think I'll just buy a box or two from Underwood and stick with my 180gr XTP and HAP loads
Morning sqlbullet,
You had mentioned starting at 6gr of Longshot when using the 220 hard cast WFN. Any thoughts on what a max, or near max load would be, not that I would even come close to that?, plus I am unable to check my FPS at this point
Thanks
Ken
Hodgdon is saying 7 - 8.2gr's of Longshot for a 200gr FMJ, but nothing about the heavier WFN cast bullet, Thoughts...
BULLET WEIGHT
200 GR. HDY FMJ
Manufacturer
Hodgdon
Powder
Longshot
Bullet Diameter
.400"
C.O.L.
1.260"
Starting Load
Grains
7.0
Velocity (ft/s)
1,034
Pressure
23,900 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains
8.2
Velocity (ft/s)
1,172
Quote from: Kenk on March 28 2018 04:23:56 AM MDT
Morning sqlbullet,
You had mentioned starting at 6gr of Longshot when using the 220 hard cast WFN. Any thoughts on what a max, or near max load would be, not that I would even come close to that?, plus I am unable to check my FPS at this point
Thanks
Ken
The underwood load was pulled down and measured at 8.4 grains of longshot for 1237 fps measured average:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-220gr-cast-wfn-1230-fps-pull-down/
As you point out, this is over the book max for a 200 grain FMJ.
In general, I would expect a cast WFN to be a bit shorter than a FMJ in the same bullet weight. But we have an additional 10% of mass here to deal with as well.
You can't really safely work up an off book load without a chronograph, so if you want to go down this path, set aside $100 and get a Chrony. My personal stopping point as mentioned above would be 1150 fps with Longshot or 800X, unless I saw other pressure signs earlier.
Another data point (though again...chrono!) is to compare the Hodgdon 180 grain data to the 200 grain data. 180 max load is 9.5 grains and the 200 grain max is 8.2 grains. Bullet construction is different between this (JHP vs FMJ), a variable I wish wasn't present, but it. 180->200 grain is 11% more mass, and 8.2->9.5 grains is 15% more powder. Applying the same 15% drop puts a max charge at 6.9 grains. Conveniently this is a similar min-max spread as a percentage of weight as we see in other Longshot loads, about 16%.
So, around 7.0 grains is a reasonable thought on max, though Underwood swears his loads are lab tested and in spec, and he loaded 8.4 ???
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 28 2018 07:55:05 AM MDT
So, around 7.0 grains is a reasonable thought on max, though Underwood swears his loads are lab tested and in spec, and he loaded 8.4 ???
On the several occasions I e-mailed UW, their response had been that their loads were with in SAAMI specs... But understand that they are loading virgin brass which will likely do better overall.
We as handloaders have to understand that we are our own quality control as we assemble our own stuff. When working to the maximum loads, it is for that reason I hand weigh each and every charge of powder, verify the measurements.
Thanks man, greatly appreciate your efforts on this one. Also, what Chrony would you recommend in the 100.00 range mentioned?
Ken
This is the one I have:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/531741/shooting-chrony-f1-chronograph
Although, any of the $80-$110 chronographs at Midway USA seem like they would work fine for this task.
Were I ordering today from Midway, I would probably get this one for $10 less money:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/113204/competition-electronics-prochrono-pal-chronograph
Your gonna shoot it at some point anyway (I did, but mine still works!) :P
The_Shadow has a pretty cool armored ironing board setup for his.
Yes and still managed to hit the rear sensor with a 380ACP tiny gun not much grip
Lol, sure I'll hit it in time as well, Thanks guys!
I have had success blasting a 220gr plated projectile over 1200fps(1260 avg)but it was scary as poop though, and the cases were not reusable(excessive case expanding). Sucks I didn't record my load data :(
I've worked with 220s in the 10mm and 40 and in my testing longshot and 800x would be my choice for best results. Barrel length and chamber dimensions as well as case support will dictate how fast you can safely push them. But the thing with 220s is they don't have to be pushed very fast to really penetrate. 1100-1200fps should cover most needs.
Power pistol works well for moderately warm 220 loads but I started getting pressure signs before I got to what 800x or longshot could produce. 1200fps is fairly easy to obtain in a 5" or longer barrel, while I've personally gone over 1400fps in a 6.6" barrel with a large compensator with 800x. Not recommended but I was seeing what was possible.
Sheesh. A 220 at anything close to 1400 is carrying some serious mail. :o
ss30378, I was just reading over your 357Sig post over at Glock Talk earlier...Yea the solid cast bullets do punch hard and deep.
The compensator probably helps with the slide velocity and recoil in those higher end loadings you're pushing...
Shadow,
The sig has impressed me from when I started loading it. Loading long makes it even more impressive.
But yes the comp makes a big difference when things get warm. The 220s get slide velocity up fast and even velocity bumps as small as 30fps can be felt. 1250fps is about as fast as I'll run 220s without the comp. Once I get to 1300 with no comp even the heavy long slide with 24lb spring is smacking the frame pretty hard. The comp brought even the 1400fps loads down to the point where cases were flying more than a few feet. But 1400fps is the point where primer pockets are destroyed and I was well beyond nuclear levels (I do not recommend trying to push the 10mm that hard). As stated it was merely a test to see what was possible.
The sweet spot for my gun is 1200-1300fps with the comp and 220s. That was the best combo for performance accuracy and case life and soft shooting.