What does "Pass-Thru Sizing do? You ever have a reloaded casing not fit inside you chamber freely? Have you ever used a cartridge case gauge? This gauge is tighter than any chamber for you pistols and is used to verify your loaded cartridges to be within SAAMI specs dimensionally.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/mrr9iiijh/s-l1600.jpg)
Here is a picture of a casing that was sized in an RCBS Carbide sizer touching the shellholder as it sits in the Lyman Case Gauge...it did fit my barrel chamber of the S&W1006 but not the LWD chamber.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/awq54d659/IMG_0895_zpsbabb92ca.jpg)
Here is that same casing after being run thru the Lee FCD used as a "Pass-Thru Sizer" as it sits in the Lyman Case Gauge...
It is flush with the "Go" line and below the "No-Go"...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/mlu4sc4tp/IMG_0896_zps35ce2f76.jpg)
Why Pass-Thru Sizing? Standard sizing dies do not resize the areas below the radius of the standard sizing die's mouth or carbide ring. I have worked with range brass for years and I see plenty of bulged and even some "SMILED" brass as shot for various pistols. Oh this only works for casings that are the same extractor rim as the casing body...10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig, 9x25Dillon. There are others which will work using the correct FCD for those cartridges.
I clean my brass first in the tumbler to remove most of the debris, then size using the LEE FCD with its guts removed, using nothing but the carbide ring section of this die. I set this die body very high in the press (good compound type) to take advantage of the leverage. In the picture below this is a rimmed case but it is to show the inside of the die body of a LEE FCD.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/7s83m0iy5/IMG_0389.jpg)
This die needs to be as far to the top of the press stroke for best leverage but still allow the casing to pass completely thru the carbide sizer ring; it will remain inside the die body till the next few cases push it out the top of the die body.
I use a bullet push-pin from a 40 cal/10mm LEE bullet sizer kit in place of the shell holder on the ram to push on the casing's head. The LEE Bulge Buster Kit contains a pin (smaller diameter and shorter to use with several cartridges) and a plastic catch can.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/82mzqxjel/xctmpo_Pc_M2f.png)
It is small enough to go inside the the sizing die and strong enough and large enough surface to apply the force to push the brass up and thru the carbide ring.
While this is adding an extra step it gives me a chance to further inspect the casings, especially 40S&W and 10mm as these are high pressure cartridges. Slight bulges or OK but "Smiled" brass is trash! "Smiled" brass has started to shear and cannot be ironed back into place
Doing the pass thru uniforms the casing completely even the extractor rims to nice concentric round rim.
I was pass thru sizing some 45 ACP to condition them for the loading process and found the Speer and CCI cases are different from all other manufactures brass. The Speer and CCI cases show a bright ring just in front of the extractor cut and also the extractor rim itself as the carbide ring is squeezing this down to a uniform size of the carbide ring! Dimensionally it must be slightly larger in diameter than all of the other makes of brass with a few others that are almost as that size. If you do pass thru sizing you will feel exactly what I experienced.
One thing I can say is that once these brass have been processed with the Pass-Thru-Sizer system they will fit cartridge case gauges where as I have seen conventional sizing dies not remove all case expansion enough to drop freely in and out of the cartridge case gauges.
Hope this explanation provides some insight to Pass-Thru-Sizing and its benefits!
LEE's instructions for the Pass-Thru Setup http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/1855.pdf (http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/1855.pdf)
Redding G-Rx Push Thru Die setup http://www.redding-reloading.com/new-products/3-g-rx-push-thru-base-sizing-die (http://www.redding-reloading.com/new-products/3-g-rx-push-thru-base-sizing-die)
We had a great discussing over at GlockTalk about the "SMILED" brass.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403261
Once the brass is "SMILED" it will not iron out because the brass has started to shear...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l5imag9p9/40_S_W_Smile_Cross_Section.jpg)
The "SMILED" brass was run thru the Pass-thru-die system but it does not remove or repair the shearing...look close at the left side of this casing.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/yyki9tn4t/40_case_Cross_Section.jpg)
Same brass different view...This isn't the best picture, but the brass is shiny from resizing above and below the smile, but the smile is still visible. This chambered just fine before sectioning. This is the piece of brass in the picture above.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l4w5krmtp/40_brass_Cross_Section_Smile.jpg)
Thanks to Yondering who originally posted these pictures of the smiled brass over at GT!
I use the Redding GR-x sizing die for both 10mm and .40 cal S&W cases(AND 357 SIG cases) after tumbling them clean and initial sizing. I heard you just remove the top from a Lee FCD and use a rod to do the same thing. But remember this only works for rimless cartridges.
I use a Redding GR-x on range pickup 40 S&W to get rid of any Glock bulges. I only do that the first time the brass goes into my inventory as my 40's are both STI's. My 10 brass starts as all new Starline and doesn't get pushed thru sizing.
I don't work my brass anymore than I have too so I only full length, push thru when it is absolutely needed to assure that my loads feed properly.
I use the GR-X die for 10MM and 40. I found it to work much better than the Lee Factory Crimp die. My LFCD seems to be smaller that the GR-X die, so small actually. I had to push so hard I broke part of my bench. With the GR-X die they go through with minimal effort.
I also use this die to kinda sorta gauge the pressures of my handloads. A weak or mid-range load will slip through the die with ease, a Max load may be a little harder but not much. I load that is "hot" will be difficult to pass through, will be discarded and the load or loads will be marked as over pressure.
I can't do this with my LFCD as everything is hard to pass through.
How old is your FCD? The early ones were noted to be on the very tight side. Later ones are much better.
I have no issues pushing brass through mine.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 25 2013 08:04:17 AM MST
How old is your FCD? The early ones were noted to be on the very tight side. Later ones are much better.
I have no issues pushing brass through mine.
Duno, I actually had to send it back to Lee to open it up .0015 as it was difficult to use as a Standard Crimp Die. Haven't tried it as a push through since I opened it up and purchased the GR-X. I'll give it a try and see how it goes.
You will want want the die as high as it will go in the press to take advantage of the top of the stroke leverage! Both system should work well!
Good luck!
Yeah, since 10mm brass is kind of expensive I belong to a few forums with brass trading sections. When I trade for once fired 10mm brass, I always run it through my Redding GR-x full case sizer, because who knows if it was fired from like a Glock. The guy trading it usually just picked up free ones from his range, and doesn't have a 10mm.(Otherwise he would know NOT to trade it!) Most of my 9mm and .45 cases came from scarfed up free brass from my range. The problem is.....I have so many different caliber guns that I usually don't have many I scarf for free I don't shoot myself.
OK, so I've got a few questions regarding the bulge buster / LEE FCD.
Right now I'm still waiting on backordered dies for my 9MM & 10MM. I have a G26, G17, & Kel-Tec PF9 9MM. I also have the 10MM G20. All have stock barrels. I am mainly concerned with the brass fired in Glock barrels, which are well known for their spaciousness. Can I reload it safely?
My plan is to run only new 10MM Starline cases for "full-power" 10MM loads, then relegate them to plinker loads (40 S&W power level ;D)
My 9MM cases are all once, or multiple fired cases. It is not cost effective for me to buy new 9MM cases. Some of them are from me, others are random pickups.
I have cleaned all these cases and discarded any of them that look even remotely suspicious to my recycle pile.
-Using the standard Lee dies (4-die carbide set) am I going to run into problems without full-length resizing these cases?
-If I do full-length re-size the cases, how much will I be decreasing their lifespan? 10%? 50%?
-Do you use any case lube when using the pass through die?
Just trying to understand whether it is worth the money, and what other pitfalls are involved in this process.
Thanks!
Richard, I pass-thru size every time no matter which gun they are shot from (All 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig & 9x25Dillon cases to insure they will pass the cartridge case gauge, even 45ACP too in the appropriate FCD)...I don't think that this reconditioning degrades the longevity of brass life. Shooting in the loose chambers will allow the expansion on each firing so the brass gets worked even more. Careful inspection to eliminate any "smiled" or damaged cases.
With the FCD it is a carbide ring that is doing the work, I don't lube mine but I do tumble brass clean prior to the re-sizing.
I do handload many used cases to full potential after careful inspection. I know my guns and how they handle each load I use including those that memick Underwood & SwampFox. But nothing says you can't load to lighter levels for playtime.
Thanks for the reply Shadow. I think I am probably over-analyzing this whole thing! I guess that's what happens when you are sitting on components too long... ;) . After my dies show up (someday) and I actually get to loading some of this brass, then I'll probably be back here with more questions.
I contemplated buying an aftermarket barrel to help extend brass life, but I also figured that $120 can buy a LOT of brass! I am really not planning on shooting lead. The savings are appealing, but for me right now time not spent cleaning guns and fooling around is worth more than the money I would save. I am, after, all, loading with a press clamped to an office desk in my little apartment here in Seattle. Simplification is key!
I want to buy a Lee taper crimp die to use ( appropriate part ) in the Lee Bulge buster for my 10 mm. Can't get a carbide taper crimp but have found non-carbide taper crimp die for < $10.00 w/o shipping and it is in stock.
I have always reloaded handguns ammo using carbide dies. Would I need some kind of lubricant w/ steel and exactly what is it?
Any major disadvantages using plain steel?
Would I be better off waiting for a carbide die?
Usually, don't have a problem w/ my 1006 or stock barrel for my G-20 as the barrels are not as tight as my Lone Wolf and the cylinder on my 610 and then only occasionally w/ a bulged case.
Quote from: jiminthe burg on March 09 2013 06:20:49 PM MST
I want to buy a Lee taper crimp die to use ( appropriate part ) in the Lee Bulge buster for my 10 mm. Can't get a carbide taper crimp but have found non-carbide taper crimp die for < $10.00 w/o shipping and it is in stock.
I have always reloaded handguns ammo using carbide dies. Would I need some kind of lubricant w/ steel and exactly what is it?
Any major disadvantages using plain steel?
Would I be better off waiting for a carbide die?
Usually, don't have a problem w/ my 1006 or stock barrel for my G-20 as the barrels are not as tight as my Lone Wolf and the cylinder on my 610 and then only occasionally w/ a bulged case.
The lube or no lube question only applies to sizing, with pistol dies. If you have a steel sizing die, they need lube. The "crimp" die makes no difference, carbide or steel. Most "crimp" dies are steel, but the Lee FCD crimp ring and sizer (the bulge buster part) is carbide. Rifle dies and sizing (for tapered or bottle-neck cases), on the other hand, is very different. Lube is required every time, with the exception of collet neck sizers. Straight wall rifle cases, such as .45-70, are sized and loaded the same as pistol cartridges. Bottle-neck pistol cartridges, such as .357 Sig, are loaded like rifle cartridges, and lube is required for sizing.
If your 10mm sizing die is in fact steel, you'll need to use case sizing lube. Otherwise, no lube for any part of the process.
Quote from: claimbuster on February 16 2013 02:53:04 PM MST
I use a Redding GR-x on range pickup 40 S&W to get rid of any Glock bulges. I only do that the first time the brass goes into my inventory as my 40's are both STI's. My 10 brass starts as all new Starline and doesn't get pushed thru sizing.
I don't work my brass anymore than I have too so I only full length, push thru when it is absolutely needed to assure that my loads feed properly.
Yeah, I only need to do it once if I have a few range pickups or buy once fired cases I don't know from what they were shot with.
Quote from: The_Shadow on February 25 2013 05:07:55 PM MST
You will want want the die as high as it will go in the press to take advantage of the top of the stroke leverage! Both system should work well!
Good luck!
What? The case goes ALL the way though the Redding die. It doesn't use a shellholder, just a push rod. I don't know how the Lee works
Quote from: gandog56 on April 03 2013 06:23:07 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on February 25 2013 05:07:55 PM MST
You will want want the die as high as it will go in the press to take advantage of the top of the stroke leverage! Both system should work well!
Good luck!
What? The case goes ALL the way though the Redding die. It doesn't use a shellholder, just a push rod. I don't know how the Lee works
Leverage. You want the hardest part of the sizing to come at the very end of the arm movement, when you have the best mechanical advantage.
Well that's where the entire case passes through the Redding dies, at the very apex.
I've been getting more interesting in doing this with my 10 and 40 cases. When sizing the 10mm lately, I seem to be getting quite a pronounced shoulder at the bottom of the case. I've reduced how far I size down, now stopping at about 1/8" or slightly more from the beginning of the extraction groove. But, I still see quite a shoulder there. Pass-through would be one way to avoid this, and could possibly ensure more reliable chambering (although I haven't see a problem yet). I can see where several cycles of push through sizing might eventually harden the brass and call for some annealing, but not sure if that's 10 cycles or a 100.
I thought about using the Redding double ring die as an alternative, but at $100 I'm not so sure it's the right way to go.
Get the lee kit. Far cheaper and works just as good.
Odd that I found this thread, right when I have an issue of my own
I can shoot any of my 10mm Reloads in my Delta Gold Cup and in the Compact Upper of my Witness and not have a resizing issue
BUT, when I shoot them in the Longslide Upper on the Witness, I get a slight bulging above the Web
Not to say they wouldn't fit the DGC or the Compact Chamber, but I use Cartridge Gaughes to check all my Reloads and the Longslide Shoot Cases will not resize fully
So to fix my issue;
I pulled the DeCap Pin out of my RCBS die and I then used the (RCBS) Large Primer Swager to press the Case fully into the Sizing Die
Then I used a Punch to drive the Case out, and now they all fit perfectly into my Cartradge Gauge
While doing this, I noted that if I pressed too far, the Case would go inside, past the Sizing Ring
I thought that it would be cool if the Top of the Sizing Die could be removed, it would work GREAT as a Size Through Die
Way too much work. Just do yourself a favor and get the Redding or Lee set ups. It goes way faster and is a lot easier.
The lee die is the deal. Not only does it have the same carbide ring used in the normal sizing die, but it can be use as a factory crimp die if desired.
Quote from: DenStinett on June 03 2013 10:59:16 PM MDT
Odd that I found this thread, right when I have an issue of my own
I can shoot any of my 10mm Reloads in my Delta Gold Cup and in the Compact Upper of my Witness and not have a resizing issue
BUT, when I shoot them in the Longslide Upper on the Witness, I get a slight bulging above the Web
Not to say they wouldn't fit the DGC or the Compact Chamber, but I use Cartridge Gaughes to check all my Reloads and the Longslide Shoot Cases will not resize fully
So to fix my issue;
I pulled the DeCap Pin out of my RCBS die and I then used the (RCBS) Large Primer Swager to press the Case fully into the Sizing Die
Then I used a Punch to drive the Case out, and now they all fit perfectly into my Cartradge Gauge
While doing this, I noted that if I pressed too far, the Case would go inside, past the Sizing Ring
I thought that it would be cool if the Top of the Sizing Die could be removed, it would work GREAT as a Size Through Die
I would not recommend this. There's a very good reason sizing dies only go so far. They could design a sizing die that would do that, but they don't. The web of the case is "expendable", meaning, when it's out of spec, you toss the brass. A pass-through die won't/shouldn't resize the web. Once they get too hard to push through, the brass is done, and prone to failure with continued use. Working the brass back into place only weakens it. The case web and head should never be resized. Most every "straight wall" case isn't really straight, as they have a taper, or curve, to them, wider at the web/head. Forcing them to case mouth diameter will change the internal dimensions as well, and can deform the primer pocket. 9mm, for example, have an exaggerated taper. They aren't straight, at all. This is also the reason there is no pass-through die option for them.
Sure pleased to see someone out there thinks about the tools in the toolbox and how they can be used to do things other than what's on the label.
I just plugged in my FCD (with guts removed), and with a little lube, this is a breeze. While I can of course see where the case has been sized (burnished very nicely, thank you), I can no longer feel any shoulder at all (as you might expect). It's wonderful. The only single aspect of my setup that would make this trivial would be to have a Rockchucker to dedicate to single-stroke operations like this. Pretty sure I know how to remove the shellplate and drill and tap the head for a forcing pin, though. :) Sweeeet!
Thanks, Wade. You just saved me buying something I don't need and I wasn't using the FCD for anything anyway.
DM:
The Webb fits into the Case Gauge just fine
The bulde is above / forward of the Webb
Just out of reach (by meer thousands) of the Sizing Ring on my Die
DenStinett, I think you might be missing DM's point. A 22 will fit in your 10mm case gauge too. Doesn't mean it fits you chamber.
Pushing the case web that far into a die that resizes it down to the diameter of the mouth works the brass too much, making it brittle. That means it is more likely to crack and fail catastrophically.
The increased probability may be small, but is present. Just not something to gamble with when a proper tool is so cheap.
Understood
TNX
Odd thing though;
I have the Wilson 10mm Case Gauge, and I can drop a Factory Case in Head first and fit perfect
It's almost like it could be used as a Trim Die
Leads me to think it is as if the Side Walls, within the Gauge, are parallel
The Cases shot in the Longslide will fit into the Chamber after resizing, but I didn't want to keep different Loads for different Pistols
I guess I couls, I already do that with my four different .308s
Quote from: DenStinett on June 05 2013 09:31:28 PM MDT
Understood
TNX
Odd thing though;
I have the Wilson 10mm Case Gauge, and I can drop a Factory Case in Head first and fit perfect
It's almost like it could be used as a Trim Die
Leads me to think it is as if the Side Walls, within the Gauge, are parallel
The Cases shot in the Longslide will fit into the Chamber after resizing, but I didn't want to keep different Loads for different Pistols
I guess I couls, I already do that with my four different .308s
If you have more than one pistol shooting the same caliber, size your target loads to fit the tightest chamber. That's what I've done for over 30 years, successfully. I have a few dozen cartridge gages (around here, somewhere). I used to use them, but haven't in decades. All they tell you is if your rounds fit in the gage. If you're loading for guns you have, check them in the chambers. If they fit, they're good. If you have feed issues, something else is wrong. If you load for other chambers, like for friends/guests with unknown guns, the case gage is even less helpful.
I load 2 types of rounds. Business and pleasure.
For pleasure rounds (target, etc.), I have a rotation of brass (for all the calibers I load), and they're used until they are lost, fail, or begin to fail. There are so many (many 10's of thousands), there's no way I would begin to count their loadings. These are never 100% full power loads, although many are very close, but not so close the brass gets an excessive workout, and every case is inspected before reloading.
Business rounds are completely different, and I have a very specific process. First, every piece of new brass is loaded and fired, right out of the box (if it isn't within spec, requiring a trip to the sizer or a trim, it goes to the "other" rotation immediately). The "proof" load is about 90% of the intended final load, same lot of powder, primers and bullets. The brass is collected, inspected, cleaned, inspected, measured, then loaded again (if it passes) to full power. 1/2 of the lot is fired on the range, the other 1/2 is labeled and stored for "business" use. Each lot gets a repeat every 2 years (my shelf life for SD or hunting rounds), with the brass inspected and sent to the other rotation. It may sound like a bunch of nonsense, but someone's life may depend on it. Proof firing of the brass is absolutely necessary, in my opinion. Too many times over the years I've seen and had failures with brand new components, even factory rounds. Every significant KB! I've had were with brand new, never fired brass, at less than max load. I won't have any hesitation pulling down an entire lot, for one failure, of any kind. There's too much at stake, and I take it very serious. As serious as anything I do. I have to do everything right, every time, or someone may die or become seriously injured. The bad guy only has to be successful once. Not on my watch. Ever.
I hear ya DM
In the 40+ years I've reloaded, I have ran into this with one other Weapon
My Marlin 1894C leaves pretty much the same thing on my .38 / .357 Cases
And there again, I have to remove the DeCap Pin and "full length" resize by running the Case into the Die to the Rim
To date, I have yet to have an issue
I reload all of my Centerfire Rounds, save these;
Any of our CC / PD / HD Loads (I guess what you call your "business" rounds)
And the Rounds I reload will run through any Weapon I (or anyone else) would ever want to use
I'm sure I have loaded / reloaded hundreds of thousands of Round over the years
In all that time, have only had three malfunctions; one Primer and two (Range Pick-up) Brass failures (I will never use Rang Brass again, unless it's clearly once fired)
In my 40+ years of loading, I have never seen or even hear of a Primer coming from the Manufacture without an Anvil
But I had one last weekend
Quote from: DenStinett on June 06 2013 11:21:12 PM MDT
I hear ya DM
In the 40+ years I've reloaded, I have ran into this with one other Weapon
My Marlin 1894C leaves pretty much the same thing on my .38 / .357 Cases
And there again, I have to remove the DeCap Pin and "full length" resize by running the Case into the Die to the Rim
To date, I have yet to have an issue
I reload all of my Centerfire Rounds, save these;
Any of our CC / PD / HD Loads (I guess what you call your "business" rounds)
And the Rounds I reload will run through any Weapon I (or anyone else) would ever want to use
I'm sure I have loaded / reloaded hundreds of thousands of Round over the years
In all that time, have only had three malfunctions; one Primer and two (Range Pick-up) Brass failures (I will never use Rang Brass again, unless it's clearly once fired)
In my 40+ years of loading, I have never seen or even hear of a Primer coming from the Manufacture without an Anvil
But I had one last weekend
Yeah, you got it. Maybe it takes more 3 decades, or more, of (successful) experience. I've had a few primers minus the anvil, but caught every one. I consider myself lucky. Running the progressive presses, I would have likely missed them under the right (wrong) conditions. That's just one possibility, of many. My "failures" have been few and far between, and none due to my lack of attention, and none catastrophic. Lucky, I suppose. Call it what you want.
I have seen many issues with the .357M rifles, of all brands. I think they're an animal all to their own.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 04 2013 05:15:00 PM MDT
The lee die is the deal. Not only does it have the same carbide ring used in the normal sizing die, but it can be use as a factory crimp die if desired.
I have both. The Redding is a lot easier to use, and it spits the empties into an unscrewable plastic jug. Have to pull the crimper parts out of the Lee, then have to reset them right the next time you are crimping finished rounds
Quote from: gandog56 on June 07 2013 01:52:36 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 04 2013 05:15:00 PM MDT
The lee die is the deal. Not only does it have the same carbide ring used in the normal sizing die, but it can be use as a factory crimp die if desired.
I have both. The Redding is a lot easier to use, and it spits the empties into an unscrewable plastic jug. Have to pull the crimper parts out of the Lee, then have to reset them right the next time you are crimping finished rounds
Using a tool contrary to the instructions or intended purpose will almost always result in a less than ideal outcome.
The Lee FCD IS NOT a sizing die. No where in the instructions does it indicate that it is, or should be used as such.
The Lee Bulge Buster Kit allows the Lee FCD to be used as a tool designed to remove the slight bulge that can be present near the base of a case. It IS NOT recommended to be used as a tool to remove "Glock Smiles", or Glock chamber bulges, as stated specifically in the instructions. If a person were to use the FCD for sizing without purchasing, or at least researching, the Bulge Buster Kit, you wouldn't know this, and may use the tool incorrectly.
BTW, the BB Kit includes a catch container, as well as the instructions that describe how to use it, and how to NOT use it.
At one time Redding didn't make their GRX "Pass-Thru" with a Carbide Ring for the sizing. They learned that LEE's FCD was being used because it was cheaper cost and it had a Carbide Sizer ring for smoother operations without the need for lube.
Well my LEE 10mm FCD was purchased and dedicated to specifically for it Carbide Ring for "Pass-Thru" operation prior to regular sizing via the RCBS 10mm carbide die set. I have the Lyman 10mm Cartridge Case Gauge which has shown where cases have had problems using standard dies only! All case run thru my LEE FCD as "Pass-Thru" have fit this gauge easily.
Given that the 10mm, 40S&W 357Sig and 9x25Dillon are all the same exact main body size I use it prior to regular sizing of all of the cartridge casings. This insures 100% reliable feeding.
Oh, I use the LEE 45ACP FCD also for "Pass-Thru" sizing also just because I can insure proper and smoother 100% feeding.
Please understand that a "SMILE" / "FROWN" is NOT to be reused because the brass is starting to shear because of the excess stretching in that area.
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 07 2013 06:30:14 PM MDT
At one time Redding didn't make their GRX "Pass-Thru" with a Carbide Ring for the sizing. They learned that LEE's FCD was being used because it was cheaper cost and it had a Carbide Sizer ring for smoother operations without the need for lube.
Well my LEE 10mm FCD was purchased and dedicated to specifically for it Carbide Ring for "Pass-Thru" operation prior to regular sizing via the RCBS 10mm carbide die set. I have the Lyman 10mm Cartridge Case Gauge which has shown where cases have had problems using standard dies only! All case run thru my LEE FCD as "Pass-Thru" have fit this gauge easily.
Given that the 10mm, 40S&W 357Sig and 9x25Dillon are all the same exact main body size I use it prior to regular sizing of all of the cartridge casings. This insures 100% reliable feeding.
Oh, I use the LEE 45ACP FCD also for "Pass-Thru" sizing also just because I can insure proper and smoother 100% feeding.
Please understand that a "SMILE" / "FROWN" is NOT to be reused because the brass is starting to shear because of the excess stretching in that area.
I gave my reason for having both. I don't have to take out the crimping parts and then later replace them and get them rightly adjusted again. I mean I have separate crimp dies for my 10mm and my 40 cals so they are always adjusted perfect. And the Redding was ALSO designed for .40/10mm. And I also run my .357 SIG through it because I got huge quantities of SIG cases from a police practice range. Who knows how many cops had Glocks?
I update the very first post with examples of Cartridge Gauge case fitting before and after re-sizing and "Pass-Thru" sizing.
Love the pictures shadow...They certainly make it plain!
Quote from: DM1906 on June 07 2013 02:35:10 PM MDT
The Lee FCD IS NOT a sizing die. No where in the instructions does it indicate that it is, or should be used as such.
Actually.....it kind of IS one, since it uses a carbide ring as a final resizer in case your brass bulged any while seating seating the new bullet.
I guess I'm starting to lean in this direction more and more
As many of you may have noticed I like to tinker a lot, I also like to save money! Let me introduce the "ghetto" bulge buster. :P
You can even use it without removing the powder measure! (thanks to the nicely shaped "catch can")
You can also use the 10mm shell holder.
What you need:
1. Lee FCD
2. Spent 9mm case
3. Empty water bottle
4. Electric tape
5. About five minutes
Instructions:
1. Cut bottom off of water bottle
2. ***Optional*** line water bottle mouth with one layer of electric tape (provides snug fit on FCD)
2. Grind/file 9mm case down to approximately *.*" (works better than using a full-length case)
4. Remove crimping "guts" from FCD
5. Adjust for proper leverage (closest to the top of stroke provides best leverage)
6. Enjoy! ***DO NOT USE ON "SMILED" BRASS*** (You may end up looking like this :-\ )
A few crappy pictures from my cellphone that refused to focus last night: ***WARNING*** EXCESSIVE USE OF SMILEYS AHEAD
Water bottle mouth (rubber lined :)) )
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-p8G6C6w/0/M/BulgeBuster-2-M.jpg)
"Mounted" on FCD 8)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-4GqrpBd/0/M/BulgeBuster-1-M.jpg)
Cut down 9mm case :P
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-tDctf66/0/M/BulgeBuster-3-M.jpg)
Some sized brass sitting in the "catch can" ;)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-VB3PDNK/0/M/BulgeBuster-4-M.jpg)
Very cool idea Richard
But think about putting a piece of Hardwood (5/16) dowel in the 9mm to keep from crushing the case
Quote from: DenStinett on June 19 2013 08:11:25 AM MDT
Very cool idea Richard
But think about putting a piece of Hardwood (5/16) dowel in the 9mm to keep from crushing the case
I actually made two different cases, the first one I filled with JB Weld because I was worried about the case crushing. After the first one worked and I got the length figured out, I tried one without anything in it. I ran about 25 bulged pieces of brass along with 25+ completed rounds that were difficult to push through without any crushing of the case which is why I omitted that step from the instructions.
You can fill the case with something if you have crushing problems but based on my limited testing last night it is hard to crush a 9mm case that has been cut down a little bit.
Very cool idea, I have seen people use a bolt and some washers inplace of the shell holder. The main thing is using the very top of the press stroke for the best leverage forces.
I have a solid steel pin from a LEE bullet sizer kit, it is used in place of the shellholder, that I use to push mine.
That's basically how I started using it, before I got the BB kit (using a sizer punch to push). Problem was, without the BB kit, there's no insert in the FCD body. If a case tilts after "sizing", the die body will destroy the brass before it exits, as the case mouth can catch on the threads. The BB kit includes an insert that threads into the die (making it smooth all the way through), and accepts the included catch container.
If you insist on using the FCD as a bulge buster w/o the kit, an insert can me made easily. Use some thin wall tubing to make an insert.
DM1906, About the exposed threads...I use a piece of 3x5 card stock rolled into a tube cut and trimmed to slide down inside the threaded area as a protector. I am sure many things could be used to keep the case mouth from catching the threads.
Helpful TIP! I don't use the catch can, I grab them and place them in a 100 round shell tray for the next operation.
Helpful TIP! To get the casings that remain inside the FCD out easily I use the case neck brush that slides in but will extract the loose casing.
;D
The card stock should work well. It isn't rocket science. The O.D. of the insert is 0.5565", in case anyone is interested.
I've been doing it just like RMM is doing it. Except I full length resize a 9mm brass with a spent primer in it. Use a .380/.32 as a pusher then I fill the 9mm brass with small split shot fishing weights and use a propane torch to melt the lead and top off as needed in the case and top it off with a cut off base from a 380. Makes a great pusher! I run this setup in my Lee single stages or my classic turret. I prefer Winchester 10mm Brass over *-*. :) The *-* seems to soft for my liking and the primer pockets seem to loosen up faster. While the Win cost twice as much and then there is our 10mm brass lose ratio. :( I load nuke after nuke in my win brass through my LW 5.25" barrel. >>>>> ( never have shot a round through my OEM Gen3 barrel junk chamber pos )
I have a Magma Case Master. Pass through sizing from base to mouth. Case feeder simply slides back and forth to feed cases into place. Carbide dies to iin 9mm, .40/10/.357 Sig/9 X 25 and .45 ACP. I run everything through it before normal resizing/decapping.
Absolutely no issues after 3 years.
Quote from: robocop10mm on July 21 2013 09:43:57 PM MDT
I have a Magma Case Master. Pass through sizing from base to mouth. Case feeder simply slides back and forth to feed cases into place. Carbide dies to iin 9mm, .40/10/.357 Sig/9 X 25 and .45 ACP. I run everything through it before normal resizing/decapping.
Absolutely no issues after 3 years.
Ooooh, but them things are EXPENSIVE. The die alone is 56 bucks! A Lee FCD can be had for 12-15 bucks.
Well, I am almost embarssed to say I got my complete set up for $100. Friends in need are friends indeed!
Here is a video of the process of "Pass-Through Sizing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XcUh9LgqGV0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XcUh9LgqGV0)
I got mine today - four days late - it made it to 3 different post offices before getting to me - anyway decided to do my sons 40 short and weak - I told him he has to buy the dies for my dillon 650 - I'm not messing my 650 up - he hasn't - I got a lee 4 die set to do hand loads with so I set up FCD and went to town on his 40's - got into a rhythm and no one- said to watch out for the fingers -OUCH!!!! ooooowell live and learn - now the 10's where long enough to get my fingers out in time and in about 2 hours did almost 900 rounds- Did 200 of his rounds that I already had sized and primed and belled - it was nice of them to put that hole in the center to miss the primer - and if I had not re-sized them with the with the FCD he would have had a lot of problems feeding them in his M&P40 ----SO as Shadow and the others have stated its worth the little bit of time and not that much money to be safe and not sorry.!
25 to 30 dollars well worth it!
Doug
Doug seems to be another satisfied victim of the "Pass-Through" system! 8) How was the feel for the brass as it passed up and through the carbide ring? Where some showing the need for extra leverage to get them up and through the die? ???
Even the rim section is pressed to a uniformed round diameter...this is why It seems to tighten up the primer pockets a little. ::)
That setup will also recondition the lower sections of 357Sig brass and 9x25Dillon because they all share the same 0.4220"-0.4230" case diameter.
Most of the 40 brass my son picked up (1200 to1400 rounds )was suppose to Once fired - not - but the price was right. About 3/4 of the about 400 rounds of brass I sized was Glocked brass.
The Glocked brass needed extra effort, the rest almost fell through. another 1000 rds to go. I already figured out a way to keep from pinching my fingers, and if I had access to a lath I make one - alas no access. I can see more pinched fingers ahead, d*m short and weak shells.
Doug
What are you using as the pushpin to shove the brass up into the base of the die? ??? Some have used a casing with a steel rod inside as the push pin, adjusting its length for their setup.
The pin I use, is from a LEE 10mm bullet sizer kit! This pin is very flat across the top and the brass sits nice on top.
(http://leeprecision.com/images/T/xctmpoPcM2f.png)
Casing with brass rod works for me.
Mines the same Shadow - except it has a hole a little larger than a primer in the center, Works for me! Must be something new?
Doug
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on January 19 2014 06:19:04 PM MST
Mines the same Shadow - except it has a hole a little larger than a primer in the center, Works for me! Must be something new?
Doug
Sounds like the one I have too
Quote from: The_Shadow on January 14 2014 04:10:31 PM MST
Doug seems to be another satisfied victim of the "Pass-Through" system! 8) How was the feel for the brass as it passed up and through the carbide ring? Where some showing the need for extra leverage to get them up and through the die? ???
Even the rim section is pressed to a uniformed round diameter...this is why It seems to tighten up the primer pockets a little. ::)
That setup will also recondition the lower sections of 357Sig brass and 9x25Dillon because they all share the same 0.4220"-0.4230" case diameter.
Yeah, I get a lot of my brass through trades. I can almost tell for certain if the things were shot by Glocks by how much resistance they have when resizing, don't even have to look for the "smilies" (Though I do AFTER I resize them to make sure they pass inspection). Yeah my 40 caliber Lee FCD takes care of my .40 cal, 10mm, and 357 SIG cases. (I don't have any 9X25 pistol) Plus the Bulge buster kit means I can do in .380 ACP, .45 ACP, any rimless case, as long as I have the carbide FCD die for that round. Which if Lee makes one, I do.
Reminds me of making a trade with a guy who worked at a police training range and I scarfed up like 1000 10mm cases from him.
Quote from: RMM on June 19 2013 07:59:43 AM MDT
As many of you may have noticed I like to tinker a lot, I also like to save money! Let me introduce the "ghetto" bulge buster. :P
You can even use it without removing the powder measure! (thanks to the nicely shaped "catch can")
You can also use the 10mm shell holder.
What you need:
1. Lee FCD
2. Spent 9mm case
3. Empty water bottle
4. Electric tape
5. About five minutes
Instructions:
1. Cut bottom off of water bottle
2. ***Optional*** line water bottle mouth with one layer of electric tape (provides snug fit on FCD)
2. Grind/file 9mm case down to approximately *.*" (works better than using a full-length case)
4. Remove crimping "guts" from FCD
5. Adjust for proper leverage (closest to the top of stroke provides best leverage)
6. Enjoy! ***DO NOT USE ON "SMILED" BRASS*** (You may end up looking like this :-\ )
What is the length you cut the 9mm casing to use as your pusher? Going to craft a ghetto setup this weekend. Thanks for the tip!
thanks all for sharing
I assumed my Dillon full length carbide dies would take care of the bulge? Seated all the way to the shellplate....
I am just gearing up to reload 10mm, and have not gotten my bucket of range brass in my hands to inspect yet...
I have the Reding GRX carbide kit. It's more money but it's turnkey.
I like the few Redding dies I have. Too bad they are so much more expensive than the Lee equivalent sets.
question: I went over to a friends commercial reloading facility last night....
They have two Dillon 1050's set up just to remove bulge on .40 cases;
They are only using the Dillon FL die, I ran a few 10mm thru and did the "before and after case gauge check"
It worked fine to remove the glock bulge...
Is that not adequate?
Sorry to ask what may be a obvious question; but I was going to get the Redding setup- but not sure why I need it?
Is the pass thru more for "smiley" brass?
Like a lot of things in life, its matter of how much do you want to fix it. FL dies don't really get that last little bit at the rim. Push thru dies do since the whole case passes thru. Theoretically there is less chance of a ramp blow out etc. Your mileage may vary as you make your decision, you pay your money, and take your chances. (play the probabilities)
So, its really your decision here.
Exactly what sstewart says. I bought a Lee sizer but really don't need it as none of my chambers seem to have enough unsupported area to cause problematic swelling.
thanks for spoon feeding me on this one....
I get it now....
scubadds, Dillon makes good products especially dies...but you may still want to consider Pass-Through sizing.
I will say, some die sets are better than others for case sizing. However, the shell plate or shell holder does occupy space and the radius of the sizer die itself equates to missing the very part just above the start of the extractor groove cut.
While it may seem like your cases are fine in a loose chamber or the cases being reused may not have expanded quite as much as those being of higher impulse rounds, eventually you will find where a cartridge that was not pass through sized may not fit a tighter chambered barrel. If you have a cartridge case gauge, you may see where some will not even fit.
I will also add that it has been the very best step to insure 100% positive feeding reliability for me across all of my guns and barrels being used to include 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 9x25Dillon because I do Pass-Through size them all prior to standard sizing.
Why did I go with the LEE FCD? I heard where it was a good final crimp die...this was not the case, as it can squeeze the cartridge in such a way that it can reduce the bullet size slightly as they enter the carbide sizing ring. This left the bullets undersized and loose in some loadings. Therefore I quit using it for that purpose.
But using that same FCD with its carbide ring to Pass-Through size, has been 100% effective in restoring all of my used brass (except SMILED cases) to very trust worthy cartridges.
I have tested SMILED cases even with popped/missing primers that were Pass-Through sized and it ironed out the SMILE enough to pass a case gauge , but the SMILE remained and the primer pocket was restored enough to even hold another primer. While it is not recommended this cartridge was loaded and fired with a moderate load.
I use the Redding GR-X die, never tried the Lee, but it is a simple mindless step after polishing for me. It takes very little time since it is a passthrough operation (I have a catch bottle on top that probably holds 200+ 10mm cases) and I can watch TV or listen to the radio while doing. I never tried the Lee, it is a good bit cheaper and others here swear by it (I have always been a fan of RCBS or Redding dies).
When using the die I can really tell which rounds were fired through my Glock 20 with KKM barrel (or S&W 1006) versus which ones went through the Glock 29 with stock barrel!
How you guys feel about running loaded .40 thru the Grx? Is there primer pressure??? I have not seen one, nor felt the pressure it takes to pass thru
I ask because a ran across some "seconds" .40 that have a slight bulge; (reloads made before the pre-processed the cases)
It can be done but it is possible that the resizing may squeeze the bullet smaller, but it will work. I noticed this in the LEE FCD as a finish die and as pass through setup...
Quote from: scubadds on June 11 2015 09:58:23 AM MDT
How you guys feel about running loaded .40 thru the Grx? Is there primer pressure??? I have not seen one, nor felt the pressure it takes to pass thru
I ask because a ran across some "seconds" .40 that have a slight bulge; (reloads made before the pre-processed the cases)
If there is absolutely no primer protrusion, probably. Not a good practice, though.
Quote from: scubadds on June 11 2015 09:58:23 AM MDT
How you guys feel about running loaded .40 thru the Grx? Is there primer pressure??? I have not seen one, nor felt the pressure it takes to pass thru
I ask because a ran across some "seconds" .40 that have a slight bulge; (reloads made before the pre-processed the cases)
The primer is not so much of an issue as is neck tension. You don't want to squeeze down a loaded case. The bullet is softer then brass. Itblikely would swage the bullet slightly. The springier brass will "bounce back" slightly, and tension can be reduced. It is the same concept of how neck tension is compromised by too much taper or LFCD crimp.
EDIT:
Regarding the "seconds". If something weren't right about the case specs, I'd most likely pull them. Remove the de-capping stem, so as to not remove the primer, and then re-size, bell and reload.
You can use the FCD or GRX with loaded rounds. The primer isn't an issue, as the ram will either be a flat surface that engages the case head, or actually has a relief in the center (such as the Lee Bulge Buster kit ram), that prevents primer-anvil contact completely.
If your bullets are getting squeezed, using the FCD or GRX, something else is REALLY wrong, and you'll need to start from scratch. If it does this, the round won't fit in (almost) any chamber. The FCD is a case crimping die, meaning, if you are using it as such, the case w/bullet WILL pass through it at least twice. This wasn't an accident, but by design, to ensure the loaded rounds will fit the chambers. The FCD carbide ring is about chamber diameter, similar to the GRX.
As far as correcting loaded ammo with (slightly) bulged cases goes, I'd not recommend it, but I'd probably do it myself, depending on the circumstances. I've done this with my own target loads many times, but I don't know if I'd do it with other's loads. Too much unknown. Ideally, they should be disassembled, properly sized then reloaded, as previously suggested.
Off topic, but......welcome back DM1906. You've been missed.
Thanks Ed. I missed being here.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 01 2015 03:19:49 PM MDT
You can use the FCD or GRX with loaded rounds. The primer isn't an issue, as the ram will either be a flat surface that engages the case head, or actually has a relief in the center (such as the Lee Bulge Buster kit ram), that prevents primer-anvil contact completely.
If your bullets are getting squeezed, using the FCD or GRX, something else is REALLY wrong, and you'll need to start from scratch. If it does this, the round won't fit in (almost) any chamber. The FCD is a case crimping die, meaning, if you are using it as such, the case w/bullet WILL pass through it at least twice. This wasn't an accident, but by design, to ensure the loaded rounds will fit the chambers. The FCD carbide ring is about chamber diameter, similar to the GRX.
As far as correcting loaded ammo with (slightly) bulged cases goes, I'd not recommend it, but I'd probably do it myself, depending on the circumstances. I've done this with my own target loads many times, but I don't know if I'd do it with other's loads. Too much unknown. Ideally, they should be disassembled, properly sized then reloaded, as previously suggested.
Well, since the Lee version using the die from their factory crimp die as the pass through, I don't see any difference. The finished round will get squeezed the exact same just by crimping it.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 04 2015 09:35:24 AM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 01 2015 03:19:49 PM MDT
You can use the FCD or GRX with loaded rounds. The primer isn't an issue, as the ram will either be a flat surface that engages the case head, or actually has a relief in the center (such as the Lee Bulge Buster kit ram), that prevents primer-anvil contact completely.
If your bullets are getting squeezed, using the FCD or GRX, something else is REALLY wrong, and you'll need to start from scratch. If it does this, the round won't fit in (almost) any chamber. The FCD is a case crimping die, meaning, if you are using it as such, the case w/bullet WILL pass through it at least twice. This wasn't an accident, but by design, to ensure the loaded rounds will fit the chambers. The FCD carbide ring is about chamber diameter, similar to the GRX.
As far as correcting loaded ammo with (slightly) bulged cases goes, I'd not recommend it, but I'd probably do it myself, depending on the circumstances. I've done this with my own target loads many times, but I don't know if I'd do it with other's loads. Too much unknown. Ideally, they should be disassembled, properly sized then reloaded, as previously suggested.
Well, since the Lee version using the die from their factory crimp die as the pass through, I don't see any difference. The finished round will get squeezed the exact same just by crimping it.
Yes. That was my point. When using the FCD for pass-through, the adjusting plug and crimp sleeve are removed, leaving only the die tube and the carbide "size" ring. The size ring is similar to the guide chamfer in any bullet seating die, only it is specifically sized to case web/head diameter. The GRX is basically the same thing, only it is designed for the single purpose of pass-through sizing. The Lee "Bulge Buster" kit is only a catch-can, ram, and a guide that prevents the case mouths from catching on the adjuster threads (it also allows the catch-can/container to sit above the die). The FCD can be used for pass-through sizing w/o the kit with a little ingenuity, but it's cheap and does what it says it does.
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 11 2015 10:48:24 AM MDT
It can be done but it is possible that the resizing may squeeze the bullet smaller, but it will work. I noticed this in the LEE FCD as a finish die and as pass through setup...
If this is true, NOT using the FCD would leave you with cartridges that won't likely fit in any near-properly sized chamber. The FCD sizing ring is not the same diameter as a case sizing die. Using a case sizing die with a seated bullet would do that, but not the FCD. In my experience, even using hard cast bullets .003" oversize will still pass through without engaging anything but the expanded case mouth, and they extract (after crimping) with no die friction.
DM1906, not trying to call you out here. But when I used my LEE FCD in 10mm with my cast bullets, results showed loose fitting bullets, the crimp held the bullet in place, but I could turn/twist them inside the casing after the FCD was used as a final step. After I pulled these rounds it showed the bullets were squeezed smaller in diameter leaving them with loose case neck tension. :-[ Maybe it was my FCD... Oh BTW this also was seen with the 45ACP FCD as well with my cast bullets. :-[
I have never used FCD for anything else but a pass through die ever since. After pass through sizing, my brass at the start of the extractor cut measures 0.4220" after this step. The carbide ring may be slightly smaller than others? ??? I'm not complaining, as it works great for the pass through process. :D
Shadow, no problems. I understand what you're saying. It is curious, and shouldn't be like that. Unless your cast bullets are way oversize, and/or the cases are exceptionally thick walled, it shouldn't be. I've used cast bullets at .358 (9mm), .403, and .455, and had only one issue with one combination in .380. Some of the Federal brass would cause the case to bulge out to FCD diameter at the bullet base. It was only that brass with that bullet at .358, so I just avoid that combination. I don't recall where I got that brass, but it's easy to identify w/o loading. It has a much more rich tint (deep copper color). It would be easy to suspect an unfinished die, but you've seen it with 2 calibers. I've had a similar thing with some very thick U.S. military .45ACP brass, but the bullet base bulge was no more than a rub in the die, so no issue with that.
That leaves your cast bullet size. Not that it is a problem, as long as you know what you have. Your measurement of .422" is spot on with mine. I just now sized mine using a .45 lead ball. It's exactly .422". Now, if your brass is elastizing out to .422", then it may be too small. Try the ball measurement, just out of curiosity. For comparison, my seating dies (RCBS and Lee) both measure .430" before the taper crimp begins. SAAMI maximum chamber diameter behind the case mouth is .424", so that leaves a .002" allowance. My OEM Glock 20 chamber is .4260" (maximum SAAMI + allowed), and the one LWD chamber (that I measured) is .4244". Even with the sloppy Glock chamber, that leaves only .0031" allowance. The LWD is less at .0024". .002" allowance is an optimal minimum, meaning your oversize bullet loads may not fit in many chambers, especially after a few rounds fired. Again, not that it's a problem, as long as you know what you have.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 04 2015 02:00:02 PM MDT
DM1906, not trying to call you out here. But when I used my LEE FCD in 10mm with my cast bullets, results showed loose fitting bullets, the crimp held the bullet in place, but I could turn/twist them inside the casing after the FCD was used as a final step. After I pulled these rounds it showed the bullets were squeezed smaller in diameter leaving them with loose case neck tension. :-[ Maybe it was my FCD... Oh BTW this also was seen with the 45ACP FCD as well with my cast bullets. :-[
I have never used FCD for anything else but a pass through die ever since. After pass through sizing, my brass at the start of the extractor cut measures 0.4220" after this step. The carbide ring may be slightly smaller than others? ??? I'm not complaining, as it works great for the pass through process. :D
A factory crimp die should NEVER be used to create neck tension. The bullet seating die should do that. If the bullets are loose in the first place adjust the seating die! I have NEVER had a bullet come loose after sliding the entire cartridge through a Lee Factory crimp die, even though I only did it with old reloads that never went through the Bulge Buster set BEFORE I seated the bullet. I do not pass any other loaded ammo through the die again, just use the crimping part to crimp them.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 07 2015 11:51:03 AM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 04 2015 02:00:02 PM MDT
DM1906, not trying to call you out here. But when I used my LEE FCD in 10mm with my cast bullets, results showed loose fitting bullets, the crimp held the bullet in place, but I could turn/twist them inside the casing after the FCD was used as a final step. After I pulled these rounds it showed the bullets were squeezed smaller in diameter leaving them with loose case neck tension. :-[ Maybe it was my FCD... Oh BTW this also was seen with the 45ACP FCD as well with my cast bullets. :-[
I have never used FCD for anything else but a pass through die ever since. After pass through sizing, my brass at the start of the extractor cut measures 0.4220" after this step. The carbide ring may be slightly smaller than others? ??? I'm not complaining, as it works great for the pass through process. :D
A factory crimp die should NEVER be used to create neck tension. The bullet seating die should do that. If the bullets are loose in the first place adjust the seating die! I have NEVER had a bullet come loose after sliding the entire cartridge through a Lee Factory crimp die, even though I only did it with old reloads that never went through the Bulge Buster set BEFORE I seated the bullet. I do not pass any other loaded ammo through the die again, just use the crimping part to crimp them.
(just for clarification)
If you are using the "crimping part to crimp them", then you are using the "sizing" part on the case mouth and wall. Using the FCD as a pass through, even on loaded rounds, only goes further down the case than simply crimping. No difference, as far as the neck tension is concerned (in regards to the sizing ring). Neck tension is created by the (primary) sizing die, NOT the seating and/or crimp die, in any sense. Crimping is a different part of the process, and should ONLY be used to close the case, either against the bullet, or into a cannelure (as applicable). If seating and crimping are combined into one process, great care should be taken to avoid over-crimping. Over-crimping can cause bullet distortion, and/or decrease neck tension.
Sort of what I was saying, but still....I haven't had one bullet loosen when running a fully reloaded round through the Lee Bulgebuster. And I've done a LOT of them as I just had boxes and boxes of reloads already assembled before I got the Bulgebuster set up. I only did it because apparently one of them early boxes I was having a few problems feeding. I figured I may have gotten some brass that was fired in a not fully supported chamber and my regular sizing die was letting some "Glock Smilies: through. ( I belong to a brass trading board and got a lot of 10mm cases through swaps) But was pointing out it is NOT my normal practice to do so. I do not recommend running fully loaded ammo through, but I have done it and had no problems.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 07 2015 01:05:21 PM MDT
Sort of what I was saying, but still....I haven't had one bullet loosen when running a fully reloaded round through the Lee Bulgebuster. And I've done a LOT of them as I just had boxes and boxes of reloads already assembled before I got the Bulgebuster set up. I only did it because apparently one of them early boxes I was having a few problems feeding. I figured I may have gotten some brass that was fired in a not fully supported chamber and my regular sizing die was letting some "Glock Smilies: through. ( I belong to a brass trading board and got a lot of 10mm cases through swaps) But was pointing out it is NOT my normal practice to do so. I do not recommend running fully loaded ammo through, but I have done it and had no problems.
No problem. I understood what you meant, but it was a little confusing in the read. A beginner may get the wrong idea.
That said, there's nothing wrong with running loaded ammo through the die, as a pass-through. The Bulge Buster kit includes a ram with a relief for the primer, meaning, it only engages the case head. If you, or anyone, is using any other method, this should be taken into consideration. However, I wouldn't iron out Glock smiles (frowns), loaded or empty. (real) Smiles = junk. Lee also includes a disclaimer in this regard, for the same reasons. The thread "Cross section of a Glock smile" explains it quite well, although I don't remember where that was (here or at GT).
[edit]
Haha. Just noticed that smiley thread is a sticky in this forum....
Quote from: DM1906The thread "Cross section of a Glock smile" explains it quite well, although I don't remember where that was (here or at GT).
Haha. Just noticed that smiley thread is a sticky in this forum....
Yes the "Cross Section of a Smiley" Started out out on GlockTalk, but when this forum started I brought that info over because it was very valuable to share...Thanks to Yondering who originally posted these pictures of the smiled brass over at GT. He and I were trying to show others that "Pass-Through Sizing" would not correct the issue where the brass was starting to shear.
Oh BTW Yondering did join this forum but hasn't been on since Aug 19th 2014
Hi, I am new to the forum but not to reloading. For my 10mm reloading I went with the Dillon Pistol Carbide does. They work really well, I check all my reloads with a cartridge Go/nogo gauge. Using the Dillon Dies all of my reloads fit in that the same way as they will in my Glock Chamber. I find there is no need for additional resizing such as using the Dillon resizer. They are not inexpensive but they work and removing the tops of the seater and the crimper is really easy without disturbing any settings.
Bazzer
Bazzer, just keep the pass through setup in your mind as you may find some brass that are expanded very low (just above the extractor cut) In all of the brass I have measured during the pull downs Starline brass measures 0.4215"-0.4220" in this area. The cartridge gauge is usually 0.4240" and my brass after the pass through process is 0.4230", some of my barrels are as as tight as the cartridge gauge...
Max expansion in the Glock factory barrels have shown to expand to 0.4340" and any more than that is starting to "SMILE"!
When you think about the sizing die, look at the carbide ring opening, there is a radiused edge to allow the cases to enter easily, and then the shell plate or shell holder are areas that do not allow case wall contact to reduce it back to original size.
This is where a full pass through whether Redding GRX or LEE FCD (guts removed Bulge Buster) works to size the area and even the extraction rims are made uniformly round in the process. This process also allows me another opportunity to see any damaged casings.
In a recent range trip I found 30 spent 10mm brass on the FBI range, all Federal cases as shot from the HK MP-5 10mm. Of those I found only 20 to be useable as the rest had splits the length of the case. This has been a very common situation with the contract ammo shot in these guns...
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 07 2016 09:23:22 AM MDT
Bazzer, just keep the pass through setup in your mind as you may find some brass that are expanded very low (just above the extractor cut) In all of the brass I have measured during the pull downs Starline brass measures 0.4215"-0.4220" in this area. The cartridge gauge is usually 0.4240" and my brass after the pass through process is 0.4230", some of my barrels are as as tight as the cartridge gauge...
Max expansion in the Glock factory barrels have shown to expand to 0.4340" and any more than that is starting to "SMILE"!
When you think about the sizing die, look at the carbide ring opening, there is a radiused edge to allow the cases to enter easily, and then the shell plate or shell holder are areas that do not allow case wall contact to reduce it back to original size.
This is where a full pass through whether Redding GRX or LEE FCD (guts removed Bulge Buster) works to size the area and even the extraction rims are made uniformly round in the process. This process also allows me another opportunity to see any damaged casings.
In a recent range trip I found 30 spent 10mm brass on the FBI range, all Federal cases as shot from the HK MP-5 10mm. Of those I found only 20 to be useable as the rest had splits the length of the case. This has been a very common situation with the contract ammo shot in these guns...
Thanks for the response. I forgot to mention 10mm and my Glock 29 are new to me. At the moment I am checking every cartridge with a Dillon Go/NoGo gauge. This gauge appears to have tighter tolerances than the chamber on my Glock. So far the only failure I have had is when I started with the taper crimp die to loose to remove the "bell" put in at the powder station. Once adjusted the problem has gone away. But in the meantime, not knowing how much crimp to put on, I'll continue to check every cartridge.
I'm new here and was looking for some 10mm powder info and this thread caught my eye. I need to make time to read the whole thing but I did see 9mm mentioned.
I compete using 9mm and reload by the thousands with bulk used brass and always end up with a handful of rounds that won't pass my chamber checker test. When a couple hundred rounds have been accumulated my Lee bulge buster setup is put into action. Since the 9mm case is tapered we use a Lee 9mm Makarov crimp die with the guts removed to work with the Bulge Buster. You can run the setup dry and I have also used a little case lube. The loaded rounds now pass the chamber test and make perfect practice ammo that I have also used in competition.
Sorry if this has already been talked about in this thread. Denny
Denny, Yes that is what many are using, the "Lee 9mm Makarov FCD" with the guts removed, as a pass-through, to insure better reliability with their 9mm Luger casings!
I use the Lee 45ACP FCD pass-through of the 45 and will utilize it as a sizer for my 410 cases, (push it up, the tap it back out, because of the rim it can go through)
I use the 380ACP FCD for pass-through of those as well.
The 10mm FCD, I use for 10mm / 40S&W /357Sig /9x25 Dillon. It is the best way to insure 100% reliability and allows yet another case inspection.
Just ordered the Lee Bulge Buster as I started to prep my 10mm brass for reloading.
I'm a fan of this forum for all the knowledgeable folks that post on here.
Here are some pics of the Bulge Buster in use, (this is my setup and shows what is used)
The die is the LEE FCD with the guts removed and a piece of card stock to keep the internal threads for snagging the cases.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/7s83m0iy5/IMG_0389.jpg)
This is a bullet push pin from a LEE bullet sizing kit, that I use to push the casings up into the LEE FCD dies with the guts removed...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/82mzqxjel/xctmpo_Pc_M2f.png)
I got the Redding GR-x pass through setup before Lee came out with this. But, I bought the Lee so I can pass through size all my .45 ACP. I guess you can't use the 9mm FCD to do 9mm Luger since the 9mm case is very slightly tapered, but heard you could use the .380 ACP FCD to do them. I have not tried that yet.
Quote from: gandog56 on February 13 2017 08:35:08 AM MST
But, I bought the Lee so I can pass through size all my .45 ACP. I guess you can't use the 9mm FCD to do 9mm Luger since the 9mm case is very slightly tapered, but heard you could use the .380 ACP FCD to do them. I have not tried that yet.
I have used the 9mm Makarov FCD successfully on 9mm Luger cases.
One other thing I have given some thought to is the metallurgy of the brass used these days. Brass can have a wide range of alloy. Things that affect strength of the casings...
Annealing (v) Multi-phased heat and stress treatment that alters the microstructure of a metal adding strength, pliability, and hardness.
Ductile, Ductility (v) A physical quality ascribed to a metal that will permit plastic elongation (wire drawing) without fracturing.
Forging (Forged) (v) Heating a metal to a temperature where the metal becomes malleable (red hot) or deforming its shape by compression or exertion of force (hammering or cold forging).
Malleable, Malleability (v) A physical quality ascribed to a metal that can be compressed, deformed, extruded, hammered, and rolled.
Plastic, Plasticity (v) A physical quality ascribed to a metal that can be bent and worked without rupturing. A non-brittle metal.
These terms were borrowed from http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/glossary_metallurgy.html (http://www.allaboutgemstones.com/glossary_metallurgy.html) to provide some insight to what metals go thru while being produced or used.
Quote from: sparkyv on January 18 2018 06:07:07 PM MST
Quote from: gandog56 on February 13 2017 08:35:08 AM MST
But, I bought the Lee so I can pass through size all my .45 ACP. I guess you can't use the 9mm FCD to do 9mm Luger since the 9mm case is very slightly tapered, but heard you could use the .380 ACP FCD to do them. I have not tried that yet.
I have used the 9mm Makarov FCD successfully on 9mm Luger cases.
Yeah, tha'ts great for the bullet end. But like I said, a 9mm is tapered. Down by the head it won't be right.
gandog56, I bought a LEE 9mm Makarov FCD to Pass-Through 9mm cases, but it is fairly tight even with lube...This is what some guys were using to do theirs. Mine seems very tight
I may try and open the carbide ring slightly with some valve grinding compound to make it easier.
Quote from: gandog56 on February 13 2017 08:35:08 AM MST
I got the Redding GR-x pass through setup before Lee came out with this. But, I bought the Lee so I can pass through size all my .45 ACP. I guess you can't use the 9mm FCD to do 9mm Luger since the 9mm case is very slightly tapered, but heard you could use the .380 ACP FCD to do them. I have not tried that yet.
Don't you have the adapter where you can screw a Mepps plastic jug into the top to collect the cases? I do.
(https://media.mwstatic.com/productimages/252x189/primary/789/789703.jpg)
(https://media.mwstatic.com/productimages/252x189/primary/471/471996.jpg)
No I don't have the adapter, (I'm just cheap :-[) so I just catch them as they come out the top of the die and drop them in a tray next to the press. Usually the 10mm will stack where I can grab 3 at a time off the top...so I feed three back to back
I have been using the Lee FCD 10mm die for running my 10mm cases through before the normal loading operations whether they really need it or not. Up until now I have loaded either lead or plated bullets exclusively. So I put the 10mm crimp guts into my Lee .44 FCD to do the two stage crimping described in this thread. I scored thousands of Montana Golds I plan to begin loading with and wondered if since they are jacketed, is it ever advisable to use the 10mm FCD with tapered crimp in it to do a final factory sizing of the case. I just loaded up a few using the old method and noticed that my Lone Wolf fluted barrel would not handle the drop test always where the KKM and factory barrel seemed to work. 3/19/20 Update on the LW barrel is I was not taking enough of the bell out of the case measuring .426 on some rounds. Put them into the FCD and they now measure .424 and chamber O.K.
Who among you uses the 10mm FCD on jacketed rounds? Will it loosen the neck tension like it could on the softer lead/plated rounds? I assume it would not deform a copper jacketed bullet.
jazzsax8, I do not use the LEE FCD to apply any crimps, only use it as a pass through setup! I use my RCBS/Seater Crimp die in the seating and separate crimps.
So I don't have to adjust my die setting for proper crimp I place a 1/8" spacer under the die to raise it up during the seating operation and then remove the space and run the seated cartridges for a finish crimp. The spacers below can adjust you expander dies for different cartridges without having to adjust the die locking ring for each.
With my expander set for 40S&W neck expansion I can place one 1/8" spacer to raise up the die for expanding for 10mm.
Here you can see that the 1/8" spacers can adjust for different cartridge lengths
This is 10mm, 40S&W & 9mm
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTzdtvh2/IMG-0553.jpg)
Here is 10mm, 40S&W 357Sig and 9x25Dillon so you can see where these can be helpful
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVTxwBdB/IMG-0552.jpg)
With my 9mm expander set for 9mm, I can place one 1/8" spacer to raise it up for 357Sig neck expansion and two 1/8' spacers for 9x25 neck expansion
I sure like the L.E. Wilson Max Pistol Cartridge Gauge
https://lewilson.com/pistol-max-gage/
Shadow
Thanks for your response on the 1/8" rings. I used to use those on my single stage loading .38/.357 and .44 spcl/.44mag. I am now using the Hornady Progressive to seat and final crimp even when I use the single stage to size and fill the cases in a loading block one at a time. I checked my Lee FCD and it measures .422. I put one of my new Noslers into it (no tapering guts of course) and it would not even touch it as the Noslers were about .421-.4215 at the case mouth. My recent loads that would not drop into my LW barrel had too much at the case mouth at .426. After putting them into the FCD they came out .424 and would work. I am currently loading an unknown brand jacketed flat nose bullet with open lead base that measures .401. With the starline cases around .011 that puts the case mouth at a minimum of .423. So when I ran them through the FCD they apparently had a .001 spring back ending up .424. They seem to have excellent neck tension.
Kenk
I like the idea of the Wilson gauge but am too frugal to pay the going rate. Put it on my search for a good used one though. I think using my tighter KKM barrel drop test is probably semi-acceptable as the G20 barrel is more forgiving.
Quote from: Kenk on March 18 2020 05:50:57 PM MDT
I sure like the L.E. Wilson Max Pistol Cartridge Gauge
https://lewilson.com/pistol-max-gage/
Thanks for the link Ken. Ive used the Wilson case gauges for years on bottleneck rifle cartridges. Never really thought about using it for pistol cartridges.
Oh well there goes more money. [emoji16]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Lol, but they work well, at least for my needs