I put this on another forum and thought it should be here also. This will be an ongoing process.
Guns: Caspian 6" Custom , STI Perfect 10 , G20SF w/extra LWD 5.47" barrel.
Jacketed bullets: Nosler 135 HP, Nosler 150 HP, Nosler 180 HP, Hornady 200 XTP
Cast bullets: 190gr LFNGC, 215gr WFNGC
Powders: AA7, AA9, Blue Dot
Primers: Winchester WLP
Brass: Starline
*****Be SAFE and work up to theses levels in your guns*****Bullet: Nos 135 gr OAL: 1.245"
| Powder | Charge | Pressure* (psi) | Caspian 6" | STI 6" | LWD 5.47" | G20SF 4.6" |
| AA7 | 12.0 | 24,110 | 1390 | | | |
| AA7 | 13.0 | | 1496 | 1530 | 1446 | 1365 |
| AA7 | 14.0 | | 1558 | 1610 | | |
| AA7 | 14.5 | | | | | 1455 |
| AA7 | 15.0 | | 1589 | 1673 | | 1489 |
| AA9 | 15.0 | 24,400 | 1293 | | | |
| AA9 | 16.0 | 29,800 | 1386 | 1384 | | |
| AA9 | 16.5 | | | 1425 | | |
| AA9 | 17.0 | 36,600 | 1476 | 1459 | | |
| Blue Dot | 12.0 | | 1427 | 1332 | | |
| Blue Dot | 12.5 | | | 1403 | | 1257 |
| Blue Dot | 13.0 | 24,400 | 1485 | 1447 | | 1316 |
| Blue Dot | 14.0 | 26,800 | 1569 | | | 1385 |
Bullet: Nosler 150gr HP OAL: 1.250"
| Powder | Charge | Pressure* (psi) | Caspian 6" | STI 6" | LWD 5.47" | G20SF 4.6" |
| AA7 | 13.0 | | 1405 | | 1457 | 1343 |
| AA7 | 13.5 | | 1455 | | | |
| AA7 | 14.0 | | 1522 | 1540 | 1483 | 1404 |
| AA7 | 14.5 | | | 1583 | 1502 | 1443 |
| AA7 | 15.0 | | | | | 1485 |
| AA9 | 15.0gr | 31,400 | 1327 | | | |
| AA9 | 15.5 | | 1374 | | | |
| AA9 | 16.0 | 39,400 | 1410 | 1385 | 1353 | |
| AA9 | 16.5 | 44,290 | 1395 | 1402 | 1394 | |
| Blue Dot | 11.5 | 27,200 | 1342 | | 1250 | |
| Blue Dot | 12.0 | 29,510 | 1374 | | 1306 | |
| Blue Dot | 12.5 | | | | 1365 | |
Bullet: Nosler 180gr HP OAL: 1.250"
| Powder | Charge | Pressure* (psi) | Caspian 6" | STI 6" | LWD 5.47" | G20SF 4.6" |
| AA7 | 11.0 | | 1219 | | | |
| AA7 | 11.5 | | 1272 | | 1256 | 1200 |
| AA7 | 12.0 | | 1303 | | | |
| AA9 | 12.0 | | 1093 | | | |
| AA9 | 12.5 | 32,100 | 1136 | | | |
| AA9 | 13.0 | 36,800 | 1180 | | | |
| Blue Dot | 9.5 | | | 1081 | | |
| Blue Dot | 10.0gr | | | 1145 | 1077 | |
| Blue Dot | 10.5 | | | 1196 | 1156 | |
Bullet: Cast 190gr FNGC OAL: 1.245"
| Powder | Charge | Pressure* (psi) | Caspian 6" | STI 6" | LWD 5.47" | G20SF 4.6" |
| AA7 | 11.0 | | | | | 1154 |
| AA7 | 11.5 | | | | | 1214 |
| AA7 | 12.0 | | | | 1325 | 1225 |
| AA9 | 12.0 | | 1135 | | | |
| AA9 | 12.5 | | 1177 | | | 1053 |
| AA9 | 13.0 | | 1212 | | | 1058 |
| AA9 | 14.0 | | | 1263 | | |
| AA9 | 15.0 | | | 1325 | | |
| Blue Dot | 8.0 | | 1120 | | | |
| Blue Dot | 8.5 | | 1165 | | | |
| Blue Dot | 9.0 | | 1210 | | | |
Bullet: Hornady 200 XTP OAL: 1.260"
| Powder | Charge | Pressure* (psi) | Caspian 6" | STI 6" | LWD 5.47" | G20SF 4.6" |
| AA7 | 10.0 | | 1126 | 1146 | 1120 | |
| AA7 | 10.5 | | 1168 | 1180 | 1164 | |
| AA7 | 11.0 | | 1211 | 1188 | 1208 | |
| AA7 | 11.5 | | | 1268 | 1245 | |
| AA7 | 12.0 | | | | 1301 | |
| AA9 | 12.0 | 38,200 | 1110 | 1112 | 1082 | |
| AA9 | 12.5 | 43,200 | 1145 | 1134 | 1096 | |
| AA9 | 13.0 | | | 1164 | 1122 | |
| Blue Dot | 8.0 | | 1061 | | | |
| Blue Dot | 8.5 | | 1102 | | 940 | 924 |
| Blue Dot | 9.0 | | 1191 | | 981 | 963 |
| Blue Dot | 9.5 | | | | | 1040 |
Bullet: Cast 215gr WNGC OAL: 1.245"
| Powder | Charge | Pressure* (psi) | Caspian 6" | STI 6" | LWD 5.47" | G20SF 4.6" |
| AA7 | 11.0 | | 1233 | 1238 | | |
| AA7 | 11.5 | | | 1274 | | 1181 |
| AA7 | 12.0 | | | | 1268 | 1231 |
| AA9 | 12.0 | | | 1122 | | |
| AA9 | 12.5 | | | 1146 | | |
| AA9 | 13.0 | | | 1200 | | |
Original post updated to table form.
*Pressure data derived from Quickload estimates, not from measurement.
Thanks. This is good data. I have the first section reformatted as a table below. I will work through the others today.
--Table placed in original post--
Thanks sqlbullet, I could not figure out how to do that. ???
Sean
No problem. It is a little different, but a feature many forums either don't enable or don't have. I am going to post a how-to later in the questions/suggestions section.
Hey Thanks, for the data. I pushed the Hornady 200gr XTP with 10.5 grains of Blue Dot, CCI350, COAL of 1.260" which yieled 1180-1200 fps from my 5" 1006. This was based off Speer Data with their 200 FMJ testing with the Colt Delta Elite...
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/Speer10mmSupplmentData-1.jpg)
More loads added***6-25-12
This will be an ongoing process**
Guns used are Caspian 6" Custom , STI Perfect 10 , G20SF w/extra LWD 5.47" barrel.
**************Be SAFE and work up to theses levels in your guns***********
Bullet weights will be Nosler 135 ,150,180 gr HP's, Hornady 200 XTP, cast bullets 190gr LFNGC ,215gr WFNGC. 3 different powders at this time, AA7 ,AA9, Blue Dot . Primers are ALLWAYS Winchester WLP. Cases Starline.
Bullet----------Powder---------Charge-------Caspian 6"---------STI 6"--------LWD 5.47"---------G20SF- 4.6"
Nosler 135 gr - OAL= 1.245"""-------------------AA7-----------12.0gr----------1390--QL Pressure 24,110 PSI
""--QL Pr 29,830---AA7------------13 -------------1496 ---------- 1530-----------1446--------------------1365
""--QL Pr 33,900---AA7-----------14 -------------1558----------- 1610
""--QL Pr 37,700--AA7 -----------14.5-------------------------------------------------------------------------1455
""------------------AA7-------------15-------------------------------1673--------------------------------------1489
""-----------------AA9-------------15.0gr----------1293--QL Pressure-24,400 PS
-----------------AA9-------------16---------------1386--------------1384--QL Pressure-29,800 PSI
""-----------------AA9--------------16.5-------------------------------1425--QL Pressure-
""-----------------AA9--------------17---------------1476-------------1459--QL Pressure 36,660 PSI
""----------------Blue Dot----------12.0gr-----------1427-------------1332
""----------------Blue Dot-----------12.5--------------------------------1403--QL Pressure 24,400 PSI---------1257
""----------------Blue Dot-------------13--------------1485--------------1447--QL Pressure 26,800 PSI---------1316
""---------------Blue Dot-----------14----------------1569--------------------------------------------------------1385
Nosler 150gr HP- OAL 1.250"---Charge---------Caspian 6"---------STI6"--------LWD 5.47"--------------G20SF 4.6"
""-QL Pr 30,650--AA7-------------13.0gr-----------1405----------------------------------1457---------------1343
""-QL Pr 34,380--AA7-------------13.5--------------1455
""------------------AA7-------------14-----------------1522---------------1540-------------1483--------------1404
""-QL Pr 38,590--AA7-------------14.5----------------------------------1583--------------1502--------------1443
""-QL Pr 43,340--AA7-------------15---------------------------------------------------------------------------1485
""------------------AA9-------------15.0gr-----------1327--QL Pressure 31,400 PSI
""------------------AA9-------------15.5--------------1374--
""------------------AA9-------------16----------------1410-------------1385---------------1353--QL Pressure 39,400 PSI
""------------------AA9--------------16.5-------------1395-------------1402---------------1394--QL Press 44,290 PSI
""-----------------Blue Dot---------11.5gr------------1342---------------------------------1250--QL Press 27,020
""-----------------Blue Dot---------12-----------------1374---------------------------------1306--QL Press 29,510
""-----------------Blue Dot---------12.5------------------------------------------------------1365
Nosler 180gr HP- OAL 1.250"---Charge---------Caspian 6"--------STI 6"-----------LWD 5.47"-------------G20SF 4.6"
""-QL Pr 28,790--AA7------------11.0gr-------------1219
""-QL Pr 32,660--AA7------------11.5---------------1272------------------------------1256------------------1200
""-QL Pr 35,430--AA7------------12-----------------1303
""------------------AA9------------12.0gr-------------1093
""------------------AA9------------12.5---------------1136--QL Pressure 32,100 PSI
""------------------AA9------------13-----------------1180--QL Pressure 36,800 PSI
""-QL Pr 23,100--Blue Dot--------9.5----------------------------------1081
""-QL Pr 26,450--Blue Dot---------10.0gr-----------------------------1145------------1077
""-QL Pr 30,270--Blue Dot--------10.5---------------------------------1196-------------1156
Cast 190gr FNGC OAL 1.245"---Charge-------Caspian 6"----------STI 6"----------LWD 5.47"----------G20SF 4.6"
""-QL Pr 32,490--AA7-------------11.0gr------------------------------------------------------------------------1154
""-QL Pr 37,410--AA7-------------11.5---------------------------------------------------------------------------1214
""-QL Pr 38,480--AA7-------------12-----------------------------------------------------------1325-------------1225
""-----------------AA9-------------12.0gr-----------1135
""-QL Pr 36,440--AA9------------12.5-------------1177--------------------------------------------------------1053
""-QL Pr 39,100--AA9-------------13----------------1212--------------------------------------------------------1058
""-QL Pr 25,100-Blue Dot---------8.0gr-------------1120
""-QL Pr 28,200-Blue Dot---------8.5----------------1165
""-QL Pr 30,400-Blue Dot---------9------------------1210
Nosler 200 HP OAL 1.260"------Charge-------Caspian 6"----------STI 6"-------LWD 5.47"------------GS20SF 4.6"
""-----------------AA7------------11.5gr---------------------------------------------------------------------------1205
""-----------------AA9------------13.0gr----------------------------------------------------------------------------1085
""-----------------AA9------------13.5----------------------------------------------------------Compressed-----1149
""----------------Blue Dot--------10.0gr--------------------------------------------------------------------------1072
""----------------Blue Dot--------10.5----------------------------------------------------------------------------1108
Hornady 200 XTP OAL 1.260"---Charge-------Caspian 6"----------STI 6"-------LWD 5.47"------------G20SF 4.6"
""-QL Pr 29,880--AA7------------10.0gr-----------1126-------------1146--------------1120
""-QL Pr 35,500--AA7------------10.5--------------1168------------1180--------------1164
""-QL Pr 38,510--AA7------------11----------------1211-------------1188--------------1208
""-QL Pr 41,200--AA7------------11.5--------------------------------1268--------------1245
""-QL Pr 46,800--AA7------------12------------------------------------------------------1301
""-QL Pr 38,200--AA9------------12.0gr------------1110-------------1112--------------1082--QL Pressure 38,200
""-QL Pr 43,200--AA9------------12.5--------------1145-------------1134--------------1096--QL Pressure 43,200
""-QL Pr 44,400--AA9------------13-----------------------------------1164--------------1122
""-----------------Blue Dot---------8.0gr------------1061
""-----------------Blue Dot---------8.5--------------1102----------------------------------940-------------------924
""-QL Pr 26,900--Blue Dot---------9-----------------1191---------------------------------981--------------------963
""-QL Pr 31,270--Blue Dot---------9.5-----------------------------------------------------------------------------1040
Cast 215gr WNGC OAL 1.245"--Charge--------Caspian 6"----------STI 6"-----------LWD 5.47"------------G20SF 4.6"
""-QL Pr 40,810-- AA7-------------11.0gr-----------1233-------------1238
""-QL Pr 42,090--AA7-------------11.5--------------------------------1274--------------------------------------1181
""-QL Pr 49,520--AA7-------------12--------------------------------------------------------1268----------------1231
""-QL Pr 42,308--AA9-------------12.0gr------------------------------1122
""-QL Pr 46,740--AA9-------------12.5--------------------------------1146
""-QL Pr 53,600--AA9-------------13-----------------------------------1200
[/quote]
Tablized (and corrected from my previous post where some velocties were in the wrong column)
--Table placed in original post--
Looking good, thanks sqlbullet.
Sean
Can this be sticky'd.
I will be adding Quickload pressure data to all of the loads listed for the 6" Caspian barrel.
Sean
Yes its possible to make it a sticky, perhapse after you have the dada added then sqlbullet, could organize and add it to the nice table (very professional looking) then pin it. I am sure many would be interested to look at the pressure estimations, I know I would. Better than working completely blind!
It would be interesting to compare pressures for the 6" to the Glock 4.6" from the QuickLoads software...
The Glock 20 4.6" & Glock 29 is 3.78" barrels are more common so those estimations could benefit some people as well.
Sounds like a plan. Once the pressure data is posted, I will tablize and preview it, then amend the original post with the data and make it sticky.
It would be interesting to compare pressures for the 6" to the Glock 4.6" from the QuickLoads software...
The Glock 20 4.6" & Glock 29 is 3.78" barrels are more common so those estimations could benefit some people as well.
[/quote]
Pressures do NOT change with barrel length , the pressure peak happens in 30-60 MS (milliseconds)inside the chamber. This was very eye opening to me.
Sean
Quote from: 475/480 on July 12 2012 10:27:07 AM MDT
...the pressure curve happens in 30-60 MS (milliseconds)inside the chamber...
This should be amended to say the pressure peak, which is what I sure you meant. The curve continues until the bullet has left the barrel and the interior pressure is equalized with local atmosphere.
This I knew. Once the bullet starts moving the size of the chamber effectively becomes variable, as it is the space between the bottom inside of the case and the base of the bullet. Since that distance is very small, it grows very fast. While the powder may continue to burn and produce more volume of gas, it cannot keep up with the increasing volume of the chamber, and so pressure drops as soon as the bullet begins to move and continues to drop unless the bullet becomes stuck in the bore due to an obstruction.
This curve will have the same calculated values at a given point in time after ignition regardless of how much more barrel it must traverse. All that changes with a different barrel length is the point at which the pressure drops back to local atmosphere.
However, muzzle pressures do change, because the muzzle has moved both spatially in relation to the breech as well as in time in relation to the pressure curve. The closer to the breech the higher the muzzle pressure will be. And muzzle blast.
Is peak pressure reached when a bullet first engages rifling in the barrel, or before?
Every gun is different, but as a general rule if you have a good leade, pressure will not return to the values reached in case. It will spike a little as the rifling is engaged, but usually not the peak.
If the bullet encounters something that halts or seriously retards it's travel (abrupt transition to rifling, for instance) then pressure may spike at that point. Similarly if you encounter a bore obstruction 15" down the barrel, peak pressure will occur at that point.
At least that is my limited understanding. I am just beginning my journey into internal ballistics.
Thanks. My thoughts were based on a WAG that when the bullet engages the rifling (beginning of partial barrel obstruction + twist or spin on the bullet, all at the same time), that that would probably be where greatest resistance would be met, and therefore greatest peak pressure.
This is completed *
The QuickLoad pressure predictions have been added to my chart.
Sean
Quote from: 475/480 on June 21 2012 07:06:04 AM MDT
I put this on another forum and thought it should be here also.
Hey there sir,
I'm curious what kind of pressure signs you're seeing with your AA7 200gr XTP loads. Super high velocity... speeds I'm really leary of since you're using AA7... plus, the AA9 numbers are lower? Do you regularly push 200gr XTP's with AA7?? Those speeds even seem high for a 180gr XTP....
Please explain! Inquiring minds want to know! If I could use AA7 for 200gr bullets and get that velocity, I'd use NOTHING BUT AA7....
That really is an awesome comparison. I wish we had one like that for factory ammo too.
Quote from: nickE10mm on July 17 2012 01:22:59 PM MDTHey there sir,
I'm curious what kind of pressure signs you're seeing with your AA7 200gr XTP loads. Super high velocity... speeds I'm really leary of since you're using AA7... plus, the AA9 numbers are lower? Do you regularly push 200gr XTP's with AA7?? Those speeds even seem high for a 180gr XTP....
Please explain! Inquiring minds want to know! If I could use AA7 for 200gr bullets and get that velocity, I'd use NOTHING BUT AA7....
Hi ,
I must say, ALL I have ever used in the 10MM for top end loads is AA7. Pressure signs are not severe in any of the 180 gr and 200 gr XTP loads, the STI and Caspian gun throws the brass 20+ feet :D.. And of course every gun is different , I thought I would have a little better velocity with AA9 but it did not happen.
The primers do flatten out as you approach the higher pressure ( 38,000+/-) PSI but I think that is fairly normal with Winchester-LP primers and top end loads.
Also MOST (NOT all) of the higher pressure loads were shot in fully supported barrels-- STI, Caspian ,LWD.
Sean
Quote from: 475/480 on July 18 2012 06:19:28 AM MDT
ALL I have ever used in the 10MM for top end loads is AA7. Pressure signs are not severe in any of the 180 gr and 200 gr XTP loads...
Sean
Interesting. I'll have to give some a try once I'm up and running. That does go against what Accurate's own 10mm load data shows, but clearly worth a try anyway. How clean of burning is it (AA7) in your view?
I'm on data overload!!! I love it!
Interesting. I'll have to give some a try once I'm up and running. That does go against what Accurate's own 10mm load data shows, but clearly worth a try anyway. How clean of burning is it (AA7) in your view?
[/quote]
IMO -AA7 burns very cleanly. I am going out of town at 1pm today going to Goliad ,Tx . I will try to get a hog with the STI 10 with 215 gr WFNGC at 1230 fps, this load shoots great at 25-50 yards LOAD - AA7 -11.0gr
This target was shot at 25 yards from the bench with the 215 gr WFNGC at 1230 fps.
Sean
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/STIrangstargetpics004.jpg
Quote from: 475/480 on July 16 2012 01:16:46 PM MDT
This is completed *
The QuickLoad pressure predictions have been added to my chart.
Sean
I am working on updating the table and putting it in the original post. It may take me a day or two as I figure out the best way to include the new data.
Or maybe I will get stuck on a conference call and do it in an hour :D
Original post updated with latest data in table, and thread is now tacked.
Quote from: 475/480 on July 20 2012 06:44:21 AM MDT
Interesting. I'll have to give some a try once I'm up and running. That does go against what Accurate's own 10mm load data shows, but clearly worth a try anyway. How clean of burning is it (AA7) in your view?
IMO -AA7 burns very cleanly. I am going out of town at 1pm today going to Goliad ,Tx . I will try to get a hog with the STI 10 with 215 gr WFNGC at 1230 fps, this load shoots great at 25-50 yards LOAD - AA7 -11.0gr
This target was shot at 25 yards from the bench with the 215 gr WFNGC at 1230 fps.
Sean
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/STIrangstargetpics004.jpg
[/quote]
Good to know. Went with your thoughts and loaded up some AA7 under some 155gr XTPs. I haven't seen the results yet, and it is my first attempt at handloading, but will find out one of these days. Right now I'm looking to get my crimping issue figured out before moving further, as you can see in my new threads in this subforum.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 22 2012 04:50:58 PM MDT
Quote from: 475/480 on July 20 2012 06:44:21 AM MDT
Interesting. I'll have to give some a try once I'm up and running. That does go against what Accurate's own 10mm load data shows, but clearly worth a try anyway. How clean of burning is it (AA7) in your view?
IMO -AA7 burns very cleanly. I am going out of town at 1pm today going to Goliad ,Tx . I will try to get a hog with the STI 10 with 215 gr WFNGC at 1230 fps, this load shoots great at 25-50 yards LOAD - AA7 -11.0gr
This target was shot at 25 yards from the bench with the 215 gr WFNGC at 1230 fps.
Sean
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x150/475480/STIrangstargetpics004.jpg
Good to know. Went with your thoughts and loaded up some AA7 under some 155gr XTPs. I haven't seen the results yet, and it is my first attempt at handloading, but will find out one of these days. Right now I'm looking to get my crimping issue figured out before moving further, as you can see in my new threads in this subforum.
[/quote]
DAMN good shooting Sean!! What was the distance?
Personally I haven't used AA7 in some time, no real reason other then other powders have worked well enough I did not "need" to look farther.
CW
DAMN good shooting Sean!! What was the distance?
CW
[/quote]
Distance was 25 yards off bench.
I bought 1lb of Longshot this weekend and will get some loads worked up with Nosler 135,150,180 gr HP's and Hornady 180 and 200 gr XTP.
Sean
Quote from: 475/480 on July 23 2012 07:29:06 AM MDT
DAMN good shooting Sean!! What was the distance?
CW
Distance was 25 yards off bench.
I bought 1lb of Longshot this weekend and will get some loads worked up with Nosler 135,150,180 gr HP's and Hornady 180 and 200 gr XTP.
Sean
[/quote]
I bought my first pound of longshot last month too!! So far I haven't reached top loads but velocity is very respectable!
I like Bluedot as well as 800X for top loadings. I'm hoping Longshot is as good at lower pressures. So far it appears it will be.
CW
Quote from: nickE10mm on July 17 2012 01:22:59 PM MDT
Quote from: 475/480 on June 21 2012 07:06:04 AM MDT
I put this on another forum and thought it should be here also.
Hey there sir,
I'm curious what kind of pressure signs you're seeing with your AA7 200gr XTP loads. Super high velocity... speeds I'm really leary of since you're using AA7... plus, the AA9 numbers are lower? Do you regularly push 200gr XTP's with AA7?? Those speeds even seem high for a 180gr XTP....
Please explain! Inquiring minds want to know! If I could use AA7 for 200gr bullets and get that velocity, I'd use NOTHING BUT AA7....
That data lines up pretty well with my AA7 and AA9 results too. Hornady published AA7 data with those loads in one of their manuals, but then backed way off in later manuals. Some claim Hornady printed a mistake with those hotter loads; I'm not so sure. 15gr AA7 under a 155gr MG JHP runs at 1600 fps from my 6.6" G20L.
AA9 gives lower velocity because it's bulky, and limited by case capacity, not pressure.
Quote from: Yondering on July 30 2012 11:24:34 AM MDT
Some claim Hornady printed a mistake with those hotter loads; I'm not so sure. 15gr AA7 under a 155gr MG JHP runs at 1600 fps from my 6.6" G20L.
I was going to give Hornady a call questioning that very thing. Maybe tomorrow.
Called Hornady regarding the Hornady 6th Edition load manual data on a 155gr XTP and 15.1gr Accurate No. 7.
I was told they don't use those numbers anymore and the claim was they have revised the data in the newest load manual based on now using piezoelectric pressure testing equipment over the copper crusher method they used to use.
So their newest load data with 155gr XTP bullets and Accurate No. 7 powder in now shown with a starting load of 11.9 grains up to a maximum of 12.7 grains. The 6th edition load manual showed a starting load of the same 11.9 grains, but going to the 15.1 grain maximum.
I asked what pressure reading their new pressure testing equipment showed at the new maximum of 12.7 grains. Direct quote; That is probably going to be right at about 30,000. I wonder what he meant by probably.
This is all quite mind boggling knowing that Accurate's own load data tells us that a load consisting of: 155 Hornady XTP, 12.7 grains of Accurate No. 7, COL of 1.250", and a Winchester LP primer, yields 37,500 psi.
So, take it all for what it's worth. At this point I'ld say all of the above is worth waaaaaaaaaaaaay less than 2 cents. So, I guess it's back to fiddling till you blow yourself up. :D
One of the big differences between the two measurement systems is "time at pressure". The piezoelectric measurement system looks at the peak pressure value, regardless of the time value, and resulted in reduction of a lot of load data when it was implemented. The crusher system gives a measurement of how much the copper pellet is crushed (obviously), which involves some time value.
Pressure signs with hot AA7 loads are unusual, compared to most other powders, like Blue Dot. With Blue Dot, in my experience, flattened primers show up just a little before, or at the same time, as case bulges or "smiles" show up. With AA7, flattened primers seem to show up waaay before any case bulges. I've gotten flat primers with 12.5-13gr AA7 and a 155gr bulle, but even at that 15gr load above, I haven't seen any sign of case bulging. This is in my LW barrel which has about the same unsupported area as a stock G20 barrel.
This tells me that either 1) the fine AA7 ball powder is leaking into the primer pocket and causing the flattened primers early, and/or 2) that AA7 has a pressure spike that occurs too fast to bulge the brass, even though it may technically be over the pressure limit.
That is interesting.
So, take it all for what it's worth. At this point I'ld say all of the above is worth waaaaaaaaaaaaay less than 2 cents. So, I guess it's back to fiddling till you blow yourself up. :D
[/quote]
Exactly :D .
IMO ,NO way can pressures given by the ammo companies be EXACT. To many variables .
I wonder how accurate the gauges are that they use now-adays. Who calibrated the FIRST gauge many years ago and what was used as a STANDARD (they had NOTHING to go by back in the day).
Sean
And beyond that, just the variations in different barrels. Little things like throat length make a big difference in pressure. How was the test barrel set up? All good reasons to start low and work up with any load.
Fascinating info here ... I've always wondered if I need to go back and mess with AA7 some more. I'd really like to know if the primer flattening is a sign of overpressure or something totally different. I really like AA7 but was always too scared to push it.
Quote from: nickE10mm on August 21 2012 12:00:56 PM MDT
Fascinating info here ... I've always wondered if I need to go back and mess with AA7 some more. I'd really like to know if the primer flattening is a sign of overpressure or something totally different. I really like AA7 but was always too scared to push it.
IMHO- in a semi-auto , a primer getting flatter is a sign pressure is going up .
In a revolver it could be a question of the headspacing or a few other variables.
Sean
Some 10mm brass gets shorter with use which can increase the headspacing slightly thus allowing the primer some movement. Therefore without actual pressure testing we are only guessing? ???
Quote from: 475/480 on August 23 2012 08:31:23 AM MDT
Quote from: nickE10mm on August 21 2012 12:00:56 PM MDT
Fascinating info here ... I've always wondered if I need to go back and mess with AA7 some more. I'd really like to know if the primer flattening is a sign of overpressure or something totally different. I really like AA7 but was always too scared to push it.
IMHO- in a semi-auto , a primer getting flatter is a sign pressure is going up .
In a revolver it could be a question of the headspacing or a few other variables.
Sean
There's something weird with AA7 compared to other good 10mm powders; primer flattening shows up a long ways before case smiles or other major pressure signs are found. With other powders, like Blue Dot, the relationship between primer flattening and other pressure signs is much closer. Example: in my longslide, 155gr JHP's over 15gr AA7 gives no pressure signs except flat primers, and does about 1600 fps. Reducing the charge all the way back to 12.5gr with the same components still shows flat primers, with much lower velocity.
I'm not recommending to ignore the primer flattening, just saying that AA7 acts differently, and I'm not sure why.
The Flattest primer I ever got was with AA#9 testing it with 10mm 140 gr Barnes TAC XP seated to 1.260" these are 0.680"
12.6 grains of AA#9 (I was trying 13.0grains but had to adjust powder shoving the bullet back out 1.270")(Totally compressed @ 12.6 gr.) @ 1181 fps from the S&W 1006 5", Primer was totally flattened to the edges. It penetrated 5" of sandy dirt and the bullet failed to open, partially folded in on itself. Case expanded to 0.4280
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0417-1.jpg)
Picture added...it was down the other day!
I hope someday we find out what Accurate No. 7 has against primers, while not showing other pressure signs. Weird stuff. And why isn't any other powder doing the same? I've seen mention around here that it is maybe just that with A7 being so fine grained, possibly enough of it gets into the flash hole, causing this specific issue. But then the strange part to me about that, is even when pushed quite hard, it doesn't seem to be causing primer pocket stretching. It is a very interestingly curious nature going on there.
Quote from: REDLINE on August 23 2012 10:30:10 PM MDT
I hope someday we find out what Accurate No. 7 has against primers, while not showing other pressure signs. Weird stuff. And why isn't any other powder doing the same? I've seen mention around here that it is maybe just that with A7 being so fine grained, possibly enough of it gets into the flash hole, causing this specific issue. But then the strange part to me about that, is even when pushed quite hard, it doesn't seem to be causing primer pocket stretching. It is a very interestingly curious nature going on there.
No. 9 does the same in my experience. I would believe the hypothesis (Yondering is the first I heard mention this) regarding the small granules filling the voided spaces inside the primer. I don't know for sure though.
Quote from: Taterhead on August 25 2012 10:43:09 PM MDT
No. 9 does the same in my experience.
Wow. Haven't heard that yet.
Tater and Red....
Please disregard this as a cause. It's the nature of the specific powders, and NOT the size of the granules. Many other powders are this fine, and more so, with no similar issues reported. If it were a real condition, it would be more prevalent than just isolated situations. If it were, any powder that is small enough to fall through the flash hole would suffer similar inconsistencies. There are lots, including some of the most revered powders ever used.
Quote from: DM1906 on September 06 2012 12:55:43 AM MDT
Tater and Red....
Please disregard this as a cause. It's the nature of the specific powders, and NOT the size of the granules. Many other powders are this fine, and more so, with no similar issues reported. If it were a real condition, it would be more prevalent than just isolated situations. If it were, any powder that is small enough to fall through the flash hole would suffer similar inconsistencies. There are lots, including some of the most revered powders ever used.
This exact reply is something I've been thinking/pondering as well. Any other thoughts on that?
Quote from: REDLINE on September 15 2012 02:57:00 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on September 06 2012 12:55:43 AM MDT
Tater and Red....
Please disregard this as a cause. It's the nature of the specific powders, and NOT the size of the granules. Many other powders are this fine, and more so, with no similar issues reported. If it were a real condition, it would be more prevalent than just isolated situations. If it were, any powder that is small enough to fall through the flash hole would suffer similar inconsistencies. There are lots, including some of the most revered powders ever used.
This exact reply is something I've been thinking/pondering as well. Any other thoughts on that?
Flattened LPP's are a fact of life with full "magnum" rounds, in every caliber. If you regularly load full pressure magnums, you're gonna see flat primers. Extruded/mushroomed primers, well that's a different story. If you use LPP's in full pressure .454's, they primers will extrude and fully fill the pocket. Nearly the same with full pressure .41M and .44M loads. The full power 10mm is in the same pressure neighborhood so, theoretically, should experience the same.
I'm honestly still FLOORED that AA7 QL pressures are lower (in most cases) than respective AA9 pressures.... I LOVED AA7 when I used it (the metering, the charges, the versatility, the SMELL, the color... yes, mostly trivial) but I always stayed within current book loads so I never really got over 180gr XTP / 10.9gr level of power. It was one of my first powders so I never pushed it.
Baffled....
I was able to get to the range this weekend to shoot some of the Mountainmolds 230 gr LFNGC (73% meplat) in the STI 10 -6" bll and the Kimber Target II- 5" bll. I will try to post some QL pressure estimates later today.
I shot these at 25 yards off sand bags and most loads show good accuracy at 25 yards in both guns.
STI- 6" bll.
AA7- 9.0gr = 1046
AA7- 9.5gr = 1073
AA7- 10.0gr = 1127
AA9- 10.0gr = 954
AA9- 10.5gr = 988
AA9- 11.0gr = 1023
Blue Dot - 8.0gr = 983
Blue Dot - 8.5gr =1047
Blue Dot - 9.0gr =1079
Blue Dot - 9.5gr =1129** QL Est . = 42,700 PSI
Long Shot - 6.5gr = 1051
Long Shot - 7.0gr = 1099
Long Shot - 7.5gr = 1142
Kimber 5" bll
AA7- 9.0gr = 1003
AA7- 9.5gr = 1041 **QL Est. = 34,700 PSI
AA7- 10.0gr = 1095 **QL Est. = 40,300
AA9- 10.0gr = 896 **QL Est. = 31,500
AA9- 10.5gr = 948
AA9- 11.0gr = 991**QL Est. = 40,900
AA9- 11.5gr = 1018 **QL Est. = 46,100
Blue Dot - 8.0gr = 920** QL Est. = 27,800
Blue Dot - 8.5gr = 998
Blue Dot - 9.0gr = 1028** QL Est. = 35,700
Long Shot - 6.5gr = 1011**QL Est. = 36,000
Long Shot - 7.0gr = 1070**QL Est. = 44,300
Long Shot - 7.5gr = 1107**QL Est. = 51,100 Difficult to figure out if this is accurate,primers were flat but not cratered
Sean
Hey Sean....What is the significance of the ** on some of the loads.
I just use that to seperate it from the previous number.
Sean
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 09 2013 08:14:12 AM MDT
Hey Sean....What is the significance of the ** on some of the loads.
I'm having a hard time buying into those QL estimates. They just seem high to me.
They are estimates...and are meant to be "conservative" to prevent guys from blowing up guns. When in doubt, the designers designed it to report the higher end of the pressure deviance.
If that's true, and they're showing high numbers on purpose, IMO it's really not very intelligent. Either that or they simply can't figure a way to make the estimates come out properly which IMO makes the program useless.
That would be like like a vehicle manufacturer purposefully setting speedometers to read 10 MPH over actual to prevent guys that speed from speeding, or at least speeding less MPH over any given posted limit.
At the end of the day it isn't doing anyone any favors. And you always have to figure a certain percentage of the population is going to do stupid stuff.
Added some Nosler 200 gr HP loads. Post #6
Sean
Sean, I really have my doubts with the QL numbers? ??? I know that it is a math equation based on the user inputs and the data built into the program using specific power, bullets & primer and based on brass internals.
If those numbers are in fact real, then some of the commercial loads are off the charts... :o
If I would have been born rich instead of so good lookin' ;D I would invest in a pressure testing rig just to see where we are at!
It would be nice to see some real world pressure numbers, based on the loads Kevin Underwood, Buffalo Bore and Mike McNett are selling to John Q Public!
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 10 2013 02:02:18 PM MDT
Sean, I really have my doubts with the QL numbers? ??? I know that it is a math equation based on the user inputs and the data built into the program using specific power, bullets & primer and based on brass internals.
If those numbers are in fact real, then some of the commercial loads are off the charts... :o
If I would have been born rich instead of so good lookin' ;D I would invest in a pressure testing rig just to see where we are at!
It would be nice to see some real world pressure numbers, based on the loads Kevin Underwood, Buffalo Bore and Mike McNett are selling to John Q Public!
AMEN!
Quote from: 475/480 on June 10 2013 06:14:08 AM MDT
Added some Nosler 200 gr HP loads. Post #6
Sean
Lookin good!
I see you got that 11.5gr AA7 load right at a nice Norma spec level from your G20SF (4.6" barrel), hitting 1205. Did you use a Magnum LP primer in that one?
I think right around 14.0gr of AA9 should do about equal. At 14.0gr of AA9 I had a hard time getting any lower than 1.263" (COL) without crushing an XTP nose. That's okay though since Glock magazines handle 1.263". I've been meaning to try it while seating and crimping separately, just haven't got that far yet.
Redline, I tested my new G20SF using 13 grains AA#9 Hornady 200XTP, see results here http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/10mm-200xtp-13-0-aa9-test/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/10mm-200xtp-13-0-aa9-test/)
LOL, I just came from there. 8)
Standard WLP primer
Sean
Lookin good!
I see you got that 11.5gr AA7 load right at a nice Norma spec level from your G20SF (4.6" barrel), hitting 1205. Did you use a Magnum LP primer in that one?
I think right around 14.0gr of AA9 should do about equal. At 14.0gr of AA9 I had a hard time getting any lower than 1.263" (COL) without crushing an XTP nose. That's okay though since Glock magazines handle 1.263". I've been meaning to try it while seating and crimping separately, just haven't got that far yet.
[/quote]
I shot some loads this weekend with IMR 800X powder.
Gun is the Kimber Target II-5" barrel. Brass is Starline. Primers - WLP, ALL loads were weighed out ona a digital RCBS scale.
Kimber 5" barrel
Nosler 135gr HP - OAL 1.245"
9.5gr =1362
10.0gr =1389
10.5gr =1495
Nosler 150gr HP - OAL 1.245"
9.0gr =1267
9.5gr =1327
10.0gr=1420
Nolser 180gr HP- OAL 1.250"
8.0gr =1120
8.5gr =1182
9.0gr =1259
Nolser 200gr HP - OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1168
8.5gr =1235 *Corrected
9.0gr =1270
Hornady 200 XTP- OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1103
8.0gr =1164
8.5gr =1224
Cast 215gr WFNGC- OAL 1.248"
7.0gr =1041
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1166
Cast 230gr LFNGC- OAL 1.248"
7.0gr =1082
7.5gr =1108
I will go up on some loads next weekend. Nosler 135 gr , 150gr ,180gr , 200 gr, Cast 215gr.
Sean
Nolser 200gr HP - OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1168
8.5gr =1270
Hornady 200 XTP- OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1103
8.0gr =1164
8.5gr =1224
Never realized yet that the Nosler looks to have a possible anti-frictional advantage over the Hornady offering.
Are the above numbers averages, or did you limit them to a single round per recipe?
I'll definitely be looking forward to the results of the next batch.
Well done sir, and thanks for sharing! 8)
3 shot average.
I was a little suprised by the difference in velocity.
Sean
Quote from: REDLINE on June 17 2013 11:52:16 AM MDT
Nolser 200gr HP - OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1168
8.5gr =1235 *Corrected
Hornady 200 XTP- OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1103
8.0gr =1164
8.5gr =1224
Never realized yet that the Nosler looks to have a possible anti-frictional advantage over the Hornady offering.
Are the above numbers averages, or did you limit them to a single round per recipe?
I'll definitely be looking forward to the results of the next batch.
Well done sir, and thanks for sharing! 8)
Me too. I'll be curious to see if it continues (I expect it will), and to what extent. I'm almost thinking as pressures rise further the differences may grow further too. I have no clue though. I am excited to see the next batch of numbers. Happy to see you were doing 3 shot groups of each, making me feel better that the results are relatively consistent.
**Updated
I shot some loads this weekend with IMR 800X powder.
Gun is the Kimber Target II-5" barrel. Brass is Starline. Primers - WLP, ALL loads were weighed out on a digital RCBS scale.
Kimber 5" barrel
Nosler 135gr HP - OAL 1.245"
9.5gr =1362
10.0gr =1389
10.5gr =1495
11.0gr =1539
11.3gr =1567 .I am not going to approach the 11.8gr load from UW
Nosler 150gr HP - OAL 1.245"
9.0gr =1267
9.5gr =1327
10.0gr=1420
10.3gr=1434
10.6gr=1467
Nolser 180gr HP- OAL 1.250"
8.0gr =1120
8.5gr =1182
9.0gr =1256
9.3gr =1331
Nolser 200gr HP - OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1168
8.5gr =1235 *Corrected
9.0gr =1270
Hornady 200 XTP- OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1103
8.0gr =1164
8.5gr =1224
8.8gr =1268
Cast 215gr WFNGC- OAL 1.248"
7.0gr =1041
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1166
8.4gr =1196
Cast 230gr LFNGC- OAL 1.248"
7.0gr =1082
7.5gr =1108
Sean
[/quote]
Thanks for you chrony reports, I too am taken back by the higher numbers using less powder. Your batch of powder maybe a faster burning lot or produces higher gas volumes... ??? I would also bet that the chamber of your Kimber II is quite a good fit...Have you measured your brass as fired in the chambers? I suspect the brass to be 0.4260"-0.4280". 8)
Sean writes
QuoteNever realized yet that the Nosler looks to have a possible anti-frictional advantage over the Hornady offering.
Most of the Nosler bullets I have measure were slightly smaller in diameter as compared to the Hornady products, thus less friction. Maybe slightly less accurate as well. Examples have shown them to be 0.3995" for the 10mm/40Cal in some of the pulldowns.
Good question , I will measure a few .
Sean
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 24 2013 08:51:30 AM MDT
Thanks for you chrony reports, I too am taken back by the higher numbers using less powder. Your batch of powder maybe a faster burning lot or produces higher gas volumes... ??? I would also bet that the chamber of your Kimber II is quite a good fit...Have you measured your brass as fired in the chambers? I suspect the brass to be 0.4260"-0.4280". 8)
Now looking at your latest test numbers I thinking there isn't a velocity/pressure difference between the 200 grain Hornady and Nolser bullet loads. Sure, minor differences can be seen, but now those differences go both ways. Good stuff, thanks for sharing. Will there be a next batch?
BTW, at 10.6gr you've got that 150 Nosler moving along quite nicely. The 9.3gr for the 180 Nosler matches the Buffalo Bore 180gr load perfectly.
Quote from: 475/480 on June 17 2013 12:07:52 PM MDT
3 shot average.
I was a little suprised by the difference in velocity.
Sean
Quote from: REDLINE on June 17 2013 11:52:16 AM MDT
Nolser 200gr HP - OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1132
8.0gr =1168
8.5gr =1235 *Corrected
Hornady 200 XTP- OAL 1.260"
7.5gr =1103
8.0gr =1164
8.5gr =1224
Never realized yet that the Nosler looks to have a possible anti-frictional advantage over the Hornady offering.
Are the above numbers averages, or did you limit them to a single round per recipe?
I'll definitely be looking forward to the results of the next batch.
Well done sir, and thanks for sharing! 8)
I will run a few thru my STI 10MM - 6" barrel.
Sean
Quote from: REDLINE on June 24 2013 01:30:25 PM MDT
Now looking at your latest test numbers I thinking there isn't a velocity/pressure difference between the 200 grain Hornady and Nolser bullet loads. Sure, minor differences can be seen, but now those differences go both ways. Good stuff, thanks for sharing. Will there be a next batch?
That will be cool to compare.
I thought these were going to be Speer 165gr GD but NO, kinda suggests I have too many orders coming ???
I will increase the loads a little this weekend,probably all powders except the AA9 loads.
Bullets - Sierra 165gr HP's.
I shot these in my STI 10MM -6" bll and G20SF -4.6" bll
STI 10 MM , 6"*****************************
Primer , WLP : OAL 1.260"
Powder:
AA7-12.5gr =1351
AA7-13.0gr =1434
AA7-13.5gr =1463
Blue Dot -12.0gr = 1346
Blue Dot -12.5gr = 1400
Blue Dot -13.0gr = 1466
800X -8.5gr = 1264
800X -9.0gr = 1342
800X -9.5gr = 1372
AA9 -15.0gr = 1368
AA9 -15.5gr = 1378
AA9 -16.0gr = 1421
LongShot -8.0gr = 1251
LongShot -9.0gr = 1386
LongShot -10.0gr = 1437
Glock G20SF - 4.6"**********************************
AA7 -12.5gr = 1255
AA7 -13.0gr = 1284
AA7 -13.5gr = 1324
Blue Dot -12.0gr = 1215
Blue Dot -12.5gr = 1288
Blue Dot -13.0gr = 1315
800X -8.5gr = 1160
800X -9.0gr = 1180
800X -9.5gr = 1290
AA9 -15.0gr = 1235
AA9 -15.5gr = 1232
AA9 -16.0gr = 1250
LongShot -8.0gr = 1163
LongShot -9.0gr = 1260
LongShot -10.0gr = 1309
Sean
Very nice comparisons! 8)
Quote from: 475/480 on July 05 2013 07:00:50 AM MDTI will increase the loads a little this weekend,probably all powders except the AA9 loads.
Bullets - Sierra 165gr HP's.
STI 10 MM , 6"*****************************
Primer , WLP : OAL 1.260"
Powder:
AA9 -15.0gr = 1368
AA9 -15.5gr = 1378
AA9 -16.0gr = 1421
Glock G20SF - 4.6"**********************************
AA9 -15.0gr = 1235
AA9 -15.5gr = 1232
AA9 -16.0gr = 1250
Sean
Interesting dead zone with 15-15.5 grains of #9. Then at 16.0gr it wakes up nicely.
Do you recall if those were beginning to be compressed yet? If so, would you call the compression light, moderate, heavy, maxed out? If powder can still fit, it might be interesting to see the results of 16.5gr.
Compression is fairly heavy.
Sean
Quote from: REDLINE on July 05 2013 12:59:39 PM MDT
Quote from: 475/480 on July 05 2013 07:00:50 AM MDTI will increase the loads a little this weekend,probably all powders except the AA9 loads.
Bullets - Sierra 165gr HP's.
STI 10 MM , 6"*****************************
Primer , WLP : OAL 1.260"
Powder:
AA9 -15.0gr = 1368
AA9 -15.5gr = 1378
AA9 -16.0gr = 1421
Glock G20SF - 4.6"**********************************
AA9 -15.0gr = 1235
AA9 -15.5gr = 1232
AA9 -16.0gr = 1250
Sean
Interesting dead zone with 15-15.5 grains of #9. Then at 16.0gr it wakes up nicely.
Do you recall if those were beginning to be compressed yet? If so, would you call the compression light, moderate, heavy, maxed out? If powder can still fit, it might be interesting to see the results of 16.5gr.
I thought these were going to be Speer 165gr GS but NO, kinda suggests I have too many orders coming ???
I will increase the loads a little this weekend,probably all powders except the AA9 loads.
Bullets - Sierra 165gr HP's.
I shot these in my STI 10MM -6" bll and G20SF -4.6" bll
STI 10 MM , 6"*****************************
Primer , WLP : OAL 1.260"
Powder:
AA7-12.5gr =1351
AA7-13.0gr =1434
AA7-13.5gr =1463
AA7-14.0gr =1519 . I had some 14.5gr loaded but stopped at this point.
Blue Dot -12.0gr = 1346
Blue Dot -12.5gr = 1400
Blue Dot -13.0gr = 1466
Blue Dot -13.5gr = 1481
Blue Dot -14.0gr = 1541
800X -8.5gr = 1264
800X -9.0gr = 1342
800X -9.5gr = 1372
800X -10.0gr =1465
800X -10.3gr =1494
AA9 -15.0gr = 1368
AA9 -15.5gr = 1378
AA9 -16.0gr = 1421
LongShot -8.0gr = 1251
LongShot -9.0gr = 1386
LongShot -10.0gr = 1437
LongShot -10.5gr = 1476
LongShot -10.8gr = 1490
Glock G20SF - 4.6"**********************************
AA7 -12.5gr = 1255
AA7 -13.0gr = 1284
AA7 -13.5gr = 1324
AA7 -14.0gr = 1414
AA7 -14.5gr = 1432
Blue Dot -12.0gr = 1215
Blue Dot -12.5gr = 1288
Blue Dot -13.0gr = 1315
Blue Dot -13.5gr = 1364
Blue Dot -14.0gr = 1381
800X -8.5gr = 1160
800X -9.0gr = 1180
800X -9.5gr = 1290
800X -10.0gr=1343
800X -10.3gr =1369
AA9 -15.0gr = 1235
AA9 -15.5gr = 1232
AA9 -16.0gr = 1250
LongShot -8.0gr = 1163
LongShot -9.0gr = 1260
LongShot -10.0gr = 1309
LongShot -10.5gr =1351
LongShot -10.8gr = 1391
Sean
Quote from: 475/480 on July 08 2013 12:20:20 PM MDT
Compression is fairly heavy.
No doubt the shorter Gold Dot 165gr counterpart would help in continuing further with a heavier powder charge.
First, not only are the general workups awesome to see, but even more so from 2 different barrel lengths. TYVM for sharing the data! 8)
I was studying the numbers toward which powders work best for more velocity from a 6" barrel over a 4.6". Following I've listed the additional velocity gained from the 6" for the loads listed.
AA7 12.5gr = 96 FPS
AA7 14.0gr = 105 FPS
BD 12.0gr = 131 FPS
BD 14.0gr = 160 FPS
800X 8.5gr = 104 FPS
800X 10.3gr = 125 FPS
AA9 15.0gr = 133 FPS
AA9 16.0gr = 171 FPS
LS 8.0gr = 88 FPS
LS 10.8gr = 99 FPS
I'll further be curious to see the same criteria for your next batch The only other two powders I'ld like to see the same type workups on (in this specific 165gr bullet weight) are Ramshot Silhouette and VihtaVuori 3N38. If I ever get to buy bullets again I may find out for myself. :)
I got to the range this weekend and shot some 200 gr GDHP's.I started fairly low and am working up .
Gun was the G20SF with 4.6" bll and a couple loads in the RIA 5" bll.
Speer 200 gr GDHP , Primer WLP, cases Starline. OAL 1.260"
Gun G20SF*******
Powder:
800X-
8.0gr =1067
8.5gr =1100
8.8gr
9.3gr
Blue Dot-
10.0gr =1047
10.5gr =1084
10.8gr
11.3gr
AA7 -
11.0gr =1120
11.5gr =1182
12.0gr =1227
LongShot -
7.5gr =1060
8.0gr =1113
8.5gr =1149
8.8gr
9.3gr
AA9-
12.5gr =1044
13.0gr =1083
13.5gr =1114
RIA -5" barrel******************
LongShot-
8.0gr =1151
AA9-
13.0gr =1156
13.5gr =1193
Next weekend I will shoot the other loads shown above.
Sean
Thanks for the range report, seeing the AA numbers leads me to believe the other higher numbers will work as well if pressure signs were acceptable. 8)
I shot a few last weekend but it was almost dark and I was in a hurry so I didn't get to test all the loads I had worked up (I worked up lots of AA#9, 800x, and Longshot loads) and and saved most for another day (chrono started having problems due to lighting).
G20 - 4.6" Stock Bbl.
Primer: CCI-300
COAL: 1.255"
800x
9.0 - 1150
(have worked up to 9.4 but will shoot later)
Longshot
8.6 - 1115
(have worked up to 9.0 but will shoot later)
AA#9
12.5 - 1150
(have worked up to 13.0 but will shoot later, also 12.5 w/ CCI-350)
No flattened primers or pressure signs.
I shot one into some 2-liter soda bottles out of the 6" which I'm guessing was 1200+ fps with the 12.5 AA#9 load... it was getting dark and I lost the bullet! It went through three bottles and nicked and bounced off the fourth bottle, there were absolutely no fragments in the jugs so I know it held together but it it was dark and I was in a hurry and couldn't find it in the weeds. :(
11.3 Grains of blue dot in 200 Grain bullets using GDHP seems a little high I wonder what the pressure are? I like to try that to but I think I let you try it first you should hit 1300 fps I dont think the bullet will stay together, Hell I give it a try too once I get set up.
I got to the range this weekend and shot some 200 gr GDHP's.I started fairly low and am working up .
Gun was the G20SF with 4.6" bll and a couple loads in the RIA 5" bll.
Speer 200 gr GDHP , Primer WLP, cases Starline. OAL 1.260"
Gun G20SF*******
Powder:
800X-
8.0gr =1067
8.5gr =1100
8.8gr =1130
9.3gr =1145
Blue Dot-
10.0gr =1047
10.5gr =1084
10.8gr =1093
11.3gr =1133
AA7 -
11.0gr =1120
11.5gr =1182
11.8gr =1201
12.0gr =1227
12.3gr =1271
LongShot -
7.5gr =1060
8.0gr =1104
8.5gr =1118
8.8gr =1128
9.3gr =1177
AA9-
12.5gr =1044
13.0gr =1083
13.5gr =1114
RIA -5" barrel******************
800X -
8.8gr =1217
9.3gr =1274
Blue Dot -
10.8gr =1168
11.3gr =1222
LongShot-
8.0gr =1151
AA9-
13.0gr =1156
13.5gr =1193
13.8gr =1216
I will try and get some loads shot into wetpack next weekend but it could take 2 weekends to get it done.
Sean
Sean, Thanks for the range report, very interesting numbers. 8)
Did you get a chance to look over the brass casings?
:-[ No I didn't . I keep forgetting to do that . I will try this weekend to run some thru the Kimber Target II and take measurements.
Sean
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 30 2013 08:22:47 AM MDT
Sean, Thanks for the range report, very interesting numbers. 8)
Did you get a chance to look over the brass casings?
Hey Guys,
A general question.... Is there concern or special precautions loading plated bullets for G20? Issues leading the polygonal barrel?
Thanks!
CPHills
Keep the velocity on plated bullets at 1300 fps or less.
Glocks have some issues with lead bullets , I just make sure to clean the barrel after every shooting session when shooting lead in my G20 SF.
Sean
Quote from: cphills on March 03 2014 02:02:06 PM MST
Hey Guys,
A general question.... Is there concern or special precautions loading plated bullets for G20? Issues leading the polygonal barrel?
Thanks!
CPHills
Quote from: cphills on March 03 2014 02:02:06 PM MST
Hey Guys,
A general question.... Is there concern or special precautions loading plated bullets for G20? Issues leading the polygonal barrel?
Thanks!
CPHills
The things to be concerned with the plated bullets is some have very thin plating, if damaged it can be spun of with bullet rotation. Things that can damage the plating are being nicked or shaved during the loading process. By that I mean the cases have to have enough case mouth flaring, to let the bullet slide inside and not scrape off or snag the plating. With all the semiauto cartridges it is best to fully seat your bullets without any crimp being applied while the bullet is seated...with the bullet moving downward and if the case wall is being squeezed against that moving bullet it can cause issues like damage to the bullet plating or in with cast bullets, sometimes bullet materials can even roll up inside the case or on the edge of the case mouth to cause headspacing issues. Also, as the casing snags the bullet, it can cause the casing to buckle slightly making for a loose bullet tension.
Now all that being said, properly loaded rounds keeping velocities at reasonable levels for the quality plated bullets are very useable from any rifling, including the Glock's poly rifling. :D
Yep, and I've pushed 180gr Berry's and Rainier's up to 1250+ fps and kept accuracy .... its all about a light crimp....
Quote from: 475/480 on June 25 2012 11:48:36 AM MDT
More loads added***6-25-12
This will be an ongoing process**
I'm taking it you don't have a standard 5" barrel gun here. Bummer, I want to know the difference between my 5" 1911 and my 6" long slide 1911.
Quote from: cphills on March 03 2014 02:02:06 PM MST
Hey Guys,
A general question.... Is there concern or special precautions loading plated bullets for G20? Issues leading the polygonal barrel?
Just recently started running Xtreme 180s HPCB ( heavy plated concave base ) in a stock G20. After 200 rounds there was no problems at all, seemed like shooting a fmj. Good price and accurate, oal lenght of bullet shorter than remington fmj.
Yes ,
There is data for the RIA 5" gun and some data for a Kimber 5" . As a general rule the difference between 5 and 6" barrel is 40-55 fps.
Sean
Quote from: gandog56 on August 19 2014 06:59:23 AM MDT
Quote from: 475/480 on June 25 2012 11:48:36 AM MDT
More loads added***6-25-12
This will be an ongoing process**
I'm taking it you don't have a standard 5" barrel gun here. Bummer, I want to know the difference between my 5" 1911 and my 6" long slide 1911.
Has anybody tried using 40cal/10mm 180gr RNFP pulled bullets.These bullets have been commercially pulled by an ammunition dismantler to reload?
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Quote from: Rammann on October 02 2014 02:58:16 AM MDT
Has anybody tried using 40cal/10mm 180gr RNFP pulled bullets.snip
Pulled bullets I've used work just fine... you'll usu find a pull mark/ring near the top of the bullet, those I've seen had slight mark but its a non-problem.
I have also used the Pulled bullets from Rocky Mountain Reloading. They get some good quality premium bullets at times.
In my opinion, most of these figures come from ballistic calculations and not actual firing a gun or bullets from a gun.
Make believe pressure calculations,barf, MUZZLE BLaST-VELOCITY FROM MUZZLE no way- MARCH 17,2016.
slicelee please understand, 475/480 made the original postings here and were tested from the Guns: Caspian 6" Custom , STI Perfect 10 , G20SF w/extra LWD 5.47" barrel. So his velocities are as good as his Chronograph readings...
He also has the Quickloads Program and has taken the time to run the info across the QL program to add the estimated pressure values in another post. The values for small cartridges can be slightly off, but short of having a true pressure barrel to test with it, the values are there for study purposes.
As The Shadow has stated ALL of the velocities on my posts were fired thru my guns.
Sean
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 02 2014 01:24:58 PM MDT
I have also used the Pulled bullets from Rocky Mountain Reloading. They get some good quality premium bullets at times.
How does their price stand compared to my Precision Bullets 185 grain coated RNF's I get for $90 shipped per 1000?
Quote from: gandog56 on December 27 2016 03:03:11 PM MST
How does their price stand compared to my Precision Bullets 185 grain coated RNF's I get for $90 shipped per 1000?
prices aren't my reason for buying from them, but the reason is you can get pulled heads that are hard to find like Gold Dots, Hydra shok, etc
Does anyone know which powders Doubletap Ammo uses to achieve their velocity
DT uses LongShot mostly...
Thanks. I left the most important info out of my question. I use the 135gr for carry and the 200gr hardcast will be used for hunting this year.
Gents,
Thanks for your replies about loading plated bullets. The article in Blue press a couple issues back was also useful. I have been crimping way too much which resulted in the most inaccurate loads I have ever produced. I had completely given up on plated but maybe it's worth another look.
Gary
Great information reloading the 10 MM. I have 10, 10MM pistol to feed.
Hey Guys,
What's your experience/opinion on the polymer coated bullets that seem to have become available in the last few months. Better than plated for handloads? Accuracy comparisons?
Like lead, poly coated bullets will reach max velocity (pressure) using less powder than comparable jacketed/plated bullets. This is because lead or lead/poly bullets will seal the bore better resulting in less parasitic pressure loss.
I've been powder coating my .357 sig, .40/10mm and .45 bullets for nearly a year now. I have not shot a lot due (maybe 100-150 rds per week) conserving components with COVID supply induced issues and I have not chronographed them. But, those I've shot using mid to upper mid level load data for jacketed bullets I've not seen any signs of pressure in my oft reloaded cases outside of normal splitting attrition from age.
The bore and guns stay much cleaner than when I used to use waxy (VERY smoky) lube, and there's no copper fouling in the bore to deal with either. Smoke on the range is nearly gone and what's there is 100% due to powder burning. Also the bad taste in my mouth from lube is gone.
As far as comparing plated / jacketed / coated accuracy, I really can't say, nor do I care. I don't "target" shoot, I generally train and shoot the majority of my range time at under 30 feet, from a holster and left ventricle / right ventricle is what I easily get with my PC'd bullets.
Back in the day we used to have a 10 bowling pin match at 75 feet, if I were to do any of that type of shooting again, I'd pay more attention to accuracy.
As it is, I can't see myself buying TMJ/plated or FMJ bullets ever again. With two 20 pound furnaces, four 6 cavity molds, and three ovens I can make a whole lot of bullets in a few hours.