I saw in some SHOT Show announcements that Winchester is offering new 10mm ammo intended for personal defense (not the old Silvertip). The marketing materials say it's a 180 grain bonded bullet at 1240 fps. Very interesting.
https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Handgun/Defender/S10MMPDB
Looks like it will be a great bullet and great performance as well. They didn't mention the test barrel length but it would likely be from a 5" test barrel.
Saw that, very cool, it has never been a better time to be a 10mm fan.
The Winchester bonded 9mm and .45acp are awesome SD rounds. The same type bullet at an honest 1200fps would be more awesome-er. 8)
They'll be $1.50/round but well worth it.
Sounds like it'll be their PDX1 or Ranger Bonded lines.
Looks like a not black talon black talon
The Ranger and PDX1 lines were derived from the Black Talon; Basically it was a Black Talon that was not black and had a bonded core. This seems to be the evolution of the line.
It would be nice if they decided to sell them as reloading components. Not much available from Winchester for the 10mm fans in that area.
Now we're talkin!
It's great that all these companies are stepping up. Problem is Underwood is cheaper. You can get 180gr Gold Dots @ 1300 for $18.50 +$7 flat rate shipping. My LGS isnt any better, they want $30 for a box of the Speer 200 GD'S
Quote from: Overkill338 on January 25 2019 05:30:07 AM MST
It's great that all these companies are stepping up. Problem is Underwood is cheaper. You can get 180gr Gold Dots @ 1300 for $18.50 +$7 flat rate shipping. My LGS isnt any better, they want $30 for a box of the Speer 200 GD'S
Agree with you on this one for sure. Course we're just seeing these new products and their MSRP which means absolutely nothing, unless you want to be the first to run out and buy the latest gee wiz offering. We'll have to wait for the distribution channels to flush out a bit then we'll see what the market price will be. Hopefully we'll have a better sense of actual performance by then.
Think Underwood will be alright.
Course wasn't so long ago Underwood sold 50 count of those 180gr Gold Dots & 200gr XTP in the mid $20 range plus shipping. Wouldn't mind seeing those days again but not likely to!
I would love to see Underwood sell in 50/ct boxes.
I like the bonded bullet. Let's hope they offer this in the Ranger line as well.
Unfortunately, when I retire at the end of the year I won't be permitted to carry hollowpoints anymore in this state.
Looks like WW is also offering a fmj practice round at 1080:
https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Handgun/USA/USA10MM
Winchester must have their head in the ground :o
Paltry ballistics... won't sell many!
Quote from: Intercooler on January 26 2019 02:51:40 PM MST
Winchester must have their head in the ground :o
Paltry ballistics... won't sell many!
I thought the same. At least the JHP is decent velocity-wise.
Quote from: tcecil88 on January 25 2019 03:20:48 PM MST
I would love to see Underwood sell in 50/ct boxes.
The explanation I got from Underwood was, some people want just enough ammo to fill up a magazine, and dont have $40-$50 to spend on a box of ammo. They wont ever have the 50 rd boxes again, because they'd have to double their warehouse size.
Quote from: Overkill338 on February 01 2019 03:46:29 PM MST
The explanation I got from Underwood was, some people want just enough ammo to fill up a magazine, and dont have $40-$50 to spend on a box of ammo. They wont ever have the 50 rd boxes again, because they'd have to double their warehouse size.
There is the exact problem Overkill.... Underwood used to sell the 50 round boxes for high $20's / low $30's... Similar to their target ammo line now. It all used to run in and around that range. We aren't talking 10 years ago. No personal offence to whomever answered the phone or e-mail at Underwood but their response to you was pretty patronizing or at least intentionally ignorant.
Those 50 round boxes built that business (particularly in 10mm but other pistol calibers as well).
Quote from: Rojo27 on February 01 2019 06:46:59 PM MST
Quote from: Overkill338 on February 01 2019 03:46:29 PM MST
The explanation I got from Underwood was, some people want just enough ammo to fill up a magazine, and dont have $40-$50 to spend on a box of ammo. They wont ever have the 50 rd boxes again, because they'd have to double their warehouse size.
There is the exact problem Overkill.... Underwood used to sell the 50 round boxes for high $20's / low $30's... Similar to their target ammo line now. It all used to run in and around that range. We aren't talking 10 years ago. No personal offence to whomever answered the phone or e-mail at Underwood but their response to you was pretty patronizing or at least intentionally ignorant.
Those 50 round boxes built that business (particularly in 10mm but other pistol calibers as well).
I'm trying to find the email, but I correspond with Justin, A LOT, so this may take awhile.
Quote from: Overkill338 on February 01 2019 07:07:25 PM MST
I'm trying to find the email, but I correspond with Justin, A LOT, so this may take awhile.
Oh, I'm definitely not doubting the content of your communication, didn't mean to give impression that I did. I would however, challenge the foolish notion that consumers only want enough ammo to "fill a magazine".... Now the $50 to $60 a box of ammo bs was correct in so much as Underwood customer base are PEOPLE who generally won't spend $1.00 per cartridge + delivery on warm to hot decent jhps.... For that they got Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, Cabellas, Speer, Federal, etc.
Started buying from Underwood in 2011 when they were up and coming enterprise offering excellent value proposition combination of product, quality & price vs competition and remained so for years. Therefore I purchased thousands of rounds with various projectiles and calibers over the years from them.
I get the retail $1.00 per round economics of individual cnc machined copper bullets but not a traditional jhp.
With the 10mm coming back in a big way to the degree that the majors Hornady, Federal, Speer and others offering more attractive performing products the game is evolving. The gap between a box of 20 Hornady 180gr XTP for $15 @ 1275fps and box of 20 Underwood 180gr XTP for $20 @ 1300fps isn't one that's particularly favorable to Underwood IMO.
Years ago I was talking to the owner of Pro Load and asked him why be switched from 50 round boxes to 20. He said because not only was he making more per round but selling significantly more.
Quote from: Rojo27 on February 02 2019 07:06:25 AM MST
Quote from: Overkill338 on February 01 2019 07:07:25 PM MST
I'm trying to find the email, but I correspond with Justin, A LOT, so this may take awhile.
Oh, I'm definitely not doubting the content of your communication, didn't mean to give impression that I did. I would however, challenge the foolish notion that consumers only want enough ammo to "fill a magazine".... Now the &40 or $50 a box of ammo was correct in so much as Underwood customer base are PEOPLE who generally won't spend $1.00 per cartridge + delivery for warm to hot decent jhps.... For that they got Buffalo Bore, DoubleTap, Cabellas, Speer, Federal, etc.
Started buying from Underwood in 2011 when they were up and coming enterprise offering excellent value proposition combination of product, quality & price vs competition for years. Therefore I purchased thousands and thousands of rounds with various projectiles and calibers over the years.
I get the retail $1.00 per round economics of individual cnc machined copper bullets but not a decent traditional jhp.
With the 10mm coming back in a big way to the degree that the majors Hornady, Federal, Speer and others offering more attractive performing products the game is evolving. The gap between a box of 20 Hornady 180gr XTP for $15 @ 1275fps and box of 20 Underwood 180gr XTP for $20 @ 1300fps isn't one that particularly favorable to Underwood IMO.
I didnt mean to sound like I was being argumentative. I'm just looking for it so I can show their exact reply. I just summed it up. But, that's all it boils down to, he said most people just want enough to fill a magazine. Me personally, for my 29, I want enough to fill the two ten round mags, and three 15 round mags.
Rojo, I found it.
Quote from: UnderwoodOffering both 20s and 50s would be terrible for inventory, we'd nearly have to double our warehouse racking to house everything. Maybe in the future.
The 20s and 50s debate is never ending. This decision is incredibly helpful to the mass majority of shooters, many just simply can't afford to pay or don't want to pay $40-60 for a 50 round box of ammo at a time, the $15-30 price range is more friendly to the general customer who wants to try a few different loads and eventually settle on a carry ammo that they can purchase in larger quantities when the decision is made. There's pros and cons to everything, but at least we did not boost prices when we offered the 20 count option over the 50.
They have steadily been increasing their prices. My friend and shooting buddy now refers to them as "Overwood." Over priced wood.
They are losing their original customer base of people who wanted full power loads at a reasonable price.
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 02 2019 12:01:21 PM MST
They have steadily been increasing their prices. My friend and shooting buddy now refers to them as "Overwood." Over priced wood.
They are losing their original customer base of people who wanted full power loads at a reasonable price.
I will pass that along.
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 02 2019 12:01:21 PM MST
They have steadily been increasing their prices. My friend and shooting buddy now refers to them as "Overwood." Over priced wood.
They are losing their original customer base of people who wanted full power loads at a reasonable price.
This and the their inventory answer is a bit ridiculous. Inventory - OK maybe too many SKU's can be a problem, but giving your customer what he/she wants and making reasonable money is never a problem.