G31 (.357 Sig) KB'd with a KKM barrel. Chamber end opened up. Shooter OK, Underwood ammo mfg. covering the costs of replacing the firearm.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474747 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474747)
I think this one might be setback related....
Modified to add the link for the pull-down of the ammo from the box that was used...
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/msg12302/#msg12302 (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/msg12302/#msg12302)
Darn shame all the way around. When the same platform gets these about every week it's hard to not say these things are related.
I'm not convinced striker fires are good for high pressure ammo. My XD has digested the screaming Underwood 9mm round without issues but others have seen problems in Glocks. Maybe it was a matter of time for me with the Springfield platform? Seems the old unsupported stock Glock barrels were an issue back when and they fixed it (for the most part). Then people are swapping to aftermarket barrels now and running into more issues. I don't know what to make of it but plan on getting real comfortable with shooting all my pistols with the Hatch Kevlar gloves I got for Christmas (highly suggest them!).
Shadow, you might wanna stongly encourage those guys to get into 9X25. Then they can pursue laser velocities with a little more margine for safety.
As someone mentioned there what is the draw to the Sig round? I only see 125gr listed so why wouldn't you just do a 10mm?
Quote from: Intercooler on March 03 2013 08:40:05 AM MST
Darn shame all the way around. When the same platform gets these about every week it's hard to not say these things are related.
I'm not convinced striker fires are good for high pressure ammo. My XD has digested the screaming Underwood 9mm round without issues but others have seen problems in Glocks. Maybe it was a matter of time for me with the Springfield platform? Seems the old unsupported stock Glock barrels were an issue back when and they fixed it (for the most part). Then people are swapping to aftermarket barrels now and running into more issues. I don't know what to make of it but plan on getting real comfortable with shooting all my pistols with the Hatch Kevlar gloves I got for Christmas (highly suggest them!).
ICooler, do you have a link to those gloves?
Edit: I found them for $26.99 and $51.99. I don't know the difference, if any.
These are what I have and they fit like batting gloves but better. They breathe and feel like a second skin! No complaints here with quality, fit or function in my two times out with them and they aren't broken in yet.
http://www.amazon.com/Hatch-SGK100FR-Street-Kevlar-XX-Large/dp/B003X3NCTW/ref=sr_1_6?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1362329205&sr=1-6&keywords=hatch+kevlar+gloves
While I think this one may be related to possible setback with a round that is already in the upper pressure levels, I have been reading where some guys are seeing their factory and aftermarket captive RSA's, that drop out with takedown. This issue sort of bothers me, not having the pre-loading of the spring tension to maintain lockup, although I could be wrong... ???
The 40S&W and 357Sig guns being the thinner/smaller platform also means thinner/smaller dimensions, i.e. thinner barrel & chambers. There are many things to consider...
The reason I actually purchased the 357Sig barrel was it was looking like a popular round, and I was getting some brass for it, to have another option in my arsenal. However the 9x25Dillon option was just to be different and unique. 8)
Not like a 22lb 1006 spring/rod. I have a nice dent in my door-frame where I let mine pop out one time. When the slide comes off now it gets pointed in a downward direction!
Quote from: Intercooler on March 03 2013 09:54:57 AM MST
Not like a 22lb 1006 spring/rod. I have a nice dent in my door-frame where I let mine pop out one time. When the slide comes off now it gets pointed in a downward direction!
You got that right!
Can't say I'm surprised. After already noting Underwood's sloppy load practice in 10mm, I don't know why the same manufactuer's 357SIG loads would be any different. And certainly, setback could have added an extra measure of high pressure, but no one knows if setback was involved or not. Setback may not have been any of the issue, or it could have been the whole issue. We simply don't know the cause beyond speculation. I suspect in this specific incident we never will.
No question though, somewhere in mix was an issue.
Was it ever determined Kevin's loading varied more than acceptable level? I thought what we got for data showed it was within an acceptable tolerance?
It for sure can't equal Precision One's almost zero powder loading :o Just the one being found is enough to tell me never buy it again! GAS Ammo is off the buy list too because data shows they may not even know what's on their ammo for bullets :o :o
What other platform in .357 Sig has had Kaboom issues? I looked up the 229 and only found one which had a sketchy set of events. What I saw was a piece of brass way past the number of times it should have been reloaded. Another common thing it seems the shooter was doing was rapid-fire. I'm not a huge fan of that and never just cycle mine as fast as I can.
PBR offers some .357 Sig and looks like a Zero HP. Wonder what the powder is:
https://www.pbrammo.com/premium-line-357sig-125gr-jhp
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 03 2013 09:52:15 AM MST
While I think this one may be related to possible setback with a round that is already in the upper pressure levels, I have been reading where some guys are seeing their factory and aftermarket captive RSA's, that drop out with takedown. This issue sort of bothers me, not having the pre-loading of the spring tension to maintain lockup, although I could be wrong... ???
Shadow, that is completely normal for a Glock, and does not indicate that there's not spring preload in lockup. The rear end of the guide rod is only retained by the barrel during assembly; once it's together the guide rod is retained by the frame, not the barrel. It won't always grab that little lip on the barrel again during disassembly, but that doesn't indicate a problem.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 03 2013 09:21:43 AM MST
As someone mentioned there what is the draw to the Sig round? I only see 125gr listed so why wouldn't you just do a 10mm?
For the same reasons the 40 cal was developed......lighter, smaller frame handgun, easier for some to shoot. At 125 gr it compares to 357 Mag velocities of the same weight bullet. Law enforcement groups using it have given favorable reports supposedly. Good penetration car doors etc, threat stopping ability and flat shooting. Interesting round, to me, I've got a M&P in 357 SIG.
Just in disections of Underwood's 10mm 135gr Nolser load we've seen the powder charge weight range of 800-X from 11.4 grains to 11.8 grains (after The_Shadow fired the 11.8gr load the primer fell right out of the case and the brass was smilied). In those same disected loads we've seen cartridge overall length range from 1.249" to 1.252".
That's a range of .5 grains of powder and .004" of COL.
When already loading to a target pressure of 37,000 PSI, my opinion is that the range we've seen is not acceptable. And we only disected a few rounds. More rounds disected would probably add to the range we already know is possible. Then there's the other group of threads where other's have pointed out deep smilies they've got with Underwood 10mm ammo that was considered by Underwood to be completely safe in the firearms they shot them from. Then there's UW 10mm 200gr XTP loads hitting 1300fps from ~4.5" barrels that shouldn't be happening at all. And there's at least the one recent KB mentioned earlier with an UW 357 SIG load.
Then there are other tear downs like I did showing the following variances;
UW 10mm 155gr Gold Dot = 1.249"-1.254", 10.5-10.7 grains
UW 10mm 180gr Gold Dot = 1.249"-1.262", 9.6-9.7 grains
UW 10mm 180gr XTP = 1.250"-1.252", 9.4-9.6 grains
UW 10mm 200gr XTP = 1.253"-1.258", 9.2-9.4 grains
( http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/finally-5-underwood-10mm-ammo-disections/100/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/finally-5-underwood-10mm-ammo-disections/100/) )
And this is just what I can think of off the top of my head. All in all you have to remember, we aren't talking about variances with midrange loads. We are talking about variances with top end loads. It makes a difference. Either way IMO the tolerance ranges leaving the UW factory are unacceptable. At least one KB, numberous heavy smilies, at least one primer falling out, and velocitites too high for SAAMI spec pressures prove it. And this is limited to what I can remember off the top of my head that we've simply seen and heard. What haven't we heard or seen?
Maybe it's simply that our opinions vary on what's safe and what isn't.
I would have to see what the reloaders like Shadow think about the powder charges. I know 800X is big flake and might be 1-2 flakes make an impact.
When talking COL that's another thing I don't know about. What's acceptable and where would you see a red flag on it?
I think Redline may have hit the nail on the head. We spoke about pushing the load limits a few months ago right here on this forum.
I am sorry to say, I think it was only a matter of time before this happened.
I certainly hope Kevin reevaluates. He seems to be a good sort.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 03 2013 09:50:58 AM MST
These are what I have and they fit like batting gloves but better. They breathe and feel like a second skin! No complaints here with quality, fit or function in my two times out with them and they aren't broken in yet.
http://www.amazon.com/Hatch-SGK100FR-Street-Kevlar-XX-Large/dp/B003X3NCTW/ref=sr_1_6?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1362329205&sr=1-6&keywords=hatch+kevlar+gloves
Thanks ICooler. These aren't the ones with the X11 liner, are they?
Here's the thread when I got them:
http://10mm-firearms.com/general-discussion/christmas-gun-gifts-post-them-up!/msg8886/#msg8886
I plan on calling Kevin this week and see what are his thoughts and/or what's new.
If PBR is using #9 it's hard to go to an extreme overload by capacity. I will ask Anthony and see if he will share. That would be the safe pick right? Let's see what this batch of DoubleTap I'm sending is using for powder.
Okay thanks. You got the fire resistant model I see.
Will be interested to hear what Kevin has to say.
If COL is shorter than a recipe calls for, then pressure during firing rises compared to what was originally intended at a set COL.
Too short of a COL can happen from two different issues that I'm aware;
1) Sloppy load practice where tolerances simply aren't being kept.
2) From any number of ways a bullet once loaded to a correct COL, later, gets pushed farther into the case before firing.
For example with the UW 10mm 135gr Nosler bullet load that we've seen range from 1.249" - 1.252"; Let's say Kevin intended for them to be loaded at 1.250" exactly for the pressure he intended to achieve. Then, any cartridges that end up at .001" shorter, like the 1.249" ones, probably won't be a big deal, even though pressure may have risen a tiny bit.
But if his intentions were a COL no shorter than 1.252", then -.004" (for any rounds coming in at a COL of 1.249") could start creating an issue in too much pressure for rounds already loaded hot. Then add an extra few tenths of a grain of powder over what was intended along with the -.004" COL, and ugly things can begin to happen real quickly. Best Case Scenario = bad smilies and primers that just fall out. Worst Case Scenario = banana peeled barrels and cracked frames. So far we seen everything from zero issues to both best and worst case scenarios I mentioned.
I just weighed a single sample of 800-X on my Redding Number 2 Beam Scale. That single sample showed it took 10 flakes of 800-X to equal one tenth of a grain (none of the gold colored specs were in the sample). If that's correct on any kind of average, then the range of .5 grains off with the UW 10mm 135gr load equals around 50 flakes of 800-X powder.
What would be nice to know is the actual intended recipe Kevin is using for the 10mm 135gr load. Then we could actually know how far off his loads are or aren't, and how much. Problem is they are sloppily loaded to the extent it's hard to guess.
PS - just checked another sample of how many flakes of 800-X are in .1 grain. This time it took 11 flakes. 10 flakes wouldn't quite do it this time.
With the Bottle-Neck cartridge the bullet selection can be a determining factor...Olgive may not allow for a good purchase during tape crimps. Like NATO style 9mm bullets. I like 0.356" bullets in mine, I am also about to test some at 0.357" This will raise pressure some too. Bullet which are smaller in dia. can also lead to loose fit.
Also the sizing of the neck area and using an expander which is not too large of dia. to straighten up the neck, inspection here to see if it is the cause loose fit.
If the cartridge is fed at an odd angle and the bullet comes in contact with anything during the feeding it maybe pushed back to cause a setback issue. Then if a cartridge is dropped it can push the bullet back also.
Many people were loading with powders such as AA#9 to be compressed and not allow the bullet to be pushed back any.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 03 2013 05:03:28 PM MSTMany people were loading with powders such as AA#9 to be compressed and not allow the bullet to be pushed back any.
That's a great idea. I may give that a try with reloaded brass in conjunction with 135gr bullets in 10mm.
So for us unwashed, non-reloading, heathens are you guys saying Underwood is not safe out of my Smith & Wesson 1076?
kudo's to underwood
Quote from: REDLINE on March 03 2013 04:03:38 PM MST
If COL is shorter than a recipe calls for, then pressure during firing rises compared to what was originally intended at a set COL.
Too short of a COL can happen from two different issues that I'm aware;
1) Sloppy load practice where tolerances simply aren't being kept.
2) From any number of ways a bullet once loaded to a correct COL, later, gets pushed farther into the case before firing.
For example with the UW 10mm 135gr Nosler bullet load that we've seen range from 1.249" - 1.252"; Let's say Kevin intended for them to be loaded at 1.250" exactly for the pressure he intended to achieve. Then, any cartridges that end up at .001" shorter, like the 1.249" ones, probably won't be a big deal, even though pressure may have risen a tiny bit.
But if his intentions were a COL no shorter than 1.252", then -.004" (for any rounds coming in at a COL of 1.249") could start creating an issue in too much pressure for rounds already loaded hot. Then add an extra few tenths of a grain of powder over what was intended along with the -.004" COL, and ugly things can begin to happen real quickly. Best Case Scenario = bad smilies and primers that just fall out. Worst Case Scenario = banana peeled barrels and cracked frames. So far we seen everything from zero issues to both best and worst case scenarios I mentioned.
I just weighed a single sample of 800-X on my Redding Number 2 Beam Scale. That single sample showed it took 10 flakes of 800-X to equal one tenth of a grain (none of the gold colored specs were in the sample). If that's correct on any kind of average, then the range of .5 grains off with the UW 10mm 135gr load equals around 50 flakes of 800-X powder.
What would be nice to know is the actual intended recipe Kevin is using for the 10mm 135gr load. Then we could actually know how far off his loads are or aren't, and how much. Problem is they are sloppily loaded to the extent it's hard to guess.
PS - just checked another sample of how many flakes of 800-X are in .1 grain. This time it took 11 flakes. 10 flakes wouldn't quite do it this time.
Redline, I think you might be making too big a deal out of some small variances. +/- .002"-.003" for OAL, and +/- .1gr powder, is completely normal for good loads. You're right that that 135gr Underwood load is a bit sloppy, but the rest you list are within a normal acceptable range. Velocity and pressure variations between those rounds with the exact same OAL and powder charge are often greater than that caused by the variations you list above.
My take is that Underwood is simply loading some of these too hot for mass production and use by the general public. A load worked up in a specific gun, that is max for that gun, is one thing, but may be too hot for another gun. I don't think Underwood is loading to the lowest common denominator, so to speak.
I don't have any experience with 800X. But with Blue Dot and Longshot loads I have worked on, I don't see statistically meaningful changes in velocity, and by extension pressure, from a few tenths of a grain more or less powder. Same with seating depth.
Like Yondering says, it takes more than .3 grains and .003" to make a difference, even at the edge.
But, if the bullet style didn't crimp well, it is possible the bullet got set back .030" or more on the way into the chamber. And that could make a difference. It is also possible with a large flake powder like 800X that a partial discharge occured in one case and the rest of the powder plus a full charge made it into the next.
Either of those scenarios could have a bad effect.
Quote from: Yondering on March 04 2013 10:25:25 AM MSTRedline, I think you might be making too big a deal out of some small variances.
My intention isn't to make a big deal out of small variances. I've only pointed out known fact. The known fact goes beyond small variances in a few disected UW loads. The known fact also includes: velocities that shouldn't be achieved, at least one primer that just fell out, horrendous smilies that could have easily ended in disaster, and at least in 357SIG a split barrel.
QuoteVelocity and pressure variations between those rounds with the exact same OAL and powder charge are often greater than that caused by the variations you list above.
That makes no sense. You say more variation is often greater when caused by less variation. That certainly isn't true unless you're right at a powder level where that powder, if suseptable, poops out anyway. In this particular case we're mostly talking about 800-X which is a powder that seems happy to keep on giving and doesn't know the meaning of the word quit. Either way I'm not sure why you'ld even say that. Like I said, I've only pointed out facts. Those facts are what they are. Attempting to demean them doesn't change them.
I agree that
most of the variation we've come across in the actual disecting of rounds so far is relatively minimal in itself. But when limits are already being pushed it doesn't always take much. And that brings us to the last of your post I quoted you on...
QuoteMy take is that Underwood is simply loading some of these too hot for mass production and use by the general public.
Probably more true than most of us would like to believe. It's also reason to support how load variances that are normally no big deal can begin to become bigger deals real quick. For me it gives reason to at least pay very close attention. Again, it's not my intention to make a big deal out of the facts. For me it's simply about being aware and paying closer attention than one might otherwise. I don't know what the furture will bring, but it will present itself soon enough. Hopefully it doesn't bring anything to light worth blinking at.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 04 2013 10:35:54 AM MST...it takes more than .3 grains and .003" to make a difference, even at the edge.
I disagree that .3 grains more of 800-X doesn't make a difference at the edge. We don't have to argue it, I'm just saying my opinion from having worked with the powder myself.
The .003" I agree as I already more/less stated.
I phoned up Kevin today and it's always a joy to talk with him. They never had a 10mm issue so no changes planned at all there. He did say they may make a change to put everything shoot-able in the Delta. Kevin said this is the first time any kind of Kaboom has happened with his ammo. Could have been set-back and he said even a hard drop by the UPS guy could do it. I asked about being on the edge and didn't get the sense he felt that way.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 04 2013 04:27:26 PM MST
I phoned up Kevin today and it's always a joy to talk with him. They never had a 10mm issue so no changes planned at all there. He did say they may make a change to put everything shoot-able in the Delta. Kevin said this is the first time any kind of Kaboom has happened with his ammo. Could have been set-back and he said even a hard drop by the UPS guy could do it. I asked about being on the edge and didn't get the sense he felt that way.
He is blaming KB's on the UPS guy?
Really?
Not blaming. He accepted full responsibility to this episode and paid for damages. However... did say UPS giving a hard drop or something with the magazines could cause it. I have seen big factory ammo suffer the same thing in pictures. It's hard to tell without being there. I told him I couldn't sell ammo :D
I am glad he accepted responsibility and paid for the damages. But by saying this could have been caused by the UPS guy he is shifting some of the blame.
Setback is usually caused by loading and unloading the same round numerous times. In my experience Winchester ammo has this issue. It doesn't happen so much with the Gold dots they issue us at work.
It could have been user induced. Point he was making is nobody but the one above would know for sure. Won't deter me one bit from buying his ammo. Kevin is one of the most stand-up and approachable guys I know.
I have pulled a fair number of bullets with an inertial bullet puller. It takes a good velocity and a VERY sudden stop. Hitting a wood bench generally is too much give. Much, much better results hitting an anvil or concrete.
Unless the box was crushed and that crushing force is what caused the set-back I have a hard time going along with the UPS guy did it theory. At least for ammo with a proper crimp.
sqlbullet, I use a 2' long piece of 4x4 and hit against the end grain, this provides a solid enough surface without damaging my kinetic puller. When doing pull-downs for detail measures, I hit just hard enough to get the bullet to start moving, then softer taps to have it just drop out easy. That keeps the powder from bouncing around.
When pulling pointed rifle type bullets or other exposed soft lead, (especially exposed lead tip) I place a wad of paper towel in the bottom of the puller tube to eliminate damage to the tip. For the rifle it help preserve the ballistic potential to load'em again. :D
There are some interesting observations here.
357 SIG is already a very unforgiving caliber to load for. High pressure, and a bottleneck cartridge with very little surface area with which to hold the bullet. This leads to a situation where setback (user induced or otherwise) occurs easily.
I guess we'll never know what the true culprit was. From the results, it doesn't look like a "slight" overcharge. I wonder what powder he was using for those loads? 800x appears to be very unforgiving.
Was the cause bullet setback? If so, was it caused by poor neck tension, or repeated loadings of the same cartridge (user induced setback)?
There are so many things that can go wrong with guns & ammo!
Well the number one reason I would NEVER buy a Glock is they do not male a SINGLE model that feels comfortable in my hand. But it is kind of scary that most (Like 95%) of the "KABOOM!" stories seem to be Glocks. At not from like double charged reloads either!
Quote from: RMM on March 05 2013 10:38:49 AM MST
There are some interesting observations here.
357 SIG is already a very unforgiving caliber to load for. High pressure, and a bottleneck cartridge with very little surface area with which to hold the bullet. This leads to a situation where setback (user induced or otherwise) occurs easily.
I guess we'll never know what the true culprit was. From the results, it doesn't look like a "slight" overcharge. I wonder what powder he was using for those loads? 800x appears to be very unforgiving.
Was the cause bullet setback? If so, was it caused by poor neck tension, or repeated loadings of the same cartridge (user induced setback)?
There are so many things that can go wrong with guns & ammo!
Have no idea what powder is used but Hodgdon only publishes one load for 357 SIG w/125 gr GD. That is 10.0 grains (no min-max) and that is a compressed load. Perhaps Longshot?
Quote from: REDLINE on March 03 2013 01:02:57 PM MST..........At least one KB, numberous heavy smilies, at least one primer falling out, and velocitites too high for SAAMI spec pressures prove it. And this is limited to what I can remember off the top of my head that we've simply seen and heard. What haven't we heard or seen?....
Dead men tell no tales.
Quote from: DM1906 on March 06 2013 09:27:20 AM MSTDead men tell no tales.
That's a list I'm in no hurry to be on. :D
Quote from: EdMc on March 05 2013 01:55:52 PM MST
Quote from: RMM on March 05 2013 10:38:49 AM MST
There are some interesting observations here.
357 SIG is already a very unforgiving caliber to load for. High pressure, and a bottleneck cartridge with very little surface area with which to hold the bullet. This leads to a situation where setback (user induced or otherwise) occurs easily.
I guess we'll never know what the true culprit was. From the results, it doesn't look like a "slight" overcharge. I wonder what powder he was using for those loads? 800x appears to be very unforgiving.
Was the cause bullet setback? If so, was it caused by poor neck tension, or repeated loadings of the same cartridge (user induced setback)?
There are so many things that can go wrong with guns & ammo!
Have no idea what powder is used but Hodgdon only publishes one load for 357 SIG w/125 gr GD. That is 10.0 grains (no min-max) and that is a compressed load. Perhaps Longshot?
The Hodgdon loads are; Speer Gold Dot 125 gr over IMR800X 10.0 grains compressed @ 1438 fps 36,100 psi
Oops....I did leave out a 'few' important facts. :o
Thanks.
BTW, have you tried the load? I have some loaded but haven't had a chance to test them.
The 357Sig's are OK for me with that load, however I still need to develop from there for my 9x25Dillon loads...
FWIW, it was my gun. What a topic for my first post :)
regards,
- jim
Gotta start somewhere! So what hot loads and how many had you put through that barrel until this?
txgunshowreview, you had a rough start but welcome to the party! I still think your issue had to deal with a bullet setback...what caused that it is hard to say! Anyway you saw and felt the results, glad you were not seriously hurt and taken care of by Kevin. Hope you enjoy the forum! ;D
Welcome to the forum. How's the Gen 4 G20 working out? ;D
With every new Glock!
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7631/glockglove.jpg)
Just ribbing ya! ;D
Thanks, everyone.
Intercooler - I'd say about 1000 rounds of MBI (hardly hot in the Underwood Sense), Good To Go Ammo (not hot at all), Some Speer Frangible (on the mild side), and both the Underwood Gold Dots and FMJ's. I inspect the gun at every cleaning (which is after every practice session), including the barrel with a bore light. No issues whatsoever before this session, but I really should have taken your advice about the practice glove :) I shot in groups of three and collected brass every 3-6 shots. No bulges, discolorations, or any other visible issue. KB happened in the last string of 5 rounds in the box.
This was a 'new' load from Underwood, supposed to be new brass. I'll have to open another box and see which brand they use before it gets shipped back.
EdMc - Good so far.
You could send some to Shadow and let him tear them down.
That's an idea!
- jim
That would be awesome, even just to find out the powder being used, if possible.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 03 2013 09:21:43 AM MST
As someone mentioned there what is the draw to the Sig round? I only see 125gr listed so why wouldn't you just do a 10mm?
I am thinking the same thing man. my son just bought a Glock 33 in the .357 Sig and over the weekend we had it on the range.
With 125 grain Underwoods it was just a nasty thing to shoot as the recoil in that baby Glock platform was just BRUTAL.
It grouped pretty good but was absolutely no fun to shoot! Heck I would rather shoot a .454,SW500 or .44 mag than that nasty little thing!!
If you carried it it would defeat the purpose of having 10 in the mag cauze you would take forever to recover after every round!
My Glock 29 groups better hits harder and even with something like the Underwood 175 grain is fun to shoot on the range. I also wonder what the point of the .357 sig round is with the 10mm on the scene??
Could not give me a .357 Sig unless I could trade or sell it for a 10mm!!
Hence give and take. We all weigh our options differently. I mostly agree with your thoughts. By the same token one person sees merit in full power loads of 357 Magnum through a Ruger SP101. The next guy won't shoot anything beyond 38 Special in his. I wouldn't choose either and will stick with my G20 and 10mm Auto for the reasons you've mentioned and more. But yeah, it is sometimes interesting how we all weigh the give and take differently.
Quote from: Ascension on March 11 2013 04:39:22 PM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on March 03 2013 09:21:43 AM MST
As someone mentioned there what is the draw to the Sig round? I only see 125gr listed so why wouldn't you just do a 10mm?
I am thinking the same thing man. my son just bought a Glock 33 in the .357 Sig and over the weekend we had it on the range.
With 125 grain Underwoods it was just a nasty thing to shoot as the recoil in that baby Glock platform was just BRUTAL.
It grouped pretty good but was absolutely no fun to shoot! Heck I would rather shoot a .454,SW500 or .44 mag than that nasty little thing!!
If you carried it it would defeat the purpose of having 10 in the mag cauze you would take forever to recover after every round!
My Glock 29 groups better hits harder and even with something like the Underwood 175 grain is fun to shoot on the range. I also wonder what the point of the .357 sig round is with the 10mm on the scene??
Could not give me a .357 Sig unless I could trade or sell it for a 10mm!!
Well the one reason right off the top of my head is 357 SIG ammo can usually be had for cheaper than 10mm. Now I use and reload for both, so the dfference in price is small, but 9mm boolets are a lot less than 10mm boolets, and 357 loads use a touch less powder. Now my SIG P229 has both a 40cal S&W barrel and a 357 SIG barrel. In a barrel swap I can do in under a minute, I can fire each caliber. They even both use the same mags as a 357 SIG is basically a 40 S&W necked down to .357. And the real amazing thing is using my usual recipe for either case, the POA is exactly the same at 21 feet. No Kentucky windage needs to be done, sights are fine for both.
In general I find cartridge selection to be about as dogmatic as religious affiliation. People have VERY strong beliefs about what they choose to do and are very emotional about challenges to those opinions.
I tend to agree that the 10mm fills a lot of roles. Thanks to ammo from PPU and Underwood, we can even buy the extremes of performance in factory ammo, no handloads needed.
But, that doesn't change the fact that the market, for reasons that are really beyond logical definition, is choosing thinks like the 357 sig and 45 GAP.
It is what it is. My experience with a Glock in 357 Sig mimic's Ascension's. Not pleasant or easy to shoot well.
My SIG has both a 40 S&W barrel and a 357 SIG barrel. I hardly can tell one caliber from the other when I'm shooting them. What I love is either round uses the same mags, since a 357 SIG is just a .40 cal necked down to 9mm size.
Why dont we let the 40 S&W be the 40 and put the silly little 125gr 0.355" bullet in the end of a 10mm case. Wont help those w/ small hands, but would there be need for a second shot? The little Sig round seems like an awful lot of work to make a question thats hard to answer.
rogn, they do have a 10mm cartridge that is necked down to the 0.355 or 9mm, its called the 9x25Dillon. It works well aslo from the 10mm platform of guns with a barrel swap. Something like a 95 grain pill screaming at 2100 fps, 115 at 1800 fps... ;D
Im embarrassed. Thanks for the info. Sounds like a safer way to get the needed horse pressure for the task. BUT, the little 10 seems to be more pragmatic.
I love the 357 sig. It shoots so flat, so accurate, and hits with so much velocity. I like the 9mm bullet because of the yaw, but I don't like the velocity. I seriously looked for a Glock in that caliber but never could find one in person.
I don't care what anyone says, increased force plays a part in stopping power. Yeah a 22 will kill by knocking out a major vessel, but the shearing caused by larger calibers also plays a large part.
I'm thinking reloading dies in the Dillon may be REAL expensive, and so will store bought ammo, which would also be much harder to find than 357 SIG ammo. And just how fast DO you want to push a 9mm pill, anyways, That said I have a 9mm, a 9mm Mak, a .380, like I said... my P229 fires both 357 Sig and 40 cal S&W, and I have two 10mm's. I think I have all the bases covered.
That said, I know NOTHING about Underwood Ammo. Is it supposed to be hot stuff?
Quote from: aika on March 20 2013 10:46:17 PM MDTI don't care what anyone says, increased force plays a part in stopping power. Yeah a 22 will kill by knocking out a major vessel, but the shearing caused by larger calibers also plays a large part.
The 10mm kills in large part by the explosion factor. :P
Quote from: gandog56 on March 20 2013 11:24:02 PM MDTThat said, I know NOTHING about Underwood Ammo. Is it supposed to be hot stuff?
Not supposed. It is. No current 10mm ammo maker loads it as hot or hotter than Underwood.
Quote from: REDLINE on March 21 2013 01:42:20 AM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on March 20 2013 11:24:02 PM MDTThat said, I know NOTHING about Underwood Ammo. Is it supposed to be hot stuff?
Not supposed. It is. No current 10mm ammo maker loads it as hot or hotter than Underwood.
This.
They advertise VERY hot 10mm loads. And in testing by various forum members, we have found their advertising to be a little off. They almost always
EXCEED the advertised numbers. :o
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 22 2013 10:45:30 AM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on March 21 2013 01:42:20 AM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on March 20 2013 11:24:02 PM MDTThat said, I know NOTHING about Underwood Ammo. Is it supposed to be hot stuff?
Not supposed. It is. No current 10mm ammo maker loads it as hot or hotter than Underwood.
This.
They advertise VERY hot 10mm loads. And in testing by various forum members, we have found their advertising to be a little off. They almost always EXCEED the advertised numbers. :o
Well if velocity was all that important to me, I would have a chrony.
It isn't though, all I want is accuracy. A 10mm 185 grain slug will do enough damage without needing warp speed delivery.
Thing is the 10 and 357 are going pretty close in speed, although the 10 will have more force because of mass.
Quote from: aika on March 23 2013 04:09:51 PM MDTThing is the 10 and 357 are going pretty close in speed, although the 10 will have more force because of mass.
And the 10mm will usually poke a larger diameter hole on top of it.
And here I thought they made 357 SIG to hit .357 mag velocities.
They did, specifically from the standpoint of a 125gr bullet and velocity from a common carry sized platform used by LE.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 23 2013 09:10:22 PM MDT
And here I thought they made 357 SIG to hit .357 mag velocities.
The .357 Sig was never intended, nor did it achieve, .357M power levels (in comparative commercial loadings). It was marketing. .357 Sig just sounds better than .355 Sig, or 9mm Sig.
Well, since an option for my SIG P229 in .40 cal, was a barrel for 357 SIG, I figured why not, since it uses the same magazines. $140 for a new SIG barrel is a whole lot cheaper than a whole new SIG pistol.
Recieved the ammo from the box that caused the KA-Boom! See the pull-down info...
The link for the pull-down of the ammo from the box that was used...
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/msg12302/#msg12302 (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/msg12302/#msg12302)
Quote from: DM1906 on March 24 2013 10:45:14 AM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on March 23 2013 09:10:22 PM MDT
And here I thought they made 357 SIG to hit .357 mag velocities.
The .357 Sig was never intended, nor did it achieve, .357M power levels (in comparative commercial loadings). It was marketing. .357 Sig just sounds better than .355 Sig, or 9mm Sig.
I though the 357 Sig with a 125 grain bullet through a 4" barrel was suppose to mimic the performance of a 125 grain bullet through a 4" revolver.
.
Ballistics by the Inch shows the Corbon 125 grain JHP factory loads at 1496 for 357 mag and 1468 for 357 sig from a 4" barrel
The Federal 125 grain JHP factory loads are 1511 for 357 mag and 1426 for 357 sig, again from a 4" barrel.
This does not take into account the real world differences in gun types as the BBTI crowd uses a contender barrel they cut down. No cylinder or cylinder gap in play here.
They do test in real world guns as well. In a S&W 686 357 Mag the Corbon load made 1477 fps and the Federal load made 1426 fps. In a Steyr M357 in 357 Sig the Corbon load made 1410 and the Federal load made 1367.
It seems the 357 Sig trails 50-100 fps behind the 357 magnum in most factory loads. However, guns in 357 sig of comparable barrel length will be physically smaller and generally lighter than their 357 Mag counterparts, not to mention carrying significantly more rounds.
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 25 2017 08:22:05 AM MST
Ballistics by the Inch shows the Corbon 125 grain JHP factory loads at 1496 for 357 mag and 1468 for 357 sig from a 4" barrel
The Federal 125 grain JHP factory loads are 1511 for 357 mag and 1426 for 357 sig, again from a 4" barrel.
This does not take into account the real world differences in gun types as the BBTI crowd uses a contender barrel they cut down. No cylinder or cylinder gap in play here.
They do test in real world guns as well. In a S&W 686 357 Mag the Corbon load made 1477 fps and the Federal load made 1426 fps. In a Steyr M357 in 357 Sig the Corbon load made 1410 and the Federal load made 1367.
It seems the 357 Sig trails 50-100 fps behind the 357 magnum in most factory loads. However, guns in 357 sig of comparable barrel length will be physically smaller and generally lighter than their 357 Mag counterparts, not to mention carrying significantly more rounds.
(just a note/comparison)
A revolver's barrel length is measured from the forcing cone to the muzzle. The cylinder length (chamber) is not counted.
I semi-auto pistol's barrel length is measured from the breach-face to the muzzle. The chamber length is counted.
A 4" 357 Magnum revolver barrel is roughly comparable to a 5.5" semi-auto barrel. The cylinder gap may interpolate to a shorter semi-auto barrel.
In overall gun size, my G20 with 6" barrel and a long slide is roughly equal to my 357 Magnum revolver with a 4" barrel. The revolver is wider. Width and length is within 1/4".
From the Ballistics by the inch website, the Corbon 357 SIG w/125gr JHP reaches 1550 fps from a 6" barrel, and the Corbon 357 Magnum w/125gr JHP reaches only 1477 from a S&W 686 with 4" barrel. For the same size gun, the 357 SIG shows ~75fps more velocity. A Glock 20 with a 15 round magazine and 1 in the chamber has twice the capacity of an 8 shot 357 Magnum revolver, and unless your name is Jerry Miculek magazine changes will be faster in the G20.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
.
.
my_old_glock, we are on the same page. ;)
You came right out and said what I was alluding to. In a gun of comparable size, the 357 sig will have more velocity and more rounds.
Just thought to mention....re Underwood ammo...I have shot a LOT of Underwoods 357 SIG loads. I have hoarded quite a bit of it with the Speer 125 gold Dot but note: I have had a number of S&W M&P's full size and compact, in 357 Sig. I did have one in particular (full size) that could not shoot the Underwood loads. The 357 Sig barrel in that gun, was extremely accurate, more so than most but, it would not handle the Underwood ammo...to hot in that barrel. No problem in any of the other guns. I suspect dimensions of that were on the tight side, (possibly the chamber too though I don't actually know) but using that particular barrel, it would drop the primers out of the fired case. I could switch that same barrel into the other guns, and get the same result...primers falling out. Nothing of the sort with the other guns and other barrels.
So it just goes show that each combination can be somewhat of a rule unto it's self. Which is why when reloading, the same applies... A number of guns may take a top loading combination...and the next one won't. Don't assume, test.