just cast my first 100 lead 200gr boolits for my 10mm, now i need a powder and a charge... you guys that shoot lead, what is your favorite powder and charge? can i use Longshot?
I have some longshot and tried it with my 205 grain cast bullets. I just ran with the FMJ data for 200 grain and all was good.
I have also used Blue Dot and AA#9.
I mostly use Blue Dot for my cast bullets but LongShot should work also, it maybe a hotter flame front that could erode the bullets base if driven too hot...
With Blue Dot I am using 10.0 grains under the RCBS 200gr TC SWC
thanks guys... i am going to load up some LS and Chrony them this weekend... i'll report back with some results
alright, got a chance to chrony these loads... a little background, i decided i wanted to start casting my own boolits so i bought a mold and pot and casted up some 200gr WFN, sized, tumble lubed, then reloaded...
all powder is with Longshot, WLP primer, COAL 1.255, these were all 3 shots strings, 5.3" after market bbl ported, no observable leading (i inspected the bbl after each string):
charge gr / fps avg / fps std / casehead expansion
7.2 / 1102 / 19 / 0.4260
7.5 / 1124 / 22 / 0.4262
7.8 / 1166 / 20 / 0.4263
8.1 / 1209 / 17 / 0.4267
for comparison, here are some loads using a Nosler 200gr JHP and Longshot:
8.0 / 1172 / 11 / 0.4263
8.3 / 1212 / 2 / 0.4267
lots more variation with the lead, and slightly higher casehead expansion and velocities... overall i am very pleased with the results as i plan to use the lead rounds for practice punching holes in paper...
I know I've used AA#9 for 200's. but they were not as accurate as my 185 grainers I prefer now.
Nice work Caneman!
Seems like you found a real consistent load here:
Nosler 200gr JHP and Longshot:
8.3 / 1212 / 2 / 0.4267
Also I would expect it's a very reasonable velocity for the bullet without being by any means wimpy.
Quote from: Caneman on March 23 2013 06:10:43 PM MDT
alright, got a chance to chrony these loads... a little background, i decided i wanted to start casting my own boolits so i bought a mold and pot and casted up some 200gr WFN, sized, tumble lubed, then reloaded...
What mold did you get?
^^^ I got the NOE RG2 mold that has two sets of pins, one is 200 gr WFN and the other set is 180gr HP:
(http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/1111-190-40Cal%20180Gr.%20WFN%20HP%20PB.jpg)
(http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/403180Gr.WFNRG2cavityPB%20001-F640x480.jpg)
I was warned by more experienced casters not to get this type of mold as my first, but i thought it would be a good value as i could cast for my 10mm and my G27 EDC... the 200gr WFN was fairly easy to cast with, but the 180gr was a little more challenging as it takes the mold longer to heat up (actually it takes the HP pins quite a while to get to temp) before it started casting good boolits... overall, casting has been a blast and i highly recommend it, not as hard to do as you might think...
Ohhhh....You had to mention NOE....
And I had to go look at their website again.
And see they have 200 grain four-cavity molds in stock with both HP and FN pins....For $131.00
And since they are only 45 minutes south of me, I could probably go pick it up tonight.
You are a very bad man. ;D
now that would be an addiction living that close to NOE, really like their molds... what i like about them most (besides the great quality) is that they are typically over-sized by 0.002 or 0.003 and allow you to size the boolit to your barrel, the production molds like RCBS and Lyman are sized at the nominal diameters and you can't customize them as needed... they are reasonably priced as well, imo, a really good value
Caneman, that looks like a sweet mold, good choice!
A tip for the mold heat-up issues - if you smoke the mold cavities and pins with a butane lighter, you'll be able to cast good bullets at lower mold temp, and it won't be as picky about heat. To smoke the mold, hold the yellow tip of the flame right on the mold cavities, this will build up a thin layer of soot. No need to overdo it, but it won't hurt anything if you do.
Do not use a candle, match, or any other flame that contains oil/wax, this will contaminate the mold.
Hope that helps!
I have found with Lee aluminum molds wiping the cavity with a cotton swab that is just damp with 2-cycle motor oil and then letting it sit on the top of the furnace until it stops smoking works well too. And lasts a very long time.
Get to much and you are in for LOTS of wrinkly bullets while you burn the oil out. So it isn't for everyone.
Quote from: Yondering on March 26 2013 10:12:20 AM MDT
Caneman, that looks like a sweet mold, good choice!
A tip for the mold heat-up issues - if you smoke the mold cavities and pins with a butane lighter, you'll be able to cast good bullets at lower mold temp, and it won't be as picky about heat. To smoke the mold, hold the yellow tip of the flame right on the mold cavities, this will build up a thin layer of soot. No need to overdo it, but it won't hurt anything if you do.
Do not use a candle, match, or any other flame that contains oil/wax, this will contaminate the mold.
Hope that helps!
good idea, i read that some are using a pencil torch to heat up the HP tips
Quote from: Caneman on March 26 2013 06:23:01 PM MDT
Quote from: Yondering on March 26 2013 10:12:20 AM MDT
Caneman, that looks like a sweet mold, good choice!
A tip for the mold heat-up issues - if you smoke the mold cavities and pins with a butane lighter, you'll be able to cast good bullets at lower mold temp, and it won't be as picky about heat. To smoke the mold, hold the yellow tip of the flame right on the mold cavities, this will build up a thin layer of soot. No need to overdo it, but it won't hurt anything if you do.
Do not use a candle, match, or any other flame that contains oil/wax, this will contaminate the mold.
Hope that helps!
good idea, i read that some are using a pencil torch to heat up the HP tips
You shouldn't need to do that, if you smoke them. I cast a lot of hollow points (I use Mihec molds, but similar concept); using the common wheel weight + 2% tin alloy, I expect good bullets from the first cast or two, starting with a mold that's just barely too hot to touch. Pot temp is right about 750 F, for what that's worth.
The only time that it's reasonable to need a really hot mold, IMO, is when casting from pure lead, with no tin added, and a mold with fine detail like a hollow point. Otherwise you shouldn't need to overheat your mold.
Part of the trick is getting a fast enough cadence that your mold doesn't cool down while you gawk at your purty boolits. I have seen lots of new casters do this. They open the mold and look at the bullets in the mold. Then they drop them out of the mold and examine the wrinkly bullets of a first cast for 45 seconds to a minute.
Then they repeat, not realizing that all the heat gained from the pour was lost while they looked at their not so prized bullets and wondered over the wrinkles.
Cast 100 bullets as fast as the sprues cool, then examine our results. Chances are 80 or more will be perfect.
My Lyman pot has a mold shelf on the top edge of the pot to allow preheating of the mold as the alloy melts, when the alloy is read, so to is the mold! Some people use a small hot plate to pre heat their molds~ 8)
i gawk at the boolits while i wait for the sprue to cool... it's your fault shadow you tempted me with casting boolits :) , now i am finishing up a pid for my Lee drip-o-matic to set a more consistent temp... first 3 casting sessions have been ladle pour with a propane burner, fun to learn how to do this technique...
i talked to Tom at accurate molds (email, anyway), and he designed a 220gr boolit for the 10mm, check it out its the Accurate Bullet Design 40-220B (may get his one next month, if the wife doesn't find out!), the purpose if this load would be a "bear load" for woods use:
http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-220B-D.png (http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=40-220B-D.png)
(http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/40-220B.png)
(http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/detail/40-220B-D.png)
Caneman writes!
Quoteit's your fault shadow you tempted me with casting boolits
Well...I'm not sorry and I'm quite sure you won't be either! :o
I use a small vise grip to add weight to the drip-o-matic stem, it let's me twist it some also to help re seat.
That's a heavy bullet, I see it is being made with a bevel base...that helps with seating but if it were a gas check base that would help with driving it at upper speeds. Getting checks adds to the cost and time. If the base was cut straight it would be heavier still...
The length will take up powder space so the load will require adjustments as not to raise pressures too much.
Nice bullet design no the less! 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 30 2013 09:01:14 PM MDT
Caneman writes! Quoteit's your fault shadow you tempted me with casting boolits
Well...I'm not sorry and I'm quite sure you won't be either! :o
I use a small vise grip to add weight to the drip-o-matic stem, it let's me twist it some also to help re seat.
That's a heavy bullet, I see it is being made with a bevel base...that helps with seating but if it were a gas check base that would help with driving it at upper speeds. Getting checks adds to the cost and time. If the base was cut straight it would be heavier still...
The length will take up powder space so the load will require adjustments as not to raise pressures too much.
Nice bullet design no the less! 8)
the new Lee 4-20 now has a hevier metal handle :P
Tom said he beveled the base so it wouldn't deform the case as much due to it being seated lower... this boolit will probably move at around 1050 ~ 1100 fps as a first guess, you think a gas check would be needed for this lower velocity (if sized properly)? I can see this load starting at about 6.0gr of LS and loving up from there...
If sized properly and not deformed by too much crimp it should do well. Did he give a total length? I see the 0.6495" number on the page but is it longer than that? ??? The Hornady 200XTP is 0.682"
The Underwood pull-down showed their's as; Length 0.7360"/ Dia. 0.401"/ Meplat 0.280": Hard Cast 220gr. HC actual weight 219.0 grains and he was pushing them with 800X @ 1200 fps...the one I tested left leading pretty bad in my S&W1006...
that drawing is a little confusing, but if you start at the base and find each up arrow it delineates the OAL up to that point, so the bullet OAL length is 0.700 as shown by the top most up arrow...
wonder if that Underwood bullet was a little undersized for your barrel, that is the problem with off the shelf lead as they have to offer one size fits all and it may not do well with your gun...
my 10 slugged out at 0.400, so I can get this mold made at 0.403 and size it to 0.402...
you think i can water quench these boolits and make them more like hardcast?
don't think i would want to push this load to 1200 fps, i would think that 1100 fps would be plenty...
The Underwood pull-down was measured at 0.4010", don't really know why it left so much lead in the barrel either. ???
I didn't get that with my own cast bullets...
That bullet would be a lot better for the 10mm if that bevel section was removed from the mold (making the bullet shorter by that much), probably end up about 215gr? Looks like it would be a pretty good bullet with that modification.
Leading comes from pressure as much as velocity. Every full-pressure 10mm or 40 S&W cast bullet I've recovered shows signs of gas cutting at the base, if it doesn't have a gas check, regardless of size or hardness. Larger diameter and harder does cut down on the gas cutting, but does not eliminate it. I'm using thin aluminum discs (cut from soda cans) sized over the plain base, to eliminate this. Leading and gas cutting are completely eliminated, and long range accuracy is improved as a result. I made my own tool, but PatMarlin on castboolits sells a plain base .40 checkmaker that works very well.
Quote from: Yondering on March 31 2013 06:39:29 PM MDT
That bullet would be a lot better for the 10mm if that bevel section was removed from the mold (making the bullet shorter by that much), probably end up about 215gr? Looks like it would be a pretty good bullet with that modification.
Leading comes from pressure as much as velocity. Every full-pressure 10mm or 40 S&W cast bullet I've recovered shows signs of gas cutting at the base, if it doesn't have a gas check, regardless of size or hardness. Larger diameter and harder does cut down on the gas cutting, but does not eliminate it. I'm using thin aluminum discs (cut from soda cans) sized over the plain base, to eliminate this. Leading and gas cutting are completely eliminated, and long range accuracy is improved as a result. I made my own tool, but PatMarlin on castboolits sells a plain base .40 checkmaker that works very well.
that looks like a good tool, for $84 not bad since it is probably a lifetime investiment
i had a discussion with Tom again of Accurate Molds... he can make this 220gr as a flat base, but was concerned that it wouldn't chamber... it did a test, seating a 200gr boolit the same depth inside the case as the 220gr, tapered the rim to 0.4195 and it dropped right it the chamber... i see the benefit of having a plain base boolit, being able to use a gas check with PatMarlin gas check die for plain base boolits, or being able to not us a gc with just the plain base... more to come :)
I have a 215gr WFNGC from mountainmolds.com that measures .660" with GC attached, Bullet weight is 208gr + GC 8gr = 216gr. I am thinking of getting a true heavyweight bullet in the 220 or 230 gr class that will be PB.
Sean
Caneman, one of the main problems with a bevel base bullet is trying to lube them. In a normal RCBS/Lyman style luber-sizer, the bevel base causes lube to get under the bullet base, and makes a big mess. It's almost impossible to lube them cleanly, without finding some way to seal off that bevel from the lube. (I have used styrofoam sheet and shotgun wad petals with some success, when necessary.) I think this is the biggest reason many casters prefer plain base, IMO.
Tom's concern about chambering that bullet is valid, in some makes of brass, but most brass you'll find now should be OK. I shoot a 220gr cast bullet that's about that long, and using mixed brass, once in a while I get one that bulges around the base and won't chamber. This also causes the base to get rounded off, usually not evenly, so it's not good for accuracy. Just choose your brass, and it should be OK.
I do like that bullet design. One thing I'd recommend is a small step-down at the front driving band, where it transitions to the nose. A step down to .398" or so is adequate, and ensures a consistent band length after sizing. Some bullets will drop a little larger than others, depending on mold and alloy temp, and alloy itself, and sometimes they won't be sized perfectly concentric. All of these can cause uneven front band lengths, which can sometimes cause issues with seating and throat engagement.
Yondering I agree with most all of what you are stating, However I don't like and step down for semiauto as in the (Semi Wad Cutter) except that necessary for cutting clean holes on paper targets. I like the smooth transition back into the bullet's shoulders.
I understand the principle you refer to because using the RCBS or Lyman sizers they can deform that section. Using the STAR sizer this doesn't happen because the are sized nose first as they are pushed thru on their base, and I find my bullets to be more uniform from stem to stern!
That is one reason why I move away from the RCBS sizer lubricator for my semiauto bullets also the STAR sizer is much faster for the task!
http://www.magmaengineering.com/component/banners/click/14/ (http://www.magmaengineering.com/component/banners/click/14/)
Shadow, I hear what you're saying, but a small step-down like I'm talking about doesn't affect feeding in a semi-auto at all; we're only talking about a .003-.005" step, not a semi wadcutter shoulder. The brass itself makes more of a shoulder on the loaded round than what I'm referring to.
In fact, a small step like this is even more necessary in a semi-auto, IMO, to avoid potential out of battery issues.
Both bullet styles in this pic have a step like I'm talking about, at the front driving band. When sized, it's just barely enough of a step to feel.
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/IMG_0767.jpg)
Yes, that's very cool and a serious chunk of lead! Both of my RCBS 10mm molds have a slight SWC even though they are TC designs, my Lyman TC or the Devastator HP do not.
I'd bet that would make for a nice HP bullet with a deep and wide cavity... :o
Quote from: Yondering on March 31 2013 06:39:29 PM MDTI'm using thin aluminum discs (cut from soda cans) sized over the plain base, to eliminate this. Leading and gas cutting are completely eliminated, and long range accuracy is improved as a result. I made my own tool, but PatMarlin on castboolits sells a plain base .40 checkmaker that works very well.
did you use a design you found online? i would be interested in making my own, if possible... i have a spare .40sw taper crimp die that could possibly be part of the design
edit: did you make something like this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150997-hand-tool-made-check-maker/page2&highlight=gas+check (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150997-hand-tool-made-check-maker/page2&highlight=gas+check)
No, I just made a tool from stuff in my shop. I did a writeup on it a while back, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409223 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409223)
I now skip the middle step described in that writeup, forming the check in the luber-sizer press. I just take the checks straight from the punch and size them onto my bullets.
You have to punch the disks out larger than .40 cal so they can wrap around the bullet base, so your extra crimp die may not be much use. Even a flat .500" circle is too small; my 1/2" punch works because of the shaped nose, so it draws more material in.
Farther down in that writeup I described some plain base checks made by James Sage (sagesoutdoors.com); he now sells those on Ebay as part of his regular product line. His checks are .008" thick though, and soda can aluminum is .004-.005" thick. You might be able to persuade him to make the checks from thinner material; I think it can be purchased in strips. The thicker .008" checks work fine, but are a little harder to size, and do raise pressure a little more compared to the same bullet plain based.
I'm trying to figure if it's worth my while to swage my own jacketed bullets. I would rather not shoot pure lead.
Here is a guy with some very innovative ideas about bullet designs and molds...Be sure to look over both links over at Handloads!
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=32719&PN=1&TPN=1 (http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=32719&PN=1&TPN=1)
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=32662&PN=1 (http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=32662&PN=1)
Quote from: gandog56 on April 02 2013 08:31:00 PM MDT
I'm trying to figure if it's worth my while to swage my own jacketed bullets. I would rather not shoot pure lead.
if you put on the gas check it has the potential to eliminate all the leading, that is why i am looking into this as suggested by Yondering
Quote from: Yondering on April 02 2013 07:47:47 PM MDT
No, I just made a tool from stuff in my shop. I did a writeup on it a while back, here: http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409223 (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1409223)
I now skip the middle step described in that writeup, forming the check in the luber-sizer press. I just take the checks straight from the punch and size them onto my bullets.
You have to punch the disks out larger than .40 cal so they can wrap around the bullet base, so your extra crimp die may not be much use. Even a flat .500" circle is too small; my 1/2" punch works because of the shaped nose, so it draws more material in.
Farther down in that writeup I described some plain base checks made by James Sage (sagesoutdoors.com); he now sells those on Ebay as part of his regular product line. His checks are .008" thick though, and soda can aluminum is .004-.005" thick. You might be able to persuade him to make the checks from thinner material; I think it can be purchased in strips. The thicker .008" checks work fine, but are a little harder to size, and do raise pressure a little more compared to the same bullet plain based.
i'm impressed, that looks perfect... couldn't be easier to make or attach, i have a Lyman 45 and .401 sizer so that would work perfect... how well do these soda can plain base gas checks stay on- can you pull them off fairly easy?
i gotta say, that shaped nose is simple genius... you are essentially punching and forming at the same time, at least forming good enough for a PB gas check to be attached 8) i am sure the size of the slot has something to do with it as well to allow for some slippage... i have looked at four or five different plans today for making a gas check making punch/die and this is probably easiest/best i have seen for what i am looking for...
Thanks for the compliments. I'll admit to some of it being pure coincidence (the size of the slot, for example, is just the width of the cutting disc for my angle grinder) but as an engineer I do have some knowledge of stamping and drawing sheet metal, so I knew it could be done. I did have to mess with the nose shape on the punch a bit; you'll notice the nose is rounded. I originally started with a sharper corner, but that tore the checks during forming.
These checks don't come off the bullet easily. You can peel them off if you're determined, but they do stand up to some rough handling with no problems. I do find that they come off the base of the bullet after firing; the rifling tends to cut the check just enough that they drop off the bullet pretty close to the muzzle, and I consistently find them 6-8 feet in front of my shooting position. The James Sage and PatMarlin checks, on the other hand (I use Pat's Checkmaker for 9mm) tend to stay on the bullet during flight. I haven't found any measurable difference in accuracy between the two styles.
One other consideration is the condition of your size die; the mouth should be rounded and polished to avoid tearing the checks during sizing. This is fairly easy to do with sandpaper on a split dowel in a drill, or a felt wheel and rouge on a dremel.
i just bought the sizer die new, so i will just chuck it in my small bench lathe and polish it with steel wool... maybe put a slight chamfer on the mouth also and polish it out
thinking i may try to make this so that it fits in my Rockchucker... might use some 7/8-14 all thread and bore it out to 1/2", then make a punch that will fit in the shell holder... i have a plastic soda bottle threaded connector (for a Redding G-RX sizer) that could fit on top of the die body and collect all the gas checks as they are pushed through the top... too much fun ;D
this is coming along nicely, gotta send in my order to accurate for that 220gr mold
I'm not sure if my checkmaker die would work as well mounted in a press. I mount it in a vice, and slap the punch with a piece of wood. I do see a difference in quality of the check between a slow heavy hit and a sharp fast hit on the punch; sharp & fast works better. However, that all depends on the tolerances of the die. For use in a press like your Rockchucker, you will probably need tighter tolerances, and a hardened die body (or the cutting surface at least).
Something else to keep in mind is with a single side cut in the die body like mine, the cutting side of the die needs to be supported, not the other side that just guides the punch. Mounting it in a press, with the slot above the press threads, will bend the die. For use in a press, you'd need to set it up so the slot is below the theads, inside the O-frame. Hopefully that makes sense.
If you are looking to design your own bullet and buy a mould try mountainmolds.com they have a online design program. I have many moulds from them and his moulds are top of the line.
I just designed and ordered a .402-230 gr WFNGC at 73% meplat (4-7week wait). I prefer a gascheck because of the pressures involved in top end 10MM loads.
Sean
I can second the quality of Mountain Molds. I only wish I could get a 5 or 6 cavity mold from them.
:'( Indeed . I ordered a 3 cavity.
Sean
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 04 2013 02:34:00 PM MDT
I can second the quality of Mountain Molds. I only wish I could get a 5 or 6 cavity mold from them.
Yonder you bring up some good points... i think i am just going to make it with the punch in the ram and see where that takes me
how long is the nose of your punch before it is squared up on the edges?
Caneman, here are some dimensions for you. The calipers are set at .400" in the picture, for a sense of scale. The punch is a 1/2" drill bit.
I agree on the quality of Mountain Molds. I have not purchased from Accurate Molds, but hear they are high quality as well.
I do like that dual lube groove bullet design above, partly because it should work well for loading long with 40 S&W brass (leave the top groove unlubed).
(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/Misc/10mm20PB20check20punch.jpg)
^^^ thanks so much!
i'm going to get some aluminum can gas check material tonight, and really the only way to empty the aluminum can of its contents without wasting it is to drink the 24 oz of Bud Light that is inside ;D
Well, my four cavity version of the mold is waiting for me to pick up. I hope to make it down there tonight and cast a few this weekend.
^^^ put up a few pics of your boolits
Quote from: Caneman on April 05 2013 01:26:07 PM MDT
^^^ put up a few pics of your boolits
Precision Bullets 185 grain moly RFN
(http://www.precisionbullets.com/IMG/40-185rnf.jpeg)
Success! it was just as you explained, the key was getting the correct roundness on the punch... i opted to use your design and i made the punch body out of some bronze that i had laying around, and all i was out was a $10 1/2" drill bit from Home Depot, got some fine tuning and tweaking to do, but this was my first run- i was able to chuck the punch in the lathe, and then wack the punch body with a rubber mallet... and like you said, you get a certain feel for how hard to hit it:
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PBGCPunchFormer_zps3e55fa36.jpg)
just waiting for my 10mm lubrisizer die to come in then i'll see how well they seat using my Lyman 45
I'm assuming you are making aluminum can gas checks?
yes, these are aluminum can gas checks for plain base boolits
Might be awhile.before I can post bullet pics. All my two cavity lee molds are at the condo. But my 6 cavity molds and handles appear to be in a box in storage. Not going to be able.gov cast until I track down handles.
found them in stock on Amazon for $17.00, Prime eligible. As a prime member I get free second day shipping. They are on the way. I should have them in plenty of time for next weekend. I will cast up 50 or so during my refining session.
Quote from: Caneman on April 06 2013 05:09:30 PM MDT
Success! it was just as you explained, the key was getting the correct roundness on the punch... i opted to use your design and i made the punch body out of some bronze that i had laying around, and all i was out was a $10 1/2" drill bit from Home Depot, got some fine tuning and tweaking to do, but this was my first run- i was able to chuck the punch in the lathe, and then wack the punch body with a rubber mallet... and like you said, you get a certain feel for how hard to hit it:
just waiting for my 10mm lubrisizer die to come in then i'll see how well they seat using my Lyman 45
Awesome! Those look about like mine. Please post some pics once you get them sized on some bullets!
you were right again, the pb checks were tearing in the lubrisizer die right with the die right out of the box... then i remembered that i needed to open up the mouth, so i chamfered the mouth in the lathe, opened up the die body and lapped the diameter about 0.001, then polished the die and it swaged them just fine then:
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PB1_zpsc1c59f7f.jpg)
here is a closer picture of the plain base gas checks, 3 on the left had no lubing (just a little sizing wax for the lubrisizer), 3 in the middle were lubed in the Lyman 45, and the 3 on the right were just tumble lubed after swaging the gas checks as you can faintly see a brownish haze on them (wanted to see if the gas checks come off if tumble lubed):
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PB2_zpsf0c0a0ee.jpg)
here is a closer picture of the punch, had to get the nose round enough, long enough, and the right end diameter so the checks would size right when swaged on the boolit, when i was satisfied that it was punching and forming properly i heated the tip until it just started to turn orange then quenched it in water:
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/PB3_zpsc12aab9f.jpg)
very satisfied with the results, still need to get to the range to see if leading is minimized... the checks are hard to peel of with your finger nail but you can do it eventually, they are not perfect but they are walmart grade usable and i expect them to help significantly with leading and also help some with accuracy... i can get about 50 gas checks with a 24 ounce aluminum can (maybe 1 out of 5 rejects) so they are easy to make and i was able to make about 50 in 10 minutes (for reference gas checks can cost upwards of $40 per 1000 so they aint cheap!)...
there are several home made designs for gas check makers, but what makes this design by Yondering different is that it punches and forms at the same time with a simple and cost effective design that is within reach of just about any boolit caster...
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 07 2013 10:53:50 AM MDT
found them in stock on Amazon for $17.00, Prime eligible. As a prime member I get free second day shipping. They are on the way. I should have them in plenty of time for next weekend. I will cast up 50 or so during my refining session.
I need handles, too. Amazon is listing them, with a 1-6 month shipping time. I've been watching them there for several weeks now. That means they are out of stock and backordered, just like everyone else (and Lee isn't shipping them until July). Personal Choice Outfitters (.com) has them in stock, with a 2 week backlog. Ordered 2 at $27 shipped, verified by phone, should be here any day. They return their calls if you have to voicemail. In the meanwhile, I've been using scavenged (retired) Lee 2 cavity mold handles for the Mihec 4 cavity molds (fit fine), and modified another to fit the 6 cavity molds. Just drilled holes at the end to fit the 6 cavity with a copper tubing bushing to keep them snug. You have to be careful, though, as they will "flip" when open, because there's nothing to stop them, when the holes at the very end. Heavier handles are a must for the 6 cavity molds, as shearing the sprew is a lot of stress on old, well-baked handles.
On a lighter note, it appears Lee has redesigned the 2 cavity molds (I got a couple for less used bullets). REAL alignment pins, and a reduced mass lower end. It seems the removal of the lower mass tends to make heat retention less sensitive with bigger bullets (.41+). Very smooth, so far.
I couldn't make all them aluminum gas checks! I would spent too much money drinking the beer for the cans!
Quote from: DM1906 on April 09 2013 01:00:31 AM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 07 2013 10:53:50 AM MDT
found them in stock on Amazon for $17.00, Prime eligible. As a prime member I get free second day shipping. They are on the way. I should have them in plenty of time for next weekend. I will cast up 50 or so during my refining session.
I need handles, too. Amazon is listing them, with a 1-6 month shipping time. I've been watching them there for several weeks now. That means they are out of stock and backordered, just like everyone else (and Lee isn't shipping them until July). Personal Choice Outfitters (.com) has them in stock, with a 2 week backlog. Ordered 2 at $27 shipped, verified by phone, should be here any day. They return their calls if you have to voicemail. In the meanwhile, I've been using scavenged (retired) Lee 2 cavity mold handles for the Mihec 4 cavity molds (fit fine), and modified another to fit the 6 cavity molds. Just drilled holes at the end to fit the 6 cavity with a copper tubing bushing to keep them snug. You have to be careful, though, as they will "flip" when open, because there's nothing to stop them, when the holes at the very end. Heavier handles are a must for the 6 cavity molds, as shearing the sprew is a lot of stress on old, well-baked handles.
On a lighter note, it appears Lee has redesigned the 2 cavity molds (I got a couple for less used bullets). REAL alignment pins, and a reduced mass lower end. It seems the removal of the lower mass tends to make heat retention less sensitive with bigger bullets (.41+). Very smooth, so far.
Man, I lucked out. $17.66 shipped, be here tomorrow. They are already on a UPS truck and I have the tracking number.
But, they aren't on Amazon's site anymore.
Quote from: Caneman on April 08 2013 08:28:57 PM MDT
you were right again, the pb checks were tearing in the lubrisizer die right with the die right out of the box... then i remembered that i needed to open up the mouth, so i chamfered the mouth in the lathe, opened up the die body and lapped the diameter about 0.001, then polished the die and it swaged them just fine then:
...
Lookin good!
My checks aren't perfect either (the checks from the PatMarlin die are pretty close to perfect though!), but I found it doesn't seem to matter if these thin checks get sized higher on one side than the other; as long as they don't cover the lube groove you're good.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 09 2013 08:27:31 AM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on April 09 2013 01:00:31 AM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 07 2013 10:53:50 AM MDT
found them in stock on Amazon for $17.00, Prime eligible. As a prime member I get free second day shipping. They are on the way. I should have them in plenty of time for next weekend. I will cast up 50 or so during my refining session.
I need handles, too. Amazon is listing them, with a 1-6 month shipping time. I've been watching them there for several weeks now. That means they are out of stock and backordered, just like everyone else (and Lee isn't shipping them until July). Personal Choice Outfitters (.com) has them in stock, with a 2 week backlog. Ordered 2 at $27 shipped, verified by phone, should be here any day. They return their calls if you have to voicemail. In the meanwhile, I've been using scavenged (retired) Lee 2 cavity mold handles for the Mihec 4 cavity molds (fit fine), and modified another to fit the 6 cavity molds. Just drilled holes at the end to fit the 6 cavity with a copper tubing bushing to keep them snug. You have to be careful, though, as they will "flip" when open, because there's nothing to stop them, when the holes at the very end. Heavier handles are a must for the 6 cavity molds, as shearing the sprew is a lot of stress on old, well-baked handles.
On a lighter note, it appears Lee has redesigned the 2 cavity molds (I got a couple for less used bullets). REAL alignment pins, and a reduced mass lower end. It seems the removal of the lower mass tends to make heat retention less sensitive with bigger bullets (.41+). Very smooth, so far.
Man, I lucked out. $17.66 shipped, be here tomorrow. They are already on a UPS truck and I have the tracking number.
But, they aren't on Amazon's site anymore.
That's great. I couldn't get them to commit on stock, and "ships in 1-6 months" wasn't good enough. I have so many backorders spread across the country, I can't hardly keep track of them.
Cast up just a few tonight.
Gonna have to work on my technique a little, and dig out my thermometer which is probably packed with my handles.
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/NOE_Rg2_HP.jpg)
Not only do I have to watch sprues smearing (not an issue tonight), but keep the mold cool enough the hollow point cavity doesn't tear. I am sure I got my lead too hot since I didn't have a thermometer and have't used this pot in forever. I had no idea where to set the dial.
Haven't weighed them yet either, but they look great, even though a a few from the end are a little frosty.
Is that the Mihec 200gr group buy bullet, or something from accurate molds? It looks just like the Mihec bullet, as do the WFN style that Caneman posted pics of on the previous page.
NOE RG 2.
Comes with pins for both 180 gr HP and 200 gr WFN. Haven't cast the WFN variant yet as I have plenty of 200 grain on hand.
looks good sql, your hps turned out better than mine after my first try... i got my PID setup on the Lee bottom pour so i should be able to get a more consistent temp now
Very Nice sqlbullet, Looks great! ;D
I have a question about lead and leading in the 10mm.
These are bullets from one of my molds. It is/was a Lee 175gr TC two cavity mold. It has been converted by Eric to a HP design. They drop at about 170gr with straight WW. I also have the same mold without the HP, they drop at about 180gr with straight WW. Velocity out of my 4 1/4 inch DW barrel is about 1200fps Chrony set at 12 feet.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/HPmold.jpg)
I size these with the Lee push through die and they come out at a consistent .401. I also tumble lube with Liquid A-lox and a splash of Mineral Spirits.
This is what came out of the barrel after 150 rounds. I used a Chore-Boy and captured all the lead and all the fouling on this paper towel.
Is this amount of lead acceptable or do I need to do something different to minimize it more.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/steve4102/leadinbarrel_zpsbf348c25.jpg)
Steve4102, Fine looking bullets BTW. It is hard to tell from the picture but most of that looks like carbon and soot, with a few specks of lead. If it is just those specks I'd say that is not too bad. You may want to try a different lube and or lube method, One that fills the lube groove completely. That should provide better lube protection for the entire barrel length, shot after shot.
I use the Star Sizer from Magma Engineering link; http://www.magmaengineering.com/component/banners/click/14/ (http://www.magmaengineering.com/component/banners/click/14/)
While these are a little expensive for the initial setup, the speed and results are great.
This unit size bullets nose first in a push-thru die and pumps the lube in the groove at the bottom of the stroke. The push pin pushes on the base of the bullet so the nose is not deformed.
I have used my RCBS Lubrimatic, and for my 44 HP's, but I made a nose punch that pushed the bullet from inside the Hollow Cavity to not deform the nose...
You're definitely getting some leading there, not terrible but enough to be bad for accuracy.
You need to fit the bullet to the bore, and use a decent lube. Have you slugged the bore? .401" is pretty much the standard 40 cal cast bullet size, but some barrels do run larger than that, especially in the throat/leade area, which is the most important for bullet fit.
I've never liked the Lee tumble lube for anything faster than light plinking loads. I'd say you're doing pretty well only getting that much leading at that velocity, so it's probably just the lube (or lack of). If you don't want to buy a luber-sizer, try pan lubing. You'll need to buy some decent lube (try TAC#1 from Randyrat on castboolits!), but can lube the bullets without any extra equipment, and still use the Lee sizer.
I have a jug of the 45/45/10 from White Lube, think that will help? I haven't had a chance to shoot any of the bullets lubed with the White Lube yet. Snow Snow and more snow, It's April for gawd sake, 10 inches every other week, >:(
IMO. that leading is not bad for a plain based boolit. One thing to think about as you increase pressures and velocity leading will increase.If you are going to stay with that load for most of your shooting I would not worry about changing anything, just clean after every shooting session.
Sean
Not bad at all. Like others have said, with a slightly larger bullet and different lube you might get to the highly sought after "shiny bore". But that isn't going to impact accuracy, so it doesn't count.
going out saturday to test out the plain base Al gas checks on the 200gr WFN, as i got moderate leading without the GC (looked like the picture above from steve, i scrubbed out the bore and that is what i got)...
also got a note from accurate molds that the 220gr WFN 2 banger is in the mail! if it comes friday i may be able to chrony it this weekend... will update later
steve: those cast boolits look awesome
range tested the plain base aluminum can gas checks... they stayed on when fired (they did not come off after leaving the barrel) and there was no leading after 50 rounds... worked perfectly... so with the 10mm I am going to have to add the gas checks to keep the barrel from leading...
were you able to do any accuracy testing?
accuracy was not the best, i could get most of them in a one foot square at 30' with the occasional flier, but i am not the best shot... found a load that wont lead, next step is to work on accuracy and go from there... the lead i have been using was range scrap and might be too soft, so next i want to water drop a batch of 50 and test those...
If it's range scrap from a range that shoots mostly jacketed bullets, then it most likely is a bit too soft, and may be close to pure lead in hardness. If it doesn't have enough of the right elements in the alloy (antimony, arsenic, etc) water dropping won't harden it. It's worth a try though, and if it doesn't work, you can buy antimony to mix in, to allow hardening.
^^^ the guy i buy the lead from had his ingots teasted and they are 11 BH, so maybe they got some of the good stuff in them where they will harden... i will just have to test it out and see- what fun :)
11 BHN....I bet they harden up to the mid-20's.
water dropped they went around 16 BH... this was measured with my hi tech testing equipment, lead pencils! will shoot them this weekend..
also got to cast some 220 gr WFN on the new accurate mold, will work up some loads with this as well
Pencils work very well.
After I posted that I wondered. It seems like isotope lead that I deal with quench hardens a bunch more than WW. I also drop from the mold pretty hot, which has a big impact as well.
Quote from: Caneman on April 24 2013 12:30:41 PM MDT
water dropped they went around 16 BH... this was measured with my hi tech testing equipment, lead pencils! will shoot them this weekend..
also got to cast some 220 gr WFN on the new accurate mold, will work up some loads with this as well
How do you do this?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils
Hey thanks, that's great.
Question.
What exactly does this mean?
QuoteTechnique is important. You can get some reallly bad values if you don't take care that the pencil lead is 'full wadcutter' in shape, with a sharp edge. If you use a pencil that has a cone shaped point, heaven only knows what you'll come up with
Round on the left is a full wadcutter:
(http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/fullwadcutter1.jpg)
so, exposed the pencil lead with a knife, but don't cut a point like you would for writing.
sharpen the pencil, then get a nail file emory board from the wife and sand down the point flat so that it has a nice sharp edge to it... then place that edge at a 45 degree angle on a flat part of the bullet and push it forward 1/4" or so... if the pencil makes a scrape mark then the pencil lead is harder than the bullet, if the lead just slides on top of the bullet then the bullet is harder... if you have a range lead pencils (6B through 6H) you can get an idea on how hard your lead material is...
My MM mould came today.
.402-230 gr lfngc , I just cast about 100 and they come out at .402-232 gr with my alloy . I sized 30 and will get them loaded and shot in my STI first this weekend, they look good , I will get a pic posted by Monday morning.
Sean
i was able to get out to my shooting spot early this morning and i wanted to test the water dropped 200gr lead and the new 220gr lead boolit...
1) Lead 200gr WFN, around 16 BH after water dropping, with plain base Al gas checks - all i can say is that these seemed much more accurate than the softer version (around 11 BH)... i was able to hit almost all shots on a 6" paper plate at 30', that is pretty good for me shooting free hand standing up... zero leading after swabbing out the barrel with "Ed's Red" (explained below)
2) load workup for the 220gr WFN from my new Accururate Mold, plain base, here is a comparison next to the 200gr:
(http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/10mmboolits_zps9a09ba2c.jpg)
5.3" comp barrel with the G20 using Longshot, air cooled lead about 11 BH, boolits dropped at around 223gr and .403 then sized to .402:
grains / avg fps / std fps / case head expansion
5.8 / 947 / 14 / 0.4257
6.1 / 992 / 17 / 0.4260
6.4 / 1030 / 6 / 0.4263
6.7 / 1065 / 9 / 0.4273
7.0 / 1075 / 4 / 0.4280
a really smooth shooting round... this is very similar to the 0.40SW in that when i started shooting the 40 i used the lighter bullets at 155gr thinking the recoil would be easier but it turned out to be too snappy... then when i shot the heavier 180gr bullet the .40SW smoothed out really well and was a nice shooting round... same with the 10mm, the heavier 220gr bullet smoothed out the recoil compared to 200gr and 180gr (not that it was really bad)... this was a pleasurable round to shoot, and now i need to work on accuracy and see how well it can group up... at the end there with the higher load the pressure started to increase and the gain in velocity started to flatten out...
3) last thing to report is an excellent all around gun cleaning fluid called "Ed's Red" as given in Fryxell's book... he mixes equal parts of automatic transmission fluid, Xylene, and MEK... just swab the barrel and it comes out clean... i was really impressed with this cleaner... will clean any metallic gun part, i mixed up a quart of this stuff and i am sure it will last many years...
CONTENTS: Ed's Red Bore Cleaner
1 part Dexron II, IIe or III ATF, GM Spec. D-20265 or later.
1 part Kerosene - deodorized, K1
1 part Aliphatic Mineral Spirits, Fed. Spec. TT-T-2981F, CAS
#64741-49-9, or may substitute "Stoddard Solvent", CAS #8052-41-3, or
equivalent, (aka "Varsol")
1 part Acetone, CAS #67-64-1.
(Optional up to 1 lb. of Lanolin, Anhydrous, USP per gallon, OK to
substitute Lanolin, Modified, Topical Lubricant, from the drug store)
http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=9
Ed's Red is awesome and cheap.
I mixed some up, then got about a quart of Hoppes #9 from a relative. I should be set for many years.