I am at a loss, not a veteran at reloading, but not an amateur. I bought a Kimber 10mm Kimber Eclipse, I have a mess of 45's I reload with 5 gr bullseye 230gr extreme copper plated round nose and can take out the bullseye when I shoot. I reload 10mm with longshot 180 gr extreme copper plated bullets, have tried starting at 8 gr going up in progression to 9.5 gr and throw the bullets all over, cannot get a decent group, can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong ?? The brass looks good, no sign of pressure, the .45's I don't really put a crimp on them, tried doing the same with the 10, also tried crimping to where you see a ring about 1/16" !! Did a lot of research on line and a large majority use longshot, I see blu dot is used quite a bit also, should I try a different powder ?? Hope someone could help me figure this out, thanks in advance frustrated
Welcome to the forum. You're probably not getting a good burn with LongShot at the lower end charges and probably exceeding the speed limit of most plated bullets with 9.5grs. I load .45acp almost exclusively with plated bullets, but 10mm is another animal. 10.4gr of BlueDot has produced a very accurate load with both plated and jacketed 180gr bullets for me. Many others here have confirmed the same experience.
Over crimping plated bullets is a recipe for problems. Breaking the plating while crimping will cause the plating to rip off as the bullet exits the case. Exceeding the speed limit of plated bullets can do basically the same thing. Accuracy will suffer greatly. RMR sells a fmj 180gr bullet for pretty reasonable prices. I would suggest trying those with your LongShot load development. The Zero bullets 180gr HP is a really good analog for Hornady XTPs, at a lower price, as well.
When I adjust my crimping die, especially when using plated bullets for 10mm, I don't use my calipers. I run my thumbnail down the case towards the case mouth. It's easy to feel when some of the flare from belling the case mouth is still there. Once it's gone, plunk test or confirm with calipers and start loading.
I hope this helps. Your Eclipse should be a very accurate gun. My TLE II 10mm is.
gypsy, welcome to the forum! Plated bullets (especially the thin plated bullets) can be difficult with the 10mm at higher velocities and pressures.
You may want to inspect you barrel for any build up if there is any. Graybeard covered most everything else with crimp being minimal at best.
Measure those plated bullets to insure they are in fact 0.4000". I would suggest using Blue Dot 10.2 to 10.4 grains, Power Pistol 8.2 to 8.4 grains or BE-86 with 7.8 to 8.0 grains.
Good luck with your quest and the plated bullets.
Real jacketed bullets can be a much better choice. Lead alloy can work well if they are sized properly and good lube or even with good polymer coatings.
Welcome gypsy!
I want to thank you guys for all your help, kinda figured it was the plated bullets, going to try the RMR 180 gr full metal jacket, and the blu dot powder next, just have to shoot up what I reloaded, or pull the bullets and start over, thanks for the info on the crimp also. The gun is fairly new maybe 600rds thru it. Oh yea by the way I'm using sig and some starline brass, whichever Cabelas in Hamburg has when I get out there. Again thanks, the 10mm seems to be an awesome round
You're welcome. BlueDot charges really need to be weighed individually as it meters poorly in a progressive machine. Power Pistol meters wonderfully in my Dillon progressive. I just finished loading up some 180gr Zero HPs and every round I pulled and weighed was 8.4gr, exactly what I was shooting for.
I knew Shadow would think of something I forgot, like measuring your bullet diameter. I always pull a dozen from a new batch and weigh them, as well.
Let us know how it works out ;)
I can confirm the issues with plated bullets. They can be very encouraging, and extremely frustrating. When I started using them in my G20 groups were fantastic, less than an inch at 30 yd. Then nothing under 10". There would always be one or two right at POA and the others were-sometimes lost. I tried some a few days ago with a moderate 9.0 gr load of Longshot. 3 shots were cloverleafed and the 4th cut off a fiberglass fencepost 2 feet left.
Im trying the Xtreme brand now and performance seems to be better and more consistent. Hoping this will pan out. Blue dot does seem to be the more consistent performer.
Evening rognp, if your desired use for this load is practice / range use, 10.4gr Blue Dot under a 180gr HAP, XTP, or other can produces some darn nice groups. If the intended use is for hunting / carry, BE-86 or other would be worth a look. Many dislike BD due to its serious muzzle flash, Lol..I kind of like it : )
Ken
Quote from: Graybeard on January 04 2020 02:43:45 PM MST
. BlueDot charges really need to be weighed individually as it meters poorly in a progressive machine.
Haven't found it to drop poorly unless you think .1+/- is poor...
I set my drop for 10.3 and get 10.2 to 10.4 which is great for me
Now 800x does meter poorly
Kenk, Ive been using BD at 11.4gr with 180 XTPs for hunting. The accuracy and velocity have been acceptable. The curiosity is that Ive yet to see the fire balls. May be the lot that Im using is still the old round paper can with the little spout. If I remember the biggest fireballs have been from Power Pistol or800X. Those only late in the day. It is entertainment.
One curious factor though is the best accuracy Im seeing, subjectively has been from Wolf LPP. I had a good quantity of them around from the BoBo years. They also gave great accuracy in a 45C- carbine and Redhawk, but with H110 they will squib and stick bullets in the Redhawk when tems are under 90*. LPP or LPM
Quote from: tommac919 on January 05 2020 08:18:05 AM MST
Quote from: Graybeard on January 04 2020 02:43:45 PM MST
. BlueDot charges really need to be weighed individually as it meters poorly in a progressive machine.
Haven't found it to drop poorly unless you think .1+/- is poor...
I set my drop for 10.3 and get 10.2 to 10.4 which is great for me
Now 800x does meter poorly
I use a Little Dandy powder measure and Ive found I can drop 800X to 0.1gr and most other powders to the same or better precision. It pays to experiment with the individual measure to fine tune your delivery process. Ive found that trying a specific number of "taps" of the rotor. This can settle the powder in the chamber and most often result in verystable repeatable charge weights.Even with cornflakes.
As an aside no one asked for is that I can fine tune delivery quantities even though the rotors have fixed chambers. I use plastic "plates" like miniature freeze plugs in the bottom of the chamber. The thickness can alter the volume and finer changes can be made by punching holes in the plastic plate. The number of "taps' you do with the rotor will alter the volume of powder as well. I find 3 taps seems to give the largest volume with excellent repeatability. As with any measure consistent operation is imperitive.
QuoteBlueDot charges really need to be weighed individually as it meters poorly in a progressive machine.
Probably so in a progressive press. I won't use a progressive for my own reasons but if you have an RCBS powder measure, they make a small pistol cylinder that many years ago came with the Combo measure. They still make the small cylinder, costs about 30 bucks. It's all I use in mine for pistol or rifle. It will throw Blue Dot on the money like water. It throws Unique dead on, ever time. Might consider looking into one if you own the RCBS Powder Measure. Sure saves a lot of time.
I currently use a Hornady powder measure for Blue Dot (much better opinions out there I'm sure) and is very close once set up correctly. At that point I add / subtract if necessary. The RCBS Powder Trickler 2 is a must for me, as I hand weigh / verify each rd. Individually with the digital scale. This may seem overly anal, but gets me match grade rd's every time
Ken
For other bullet suppliers, check out Zero Bullets and SNS Casting coated.
I have use both with Longshot powder, excellent results.
www.rozedist.com
www.snscasting.com
i have another question, I tried pulling some bullets with an rcbs bullet puller with the .40 collet, no dice very hard to get them out, VERY!! I read when you expand the case mouth to expand just enough so the bullet will sit, the bullets seat easily enough, the case does not show signs of buckling, now the question, should I flare the case mouth more ?? I made up some dummy bullets by backing off the crimp all the way, seated the bullet to 1.260, then backed the seater out and hand turned the crimp down without using the lever on the reloader, removed my barrel from the gun and they dropped in nice with no resistance, put the gun together and they cycled great. Should I flare the case mouth more ?? I ordered 1000 RMR 180 gr bullets, waiting on them, picking up the Blu Dot this weekend. Thanks in advance for any answers
I only use a kinetic bullet puller, so no experience with the RCBS.
As long as you are belling the case mouths enough that the bullets sit in place and are seating straight without damaging the bullet or brass, you're fine. Too much flare (belling) just shortens the life of your brass overworking it.
10mm brass has pretty thick sidewalls compared to lower pressure calibers, like .45acp. It always takes a lot more whacks with my kinetic puller for 10s. That case neck tension isn't a bad thing. If these are the plated bullets that you may have over crimped, you may have cut into the plating with your crimp and that will make them harder to pull.
Did you actually get one out? Can you see any damage?
I'd have to agree with Greybeard about over crimping. I have the kinetic puller and the RCBS collet type. The collet type set up correctly will remove the bullet easiest. If you can't get the bullet out with a collet type puller, something is wrong and over crimping is probably it. I would not expect any accuracy from any bullet, plated or not, that is crimped too much. Unless you're on a tight shooting budget, I'd just shoot what you have for trigger training time and don't expect any accuracy. You'll end up with good brass assuming you find it. If you just need to pull the bullets, the collet can be tightened down so hard on a bullet that it will pull it but it will destroy the bullet. I'm assuming something like a Rockchucker press.
I use the below puller and still requires a a few hard wacks. I do however use a 6 x 4 x 4 chunk of wood for this, an idea I received from Shadow or one of the other guys
Ken
RCBS Pow'r Pull Kit https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Y6YP4I/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_Aj8fEbGGTEHFC
OK about the case flair, you want the opening just enough for the bullet base to just fit inside with Jacketed...slightly more if using a cast bullet to prevent shaving bullet material off while seating.
It is wise to seat the bullets fully with no crimp being applied. Dies with a taper crimp need to be raised at least an 1/8" or slightly more to avoid the die closing the case back against the bullet as it is being seated. I use a 1/8" spacer ring under my RCBS seater/crimp locking ring to raise mine up.
Then I remove that spacer ring adjust the seater stem back out to apply the taper crimp to finish my rounds...You can place the seater stem down to where it touches the bullet's nose at the top of the stroke because the bullet is not going to move much or at all at this point! I like to see a slight shine on the very edge of the case mouth where it contacts the taper and it is being pushed back against the bullet... If you measure the very edge of the case mouth when finished you should see 0.4215" to 0.4225" depending on the brass and bullet actual sizes.
Now the Kinetic puller, I have an older RCBS with the aluminum shaft, I only smack it on a piece of 4" x 4" block that is 24" long as it stands up on the floor. When you strike the Kinetic puller against the block you will not want it to bounce. Think of a "Deadblow" hammer here. Observe you bullets movement and adjust the strike force to just have the bullet drop free and not splash the powder around. Also if you are pulling soft point bullets or other bullets that you DO NOT want to damage the noses, place a foam ear plug inside the puller to cushion the bullet as it drops out!
Insuring the inside of the puller is clean makes powder recovery much easier. As you remove the contents do so over a clean sheet of typing paper just incase some powder spills, I usually pour into my scale pan sitting in the middle of the typing paper...the finer powders love to get away... :o LOL
If you all have visited the pull down documentations you'll see I have pulled tons of bullets over the years here. Since 1978 I have actually worn out the original 3 jaw chuck doing bullet removals.
That's it for now have fun! :D
Thanks Shadow, I was pretty confident I got the 4x4 wood smack from you!
Ken