Opinions please.
http://www.gunclassifieds.com/blog/10mm-ballistic-gel-test-with-hornady-ammo/
Very nice documentation and article! 8)
Thank you very much sir.
Good job!
Nicely done! ;)
It was great and I loved the testing.
Stooping to nitpicking I would only add that it's not true any FBI agent had difficulty with recoil of the 10mm Auto rounds they were issued. Agents were only ever issued the FBI Lite load (180gr JHP subsonic) and were shooting it from a large heavy all steel platform (S&W M1076 which is 36 oz. empty, and 44 oz. loaded). Federal and S&W simply realized they could put an overall smaller package together that achieved the same ballistics in the same .400" caliber, but in a 9mm sized platform than a 45 Auto sized platform, so it only made sense in the long run.
Good article.
I would echo Redline though about the factual accuracy of the FBI timeline. The FBI lite load was developed in December of 1988, 13 months before the contract for 10mm guns was awarded to Smith and Wesson, 20 months before the first guns reached agents. The FBI lite load was also the load tested against 38, 9mm and 45 ACP. (reference (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf))
The reason for the download was concern about the Colt 1911 test guns standing up to the pressure of commercial ammo of the period. Sorry I can't find the reference for that. I read it a number of years ago in an article written by the FBI lab member who loaded the first FBI lite rounds.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 23 2013 09:38:14 PM MDTThe reason for the download was concern about the Colt 1911 test guns standing up to the pressure of commercial ammo of the period.
Not to take away from what you're saying, but to add to it; They were happy to download it to that level as it still allowed for adequate penetration and expansion. IOW, going subsonic didn't take away their penetration and expansion objectives.
Good to know on the 10mm Lite. I referenced a few books I had on that and verified that with what I found online. I appreciate the heads up. I will make the correction but can you enlighten me on why the FBI dropped the round. Thanks again.
I liked it. Well-written.
Quote from: Hunter on March 23 2013 10:02:29 PM MDT...but can you enlighten me on why the FBI dropped the round. Thanks again.
I don't have a reference to back this up. I understand that it was simply the tactical advantage of going to a lighter more compact platform (9mm Luger sized as opposed to 45 Auto sized) using a different newly developed round (40 S&W) that offered the same ballistics. The funny thing is felt recoil actually increased in the process. There's always give and take.
The reference I have, Combat Handgunnery 3rd Edition (chapter 9 page 102), written by the late Chuck Karwan, tells us the FBI had mechanical problems with their original 1076 pistols. They in turn dropped the 1076 and went with the Sig 226 in 9mm at the time.
While it is true the 10mm in it's heavy loading was never issued to FBI agents generally, the FBI did test the hot loads in the Smith and Wesson handguns and felt the recoil would be too much in the 1076 for general issue (same reference).
It is interesting to note that Chuck Karwan was a huge proponent of the 10mm. The above listed reference features a Gen 2 Glock 20 on the cover along with a spare mag loaded with Winchester Silvertips (probably the hot Silvertip version of the time period).
Edit: Here is the book: http://www.abebooks.com/Gun-Digest-Book-Combat-Handgunnery-3rd/1815915879/bd
I don't have a reference, but I have an opinion.
The 1076 is a big, heavy gun. Which agents didn't like carrying. And it didn't have a double stack round count. And more is better.
And, most mfg's were happy to embrace the 40 S&W which fit easily in their 9mm wonder-nine actions. The 10mm, not so much.
All this lead to agents asking for something different and mfg's pushing something different.
Nice article, thanks for sharing it with us. I really think the 10mm cartridge is enjoying a renaissance of sorts due, in large part, to articles like yours.
If you have the numbers available, could you let us know what the max and min expansion figures were for the fabric shots and bare gel? Did you get any expansion with the 200 gr through fabric? I think your results are roughly consistent with my own but several variables are different so I'm really interested in hearing your opinions on what might have caused the differences.
My own 10mm XTP tests: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4bt-Jy7IRR52mEXOacaT1GM-eitH-7C7 (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4bt-Jy7IRR52mEXOacaT1GM-eitH-7C7)
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
I don't have a reference, but I have an opinion.
The 1076 is a big, heavy gun. Which agents didn't like carrying. And it didn't have a double stack round count. And more is better.
And, most mfg's were happy to embrace the 40 S&W which fit easily in their 9mm wonder-nine actions. The 10mm, not so much.
All this lead to agents asking for something different and mfg's pushing something different.
i'm sure what you have as your opinion had a lot to do with the FBI's choice as well.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
And more is better.
Not if you hit what you aim at the FIRST time. Personal opinion here, don't take me too serious, but poor shots need big magazines.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 03:51:45 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
And more is better.
Not if you hit what you aim at the FIRST time. Personal opinion here, don't take me too serious, but poor shots need big magazines.
And good shots take advantage of big magazines.
Every year my family goes to South Dakota pheasant hunting. I've been with those who will frantically shoot 5 times at one bird and miss every time. Obviously, these people have bad/little/no training. My father and brother both have 8-round capacity semi-autos. They are proficient shooters and do not waste shells, they make every shot count. My shotgun is limited to 3 shells,
but if I had 5, 8, or 15 it wouldn't change my shooting technique. I would still shoot as if every shot was my only shot, except I wouldn't have to reload so often. When a lot of birds get up at once, there is no doubt that the bigger capacity is advantageous.
To each his own. :D
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
I don't have a reference, but I have an opinion.
The 1076 is a big, heavy gun. Which agents didn't like carrying. And it didn't have a double stack round count. And more is better.
And, most mfg's were happy to embrace the 40 S&W which fit easily in their 9mm wonder-nine actions. The 10mm, not so much.
All this lead to agents asking for something different and mfg's pushing something different.
That's a good point. Forgot that one. More ammo per mag with 40 S&W at the time. Did the G20 exist yet then? Can't remember.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 03:51:45 PM MDTNot if you hit what you aim at the FIRST time. Personal opinion here, don't take me too serious, but poor shots need big magazines.
I can fully respect your logic on an individual basis. I can't on a mass basis. Some FBI agents are probably expert shooters. Others, not so much. Plus, some people handle stress better than others. Anyway, when deciding on a platform and cartridge for a mass group, higher round count is probably better most of the time, especially when that mass group is all LE of some form or another.
If you've never been in a sustained firefight, you'll not have a real appreciation for capacity. 60 seconds is a lifetime (sometimes literally), which is about as long as most shootouts last. Even when all your fired rounds hit their mark, the BG doesn't always quit. High(er) capacity is an equallizer for unforseen circumstances, more than anything else. To "settle" for less, just because you think you're a good shot, is suicide.
that was a great article... you are a good writer, bro!
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 03:51:45 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
And more is better.
Not if you hit what you aim at the FIRST time. Personal opinion here, don't take me too serious, but poor shots need big magazines.
I do take accuracy seriously. But, as is pointed out by several noted authors in the current issue of American Handgunner, no one ever walked away from a gunfight upset because they had too much ammo.
Plenty of guys have died with empty guns in their hands though.
I most often carry a Para P16-40 converted to 10mm. I carry Triple K magazines that hold 17 rounds of 10mm, and I have one spare, plus one in the gun. With the +1 in the tube, that gives me 35 rounds before I am dry, and sometimes I think I should carry a second magazine.
Do I expect to ever be in a gun fight? No. Statistically I think I am clear of about anything having already been a hostage once in my life. But, statistics don't really work out like that on the personal level. And if I ever need to defend myself or family, there won't be any such thing as too much ammo. More is definitely better.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 26 2013 08:33:42 AM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 03:51:45 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
And more is better.
Not if you hit what you aim at the FIRST time. Personal opinion here, don't take me too serious, but poor shots need big magazines.
I do take accuracy seriously. But, as is pointed out by several noted authors in the current issue of American Handgunner, no one ever walked away from a gunfight upset because they had too much ammo.
Plenty of guys have died with empty guns in their hands though.
I most often carry a Para P16-40 converted to 10mm. I carry Triple K magazines that hold 17 rounds of 10mm, and I have one spare, plus one in the gun. With the +1 in the tube, that gives me 35 rounds before I am dry, and sometimes I think I should carry a second magazine.
Do I expect to ever be in a gun fight? No. Statistically I think I am clear of about anything having already been a hostage once in my life. But, statistics don't really work out like that on the personal level. And if I ever need to defend myself or family, there won't be any such thing as too much ammo. More is definitely better.
(http://www.thefunnyblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/awesome-internet-photos-cat-read-relevant-funny.jpg)
Please, tell me moar! What was involved with the conversion? How much did it cost? Is it easy enough for me to do myself? Can any competent gunsmith do it? Do I need to find one with lots of experience with 1911s, 10mm, and Para? I want all teh details.
Quote from: Caneman on March 26 2013 08:07:45 AM MDT
that was a great article... you are a good writer, bro!
Thank you very much sir, I really appreciate it.
I came to appreciate larger capacity magazines when I went from shooting matches from a 1911 to my G20.
Though I love my 1911 when engaging multiple targets and have to put 2 to 3 rounds on each target you appreciate not having to do 2 to 3 magazine changes per stage.
I can also see where this may translate to a real world defensive situation. I think back to the lady that was attacked in her attic and shot the intruder 5 times with a .38 Special and he survived.
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/danieldoherty/2013/01/05/woman-hiding-in-attic-shoots-intruder-5-times-to-protect-her-children-n1479445
I expect she would of opted for more rounds if given the choice. I have an old friend that says "I have never heard of someone complaining about having too many rounds after a gun fight".
Shot placement is indeed key, but there are so many factors that can affect shot placement and even with ideal placement there are other factors to consider such is how many people are you dealing with.
If confronted by 7 men who aim to do you harm I agree you are in a bad spot but would you rather have a 6 shot revolver or a 15 shot autoloader?
Quote from: Raggedyman on March 26 2013 10:43:56 AM MDT
Please, tell me moar! What was involved with the conversion? How much did it cost? Is it easy enough for me to do myself? Can any competent gunsmith do it? Do I need to find one with lots of experience with 1911s, 10mm, and Para? I want all teh details.
Very easy. Find a P16-40. Take to competent 1911 gunsmith and have barrel reamed.
I had mine done by Steve Morrison of Mars Guns. He did not have a 10mm reamer, so I had to bring my own. Total cost including purchase of the reamer was about $100.00. He charges $30 as I recall to ream.
I took him some of my handloads and he worked over the throat to be similar to my Witness 10mm's so I have pretty good ammo compatibility. I say pretty good because the Para doesn't like most bullet profiles loaded longer than 1.250" for some reason. My 200 grain WFN is fine, but others it seems to have issues with. All the factory ammo I have tried (Double Tap and Buffalo Bore) are shorter and feed just fine.
My P16-40 was something of a sows ear when I got her. Dinged and scratched, she had been being run hard as an competition gun:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/origRigh.jpg)
In addition to reaming for 10mm, I picked up a bunch of new magazines, as it came with one very worn out 16 round Mec-Gar and a Factory 10 round. I picked up another mec-gar and three Triple-K's cause they were cheap. To my surprise the Triple K mags work great and hold 17 rounds. I should have bought more since they aren't cheap anymore.
I ditched the dawson mag funnel and the ambi safety. I also replaced the stock trigger with an aluminum one and replaced the magazine release with a stainless one. I bead blasted the frame after quite a bit of file and sandpaper work getting dings out. And after working over the slide I sandblasted it with 80 grit AO, then sprayed it with Cerakote.
I also replaced the mainspring (hammer spring) with a 25 lb from Wolff, put in an EGW oversized (flatbottom) firing pin stop, and initially a 22 lb recoil spring. After a bunch of reading, I have put the 18 lb recoil spring back in. Research by Ned Christensen shows that the 25 lb mainspring + flat bottom firing pin stop slows the slide down during unlock to about 45 ACP velocities and power levels. No need to possibly abuse the frame with a heavy recoil spring.
I have a new rear sight that is not installed. It is pretty much just like the 10-8 performance low mount rear sight. Kinda like a Novak, but with a ledge for one-handed cocking. Once the P12 project is done I will send this slide off for a Novak cut and install the new sight.
Here she is right after that along with my P12 10mm CCO work in progress:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/theP_Pair.jpg)
I have a build thread on the P12 in the gunsmithing section. It is a much more involved conversion since the donor gun was 45 ACP. Whole new upper. Right now I am left with fitting the barrel to the slide (upper lugs) and to the frame (lissner cut and lower lugs). And I am growing chicken fat that I am going to ruin a $200 barrel learning what I am doing. ;)
edit--
Sorry, OP, I just realized this is a significant hi-jack of you thread. Please play through.
Quote from: Hunter on March 26 2013 03:57:16 PM MDT
Quote from: Caneman on March 26 2013 08:07:45 AM MDT
that was a great article... you are a good writer, bro!
If confronted by 7 men who aim to do you harm I agree you are in a bad spot but would you rather have a 6 shot revolver or a 15 shot autoloader?
The revolver will be fine. Just ask two of them to line up in a row and pull an Indiana Jones.
Nice! Thanks for the reply, and sorry for the derail, OP. If you can tolerate just a bit more, I'd like to know if the Para (and any other 10mm 1911) will need to shoot lighter loads like a Delta or if that issue is just confined to actual Deltas.
Quote from: Raggedyman on March 28 2013 09:46:19 AM MDT
Nice! Thanks for the reply, and sorry for the derail, OP. If you can tolerate just a bit more, I'd like to know if the Para (and any other 10mm 1911) will need to shoot lighter loads like a Delta or if that issue is just confined to actual Deltas.
No problem at all, we are all friends here. I am glad you liked the article.
The Colt Deltas had no problem with SAAMI spec 10mm Auto. In earlier pistols the web above the slide stop of the receiver would crack, once that piece was machined out of later models the problems were gone.
Quote from: Raggedyman on March 28 2013 09:46:19 AM MDT
Nice! Thanks for the reply, and sorry for the derail, OP. If you can tolerate just a bit more, I'd like to know if the Para (and any other 10mm 1911) will need to shoot lighter loads like a Delta or if that issue is just confined to actual Deltas.
Para ordnance guns have barrels with an integral feed ramp and corresponding cuts in the frames recoil block to make space for the ramp. With this configuration the chamber can offer "full support". Most other 10mm 1911's on the market have similar set-ups. Exceptions are Delta Elite's, and some, but not all, Dan Wesson and Fusion firearms.
The 1911 platform is as strong as any other 10mm for practical purposes. If you are talking 250K + round counts you might see a 1911 slide start to stretch and crack before a Glock slide.
Of course, you start talking about the cost of ammo for 250K rounds of 10mm, even with handloads using bullets cast from free lead, you are pretty easy at $10,000.00. IF you are shooting factory ammo, it will be ten times that high minimum. If you are worried about wearing out a 1911 with 10mm, put two cents in a jar for every round you reload or buy. When the slide cracks, there will be plenty of pennies to by a new one, along with a barrel, and have a good 1911 pistolsmith fit the whole thing for you. Or a whole new custom built 10mm from Nighthawk. And have money left over for a nice weekend getaway with the SO.
Cool, thanks.
Quote from: RMM on March 25 2013 04:31:43 PM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on March 25 2013 03:51:45 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 24 2013 06:54:53 PM MDT
And more is better.
Not if you hit what you aim at the FIRST time. Personal opinion here, don't take me too serious, but poor shots need big magazines.
And good shots take advantage of big magazines.
Every year my family goes to South Dakota pheasant hunting. I've been with those who will frantically shoot 5 times at one bird and miss every time. Obviously, these people have bad/little/no training. My father and brother both have 8-round capacity semi-autos. They are proficient shooters and do not waste shells, they make every shot count. My shotgun is limited to 3 shells, but if I had 5, 8, or 15 it wouldn't change my shooting technique. I would still shoot as if every shot was my only shot, except I wouldn't have to reload so often. When a lot of birds get up at once, there is no doubt that the bigger capacity is advantageous.
To each his own. :D
And smart people don't get into the situations where they NEED big mags! If you need more than 7-8, you shouldn't be shooting at in in the first place!
Again don't take me too personal....or even seriously at this point! ;D