sqlbullet You deserve a medal for this.

THANK YOU!

Hello Justin and welcome to the forum.

This is not desirable in handguns either.  I have seen this mostly in revolvers (mainly 45 caliber) just under the barrel threads where they screw into the frame but I have seen it in a few 1911 barrels as well.

While I have had moderate success fire lapping the choke point out of revolvers, with pistol barrels, the few times I've tried it, the improvements were slight at best.

I've gotten the best results with fitting a new match grade barrel.  Now, if you don't have the skills to properly fit an oversized match barrel, this can quickly get cost prohibitive as a new barrel alone can easily exceed 300 male deer.

There are several "drop in" replacement barrels.  I only have experience with KKM precision and can say nothing negative about them nor have I heard any from people I know and trust. If you wish to go this route, KKM is what I can recommend.

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Quote from: JBS27572 on April 15 2023 08:16:54 PM MDT
Thanks for the history.  Why does the Lyman reloading manual still warn against using the Ruger #1 loadings for Marlin 1895 guns?

For the same two reasons that no reloading manual recommends using Siamese / No. 1 45/70 data in the lever actions.  As I said above.

1. The pressure limits for the converted Mausers and the Ruger was set long ago at 50K C.U.P.  The pressure Limitations for the Marlin (and later the Contender and Henry) were set in the 1970's at 40K C.U.P.

2.  Much of the data developed for the No. 1 & Siamese Mauser use bullets designed for the 458 magnums and because of their shape and length, will not cycle through a Marlin or Henry lever action.

I also find the whole C.U.P. and the more modern PSI systems confusing.  40,000 C.U.P. is not the same as 40,000 PSI and there is no mathematical formula to convert one to the other.  It's just a weird gun thing like Dram equivalent or gauge.  Older cartridges use C.U.P. and modern ones use PSI.

<<<  Also the website for Marlin/Ruger says not to use +P loadings in new model 1895 guns (rather "it is not recommended").  Is this just a CYA on their part?>>>

I looked through the Marlin manual (both old on and the new one on line) and the new Marlin web site and only saw the standard warnings about not using reloads or hard pointy bullets in a tube magazine.  However I can believe the +P warning because +P just means Plus Pressure.   There is no SAAMI spec for 45/70 +P so I can also see this as a CYA thing.

Jeff

Hello JBS27572.  I think you getting confused by what I call the numbers game.  Let me give you a little history on the hot loaded 45/70's.

Back in the 1900's, Siam (now Thailand) contracted with Japan to produce 98 Mausers in an obscure 8X50Rmm (later 8X52mm Rimmed) cartridge.  Decades later, these rifles were imported into the US however, ammo didn't exist anymore.  American gunsmiths figured they could rebore or re-barrel these old rifles to 45/70 fairly easily.  They also figured out the Mauser action was much stronger than the old Trap Door Springfield and the first rifles capable of hot 45/70 loads were born.  Many old loading manuals had separate load data for the "45/70 Siamese" with max pressures set at 50,000 C.U.P.   
Later, Ruger came out with the No. 1 single shot and it also falls into this power category.   

In the 1970's Marlin came out with the 1895.  An updated and enlarged version of their 336 chambered in 45/70.  Marlin engineers knew their new creation was also stronger than the old Trap Door but none of the big three ammo companies would offer a hot loaded 45/70 for new rifle due to liability concerns.  Marlin teamed up with Remington and came up with a longer 44 magnum and the 444 Marlin was born.  However, handloaders noticed the 444 was loaded up to 40,000 C.U.P. and quickly started developing load data for the 45/70 also loaded up to the 1895 's 40,000 C.U.P. limit.  By the 1980's many reloading manuals now had three tires of load data.  The popularity of the 45/70 took off like never before and the 444 Marlin faded away to history.  Today, Marlin, T/C Contenders and the newer Henry's all share this same power level and can safely shoot what is now known as 45/70 +P.

In 2000 Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin and finally we had a factory cartridge that matched the power level handloaders have been enjoying in the 1895 Marlin for over 30 years.  However, also about this time several smaller ammo companies started loading the 45/70 +P Just for the Marlin and Henry's and the popularity grew even more.  IMO, It's due to factory ammo selection.  With 450 Marlin theirs two, maybe three choices all loaded up to max.  With 45/70, just about all the ammo companies offer something and at three power levels.  Cowboy loads, (an absolute joy to plink with) Standard pressure, (still nothing to scoff at but a little light for Africa) and the +P loads from Garret, Underwood, etc. These loads have been used successfully in Africa and I would not feel the least bit under gunned facing a Cape Buffalo with an 1895 Guide Gun stoked with some 430 gr. hard cast +P ammo.

A side note on "max power" 45/70 loads. 
While it's true the old Siamese Mauser and the Ruger Number One are very strong actions capable of 50,000 psi ammo, In the 45/70 you don't really gain much above the 40K Marlin loads due to powder capacity.  All the "Marlin only" 45/70 ammo I ever made had compressed powder charges.   The only real advantage these rifles have is the ability to use the 500-510gr bullets originally made for the 458 Win Mag.

So, IMO, if you thinking about one of the new 1895's or Henry Big Boy's I'd say go for it.

Jeff

Tripp Cobra mags are the only ones I know of.
Available from Dawson, https://dawsonprecision.com/magazine-for-10mm-10-rd-by-tripp-research/
or directly from Tripp.  https://www.trippresearchinc.com/10r-10mm-rg/

Hope this helps.

Jeff

Sweet!

Quote from: Wyocaddis on March 14 2023 11:22:09 AM MDT
Accuracy node seems to be about where?

I never really found an accuracy node with 180 gr bullets.  It shoots ok with 200 & 220 gr.  Not as good as Blue Dot or BE-86 but acceptable.

Jeff

Loading for velocity, YES
For accuracy, NO

My experience with it from a few years ago.  https://www.10mm-firearms.com/index.php?topic=4746.msg51667#msg51667

DISCLAIMER.  Hodgdon recently reduced the max load for Longshot and 180 gr bullets in the 10mm.  Today their max load is 8.2 gr (same as their 200 gr data) This was from the old data when the max load was 9.4 gr with an 180 gr XTP.

Jeff

I'm with you on that.
My final setup is:
EGW flat bottom firing pin stop
Wolff 26 lb mainspring
Wolff 20 lb recoil spring

With that, (and all the other things I did to it) I have a reliable 1911 that only flings brass 25-30 feet.

Not able to leave well enough alone, I ended up doing this to it: https://www.10mm-firearms.com/index.php?topic=10019.msg92180#msg92180

Now it's even more fun cause I don't worry about the brass.

Jeff

I had similar experience with mine.
https://www.10mm-firearms.com/index.php?topic=4565.msg49781#msg49781

Thank you for posting your results.

If I may weigh in, I have some experience on this topic starting about 30 years ago with the 45 Colt +P.  I had several 45 colts but only one Ruger (Bisley) capable of handling the +P loads.  I wanted to be able to tell at a glance what pressure level my ammo was loaded to, so I came up with the screwy idea of using trimmed down 454 Casull brass for my 45 Colt +P loads.  My brother just gave me several hundred Winchester 454 cases, so I trimmed down some to 45 Colt length and started testing.  In my tests, using the Remington 7 1/2 small rifle match primer, (that freedom arms recommends using in the 454) I was getting almost identical velocities compared to the Federal LPP 45 Colt brass.

When the lead free ammo started showing up over a decade ago, it was only available in 9mm, 40 S&W and 45 acp.  The magazine articles on the ammo back in the day stated they only developed a small pistol primer for some reason, but the compound they were using had a higher brisance but a lower flame temperature and shorter flame duration compared to the standard lead styphnate primers, leading to misfires.  Their solution was "much" larger flash holes and crimped primers.  In my tests back in the day, the 45 acp brass could be reloaded without issue.  (after removing the primer pocket crimp)  The powders I tested showed little to no difference in velocity.
The 9mm and 40 S&W brass was another story.  With the higher chamber pressures, primers blowing out of the cases were all to common.  I started throwing all that NT large flash hole brass in the scrap bucket.
They must be using a different lead free compound now as I haven't seen any of that large flash hole brass in a while.

I'm looking forward to testing the new SPP 10mm brass.  While I can't bring myself to buy any of the ammo to get the brass for testing, I figure it's only a matter of time before I find some at the range.  My testing will be limited to small pistol magnum primers and small rifle primers as I feel they will offer the best chance of duplicating the performance of the standard LPP brass.

Jeff

I've tested a lot of powders for 9mm.  Mostly mouse fart "gamer loads" for competition shooting in my M&P 9L or my AR-9 but also practice ammo that duplicates my carry ammo in my self defense guns.  Regardless, the things I look for in a powder are, Accuracy, clean burning, how well the powder goes through the powder measure on mu progressive press and finally, low muzzle flash.
The powders I've tested in 9mm can be broken down into two tiers.

Tier 1 - Lite target loads.  Mostly for USPSA production division using bullets from 124 gr to 160 gr weight.  These powders work well for how lite the loads are, around 125-130 Power Factor. 
Win WST
Win 244
VV N320


Tier 2 - Factory Duplication loads.  From bulk pack FMJ to JHP +P type loads.
Win WSF
Alliant BE-86
Hod.  HS-6
Win 231 / HP-38

I've used more WST and WSF than the rest combined.  WST for lite mouse fart loads, and WSF for the hotter stuff.  Theirs not much info on these now a days but I first tested them back in the 90's when they were introduced as replacements for the discontinued 452AA & 473AA.  I will probably be replacing WST with the new Win 244 once the last keg is gone but I have yet to find anything to match WSF for tier 2 type loads, but BE-86 is awfully close.

Jeff

Quote from: John A. on July 17 2022 08:57:01 AM MDT
Thank you very much for the reply fltbed. 

I don't necessarily have to push a bullet as hard as I can for me to like it either.  Though, I'm trying to get a complete pass through at the distances that I hunt because I lost a deer year before last because even though while it was a good hit, it was able to run much further than I would have ever suspected, crossed the property line into the state animal reserve, so my goal is to avoid that happening again if at all possible.

I'm sure I'm not the only guy that has ever lost a deer, but it still about made me sick because I'm not a wasteful type and had I known how it would've played out, I never would've even went that morning and I do not like not being able to find it and it losing its' life being wasted.

One of the reasons I think it made it as far as it did is that I only found about 4 drops of blood while tracking it in a place where it stopped for a minute.  So, I think the entrance wound sealed up.  And with no exit, means it leaked out in its' chest cavity.  I have no doubt that it died soon after from the way it was acting.  But, as I said, I'm just trying to squeeze all that I can out of whichever load that I narrow down the closer to season opening.

I hear you John.  The only time I lost a deer was with a JHP pistol bullet in a lever action rifle.  (although it was taken by the folks on the farm about a mile away)

Now, I will preface this by saying I have ZERO experience deer hunting with the 10mm.  (here in PA. we're not allowed to use autoloading pistols or rifles) 
However, I do have around three decades of hunting with revolvers Contenders and lever action PCC's in 357, 44 & 45 Colt.  From my experience, velocity has a little to do with penetration while bullet construction is almost everything.  JHP bullets designed to expand at pistol velocities tend to expand violently, like a varmint bullet, when pushed an extra 300-400 fps from a rifle.   We got the best performance from cast lead Kieth and LBT bullets.  (turns out old Elmer Kieth was right about those big meplat bullets after all)

Since we don't have rifle velocity to take advantage of that hydro-static shock, we need to rely on blood lost and as we all know, blood leaks out faster from two holes than one.  Wide meplat cast bullets tend to cut a clean hole through deer like using a drill.  It's hard to tell the entrance hole from the exit.

Now, not all jacketed bullets were useless in the PCC's & contenders.  Hornady use to make an excellent .357 180 gr flat point with two cannelures. (I think it was made for the 357 Maximum)  Sierra made a 44 cal 300 gr flat point that held together pretty well and Speer made a 45 cal 260 gr flat point that worked marvelous in my old 94 Trapper.  But they were the exceptions.

Velocity does affect penetration but not like you expect.  I ran some testing back in the early 2000's and was getting more penetration in my Flackler box from my 45 Colt using 280 gr LBT bullets at 950 fps versus 1200 fps.  A friend of my sons, who was going to engineering school, tried to explain to me the physics behind why.  After his 10 minute lecture, I told him, Yep...You hit the nail on the head.

So don't be overlooking those old school cast bullets.  They will get the job done.

Jeff

Hey John, congratulations on the BD score.

As many of us have said, that 10.4 gr load with almost any well made 180 gr bullet seems to be the accuracy magic load for every 10mm I've tried it in.  Personal favorites are the Xtreme Hollow point or the Star HP for killing paper or steel plates and the Hornady XTP for a hunting bullet.  (I load the 180 gr Star Hp with 10.2 gr exclusively in my 40 Deep Throat sudo wildcat)

I always say I load more for accuracy and if I need more power, I get a bigger caliber but I wasn't always.  Back in my teen years through my early 20's I went through what I call my Magnumitus phase when I tried to load everything I had to the absolute max velocity. I tested a lot of Blue Dot in 9mm, 45 acp, 38 spl / 357, etc.

Going through my notes, (and I kept notes only because Elmer Kieth said it was a good idea) I could only find two other loads where that "accuracy magic" happened.
The first was a 45 acp +P load using the old Speer 200 gr "flying ashtray" and the other was my affordable "lite magnum" 454 Casull load using the old 260 gr Speer flat point.  (still seems humorous calling a load pushing a 260 gr 45 caliber bullet 1450 fps lite but you have to keep in context the factory load was pushing a 260 gr bullet close to 2000 fps!)

Going back to 10mm, I never found another bullet weight where that accuracy magic happened.  With 135 & 155 gr bullets, Power Pistol was always more accurate.  With 200 & 220 gr bullets, #9 and sometimes Longshot were more accurate.
I recently got to chrono my 180gr, 10.4 gr loads in a 12" Mec-Tech CCU and was getting 1400 fps with 3" 50 yard groups.  Your 16" barrel should give you a bit more velocity and I would think adequate for hunting.

Jeff

Quote from: Kenk on June 15 2022 02:50:20 PM MDT
Thanks Jeff, will have Springfield just send be a few to have on hand. Have you had any other issues with that pistol? Mine has had 0 malfunctions in something like 1K rd?s, pretty impressive I think

The only other issues were:
1. The finish on the slide.  Mine was a pre Melonite and showed lots of wear.

2. Recall on the locking block.  SA claimed the recoil blocks were cracking on some high round count guns.  Mine had over 20K through it with no issues but I sent it back anyway.

3.  Finding standard capacity magazines.  Remember, this was back during the Clinton mag ban and the only way to get standard capacity mags was to modify Beretta 92 mags.   (thank God that's over with!)

I gave that XD9 to my son when I picked up a brand new S&W M&P 9L 5" for shooting USPSA.  (the 9L is a whole other story)
It had around 40K rounds through it and he's put a few more through it since then.

Hope this helps and enjoy your XD!

Jeff