Glad to see this resurrected here. I can't even imagine the amount of work this took to pull off. 

Steve

Good to know there is a fellow lefty around.  I have both LH and RH 578 Profit GLS models for my 4.6?.  I also have 6378-919 LH for M&P 45c which is ALS model.   It ?works? but isn?t the best fit.  But haven?t played with it at all yet.  It was a Christmas present from my son who works at an LGS and picks up LH holsters that he thinks I can use when the price is right during trade ins.

I?m looking for model number of a level Ii or III for both 4.6? 10mm and my M&P 40c 3 1/2?  w/ WML.   Got a SL TLR1 HL on 10mm and Inforce APLc?s on my 3.6? Compacts.  If you or anyone has known working holsters and models numbers, I?m all ears.

Steve

To answer the question straight up... yes  I finally broke a part inside my S&W model 60 J frame in 2017.  This gun was brand new in 1999 right after the swap to MIM parts.
  But I think someone above touched on something, I think it really depends on the part and original design.   I knew several old school LE guys that went through the revolver to polymer transition in LE.  These guys shot their revolvers a lot because it was their sidearm and had to practice and qualify with it.  Most will tell you a pre MIM S&W went from a 25K rd gun down to 5K gun when they went to MIM.  But these are the guys that still shoot their revolvers and ran them hard.
  But for a 1911 and MIM parts, I've personally never worked on one that I could blame on broken MIM parts.

Steve

  Only thing to expand on here that I would like to see isn't a direct 1 to 1 coralation between SPP and LPP and all else being equal.  But what is the max load for a SPP Be-86 load and what is the max for a LPP BE-5 load.   You are probably able to add more powder to the SPP load and possibly make up that difference in velocity loss when you know you are using a small brisance flame primer to begin with.  But will it maintain the same accuracy, etc?  I think this needs to be vetted out before we lable the SPP in 10mm the work of the devil.
  The reason I would like to see this is based on my experience in my past hobbies which was compting in 600 & 1000yd benchrest shooting for many years.  I had a 300 Win Mag Sendero that I was shooting and it shot so well with my hunting load that I decided to take my complete factory rifle and see what it would do at 1000yds for kicks and grins.
  First target out was 14" 5 shot group but the group was only 4-6" wide and the 14" was all up and down.  The load I was using was Fed215 (LRM), 72gr R22, Win Brass, 10gr Nosler BT and seated to just touch the lands.  This load was my hunting rounds so they were FL sized in Reading Type S dies using a .336 button.   So I knew I had to tune out the up/down which is typical for long range loads.   FYI:  This load would cut holes at 100yds shooting 5 shot groups.  The day I sold this rifle I shot two back to back 5 shot groups approx 10min apart.  First one was .520" and second group was .540".  The guy didn't believe me when i told him it was a 1/2 MOA gun.  Cash money on the spot when he saw those 2 groups.
  Back to the topic at hand: So I went back and started tuning.  I dropped back to a Fed210 primer and started bumping the load up and ended up shooting 75gr R22 using the Fed210 primer and 100yd groups were back shooting ragged holes again and velocity was right near the 3020fps I was getting with the 72gr load using Fed215.
  The last group I fired in competition using that new load was 7.4" 5 shot group and a 47 out of 50 score.  I was very happy using a factory gun, Leupold  4-12AO scope, and hunting bullets.
  I have done this when tuning other rifles also, so I have to wonder if using this same thought process, what will a SPP in 10mm give us?  Maybe the SPP is a blessing in disguise, or we run out of case volume and you can't get enough powder in there to make up the difference.  Or the accuracy go to hell in a handbasket.   But I think it worth pursuing.

I've got it on my to-do list.  But we got snow flurries today in NC so not the best weather for load testing right now.  And I dodn't think I have any SPP cases in my possession.

Just my loose thoughts,
Steve

Quote from: redial on November 04 2022 08:37:40 PM MDT
Ah ha! Thanks, sqlbullet. What I was leading up to was to ask what the engineering obstacles might be in such an outfit. The BCG matches up conveniently for this application but I'm sure there are other considerations of which I'm not aware. It seems that all the wizardry would be in fab'ing a 10mm barrel with the standard AR DI features. Could this just drop on a suitable (pistol magazine) lower?

Mark

It is a std BCG setup for DI but there are special milling on the bottom of the carrier for clearance and proper feeding using the pistol mags that is completely different than and DI AR15 using std 556 mags.
  I have a DI 10mm from Macon also.  I installed a Rubber City adjustable gas key and using the real heavy CMMG buffer I can run the heaviest loads without any case bulging now.   If I want to run std or light loads, I simply use an H3 or H buffer and not touch the adjustable gas key.
  All of that on a CMMG Banshee lower.   I?m a lefty and the severe case bulging was just to unnerving for me looking into the ejection port.   So Rudy built me a great DI upper and dropped it onto my CMMG lower.

Awesome weapon!
Steve

I worked on a 9mm PCC with the same issue.   It was a cheap brand and trigger group and worked for approx 1.5 yrs until the trigger group wore in/out and it turned into a full auto even with cheap FMJ 9mm rangevammo. Changing buffer weights, springs etc did not prevent the bump fire.
  Spent $69 and put a BCM PNT mil-spec in it with no other changes and my customer said it is running good after several hundred rounds and about 6 months of time.  When I installed the PNT trigger my trigger pull gauge said it was right at 6# 3oz and pretty crisp.
  The OEM trigger weighed in at 5# 7oz but it would bump fire almost on demand regardless of loose or very tight hold.

Be very careful of all that reciprocating weight in these PCC guns!

Steve

I usually use some spent casings that are odd that I can?t reload that have heavy ribbing so when you paint then orange, the paint doesn?t wear off down inside the ribs of the plastic hull.
  For weight, I used old spent shotgun primers and some small and large rifle/pistol primers to fill in the gaps and then use the wife?s hot glue gun to fill in the primer area and lock all the spent primers in place.  Apply the proper crimp and lock the crimp in place with a dab of hot glue again.

WARNING:  most of the paint will wear off!!  Except inside the ribbing of the plastic.  It?s your responsibility to train safely!   All live ammo in another room can?t be stressed enough.
This is the only way around the aluminum shavings of the zoom caps that I have found.  The hot glue where the old primer would be seated acts as a buffer for the firing pin and can be repaired when/if needed with more hot glue.  Trim off excess with a razor blade.

This works for me for many many hours of defensive shotgun training in my living room and the brass heads and plastic hulls show no signs of wear and no shavings!

Hope this helps,
Steve

 The pic Weldmeister posted above with the old and new mag spring and follower...  Notice the difference in the spring length.  I have a 4.6" model I bought on 12/16/21 (manf date on the box is 12/7/21) so its one of the first off the line models.  Have not has any issues with it from shooting soft S&B FMJ, (hot) Hornady Custom XTPs, to nuclear Federal HSTs.
  It doesn't really eject the brass to the other side of the county like my custom 1911 10mm does either.  Even with the hot HSTs rounds.  You need to bring the bushhog to retrieve the ejected brass from my 1911.  And make sure nobody is standing to your right side also even with a FFP stop, increased main spring, and 22# recoil spring.

Both factory mags that came with the 4.6" gun in December have mag springs that measure 6" long brand new the day I bought it.  I always measure mag spring length and record it for my own personal database of info.

Approximetly 1 month ago my local shop got in the first batch of 10mm mags for sale and I recieved a text saying they were in.  I bought 2 of them that day and tore them apart and measured them that day.  The S&W brand replacement mags had springs in them that measured 7" long now!!  That is 1" longer that the mag springs that came with the pistol.  Wire diameter and coil count remain the same.
  I bought some Wolff 45 springs to measure them for reference and they measure 6" OAL length.  Wire diameter tha same and 1 less large coil on bottom.  So even putting 45 springs in there probably isn't going to gain you anything.

  But in any event even though you can feel a definite difference when pushing down on the follower between the old 6" and new 7" long springs, I have not had any issues with either sets of mags yet in my gun.  So jsut an FYI:

Steve

Well, maybe not the answer OP was looking for, but at least we know now!

Glad I could help,
Steve

mope540,
  I used googles images search to search for similar images for approx 15-20mins and found only 1 hit.   Walmart actually uses that exact same image on their website to link to AK47 Stocks in the "Explore Related Products" at the bottom of this URL given.  But when you click that link... you get anything but Ak47 stocks.  So I came up empty.  But that adaptor does look to interface with an AK.

https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/forend-grips

Hope this helps you or someone else to eventually find what this stock really is.

Steve

Quote from: sstewart on August 25 2020 08:57:01 PM MDT
The Sig (Jaegerman ?) looks stoutest

sstewart,
  I researched a little and SIG claims their brass is made in house and not sub'd out.  Just going by the internet, so I can't say with 100% certainty.  But thier brass does measure up to be pretty darn stout.

  To test out the quality of the brass metallurgy, I think I might take the SIG, FC Heavy and FC Light in batches of 5 cases and just load them over and over at 1 given load and see what happens for case life and where case failures might start showing up.

Steve

OK.  Got the FC cases sectioned and pictures taken as well as more accurate weight data for you.

See picture IMG_4059.jpg for all 7 sectioned cases from left to right as they are displayed in the table below.  I updated the FC Hvy and FC Lght case avg as I used a full 10 cases for these results rather than the above numbers which were NOT bases on a full 10 cases (only for the FC numbers!)

This table is sort from left to right starting with the thickest wall dimension at .300" above the case head.  The reason for using .300" dimension is that is  where the case bulge starts (i.e. .. lack of chamber support is right at this junction)

Case Brands                        
SIG          CBC          FC(Heavy) FC (light)   S&B          Starline    Hornady      
75.1         76.6         78.3           71.7         72.3         71.6        69.9           = Avg wgt of 10 cases (gr)   
0.0100     0.0100      0.0100       0.0100     0.0095      0.0090    0.0100   = Neck wall thickness   
0.0330     0.0330      0.0320       0.0280     0.0275      0.0270    0.0265   = Wall Thickness at .300" above case head/bolt face   
0.5520     0.5460      0.6580       0.5360     0.4810      0.5360    0.5100   = Distance from case head to end of taper   
0.1590     0.1770      0.1920       0.1620     0.1690      0.1650    0.1660   = Thickness of case head webbing   
0.0445     0.0400      0.0360       0.0360     0.0350      0.0350    0.0340   = case wall thickness at base of taper

Also included is a picture called FC_case heads.jpg.  This shows 4 cases each with the different head stamps.   The 4 head stamps on the left to where the characters are not as deep and seem to be a little wider overall are the heavier weighing cases.  The 4 case head stamps on the right to where the characters are embossed much deeper and are not as wide are the lighter weighing cases without exception.  Just an FYI for everyone.

Steve 



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Got some more data fellas.  I read earlier in this thread (possibly a different thread) about CMMG recommending Hornady brass to help with case bulge.  So I have to know so I sectioned 6 different case today with the data collected below.  See the included image also of 5 or those 6 cases for you own visual reference to go by.

In the attached pic the cases by brand from left to right are: 
FC(Heavy), Starline, S&B, Hornady, SIG.


The reason for the FC heavy is that of the FC cases I have which are from the late 80's "FBI" load vintage.  There is 2 distinct lots in this brass.  One headstamp where the FC is smaller and embossed much deeper in the brass weighs a lot lighter.  The more shallow and larger sized FC weight much more.  I will get one of the FC light cases sectioned and compare to the heavy lot# and post back.  Will also get pics of the CBC sectioned case.

Case Brands                           
SIG       CBC        S&B           Speer  Starline  Hornady  FC (light) FC(Heavy)  LAX
75.1      76.6        72.3           68.0    71.6        69.9         71.6          78.3            75.6           = Avg wgt of 10 cases (gr)
0.0100   0.0100   0.0095                   0.0090    0.0100                      0.0100                         = Neck wall thickness
0.0330   0.0330   0.0275                   0.0270    0.0265                      0.0320                         = Wall Thickness at .300" above case head/bolt face
0.5520   0.5460   0.4810                   0.5360    0.5100                      0.6580                         = Distance from case head to end of taper
0.1590   0.1770   0.1690                   0.1650    0.1660                      0.1920                         = Thickness of case head webbing
                           
Speer 200gr Gold Dots = .435" case bulge


Will post more data when I get it.  But judging by these raw dimensions, the Hornady bass doesn't appear to be only stout sort of speaking.  Granted these measurements don't prove anything about the metallurgy of the brass itself.  But its still interesting none the less.   My experience with Hornady brass with 2 different bottleneck rifles cartridges is that it is really hard and too brittle.   Have gotten splits up the side of the body and necks on 30-06 and 243 brass on more than 1 occasion sometimes on the first reload (obviously 2nd firing after factory).

Hope this helps,
Steve

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Quote from: Muskrat on August 24 2020 07:22:31 PM MDT
Good stuff Steve!

At this point I don't even consider brass bulged unless I can see the bulge before I pick it up. As long as they'll fit through the resizer without stripping off a ring of material, I consider them good to reload.

In my experience Blue Dot gets more accurate towards the top end, not really coming into its own until about 10.4~10.6 grains with a 180 grain bullet. Blue Dot has provided some of the most accurate loads I've ever worked up in 10mm.

I was getting pretty concerned with brass bulge...Underwood loads and Federal Trophy Bonded bulge like crazy...but I've yet to have one come apart. I think the heavy buffer is a reasonable safety precaution when shooting those loads. I haven't heard of any rupturing in the Banshee, but I have heard of them tearing in half and leaving part of the case in the chamber.

I've not seen any big discrepancy in accuracy between a cold and hot barrel, but every gun is different.

I'm building a 1911 10mm using an original Colt Delta Elite slide fitted to an oversized Les Baer frame.  Did all the filing and fitting myself.  The gun is functional right now but still have more mechanical work to do and a lot of small cosmetic work.  Then I'll get some reloads run through that and will concentrate on heavier BD loads as suggested.

I think I am going to transfer my Leupold scope over for some repeatable accuracy testing for now.  And also do some heat tests to see how much influence heat my have on chamber pressure and bulging and also affecting accuracy.  If I find it does walk, I'll tear it down and go through it and see what if anything can be done to improve this.

Hopefully we can get a good database of info built up here by comparing notes using several guns.

Steve

Well fellas I had a chance to run some reloads through my Banshee and record velocity, case bulge diameter, and accuracy to start a little database of info here to see if we can find that sweet spot for each bullet weight to where the case bulging just gets to be a bit much in our guns.
I tested Longshot, 800x, Blue Dot, and BE-86.  Started with starting level loads and stepped up to .3 increase from starting to see where we stood before going any higher.  Also fired some factory rounds for accuracy and testing case bulge.  Here is a quick rundown of my range testing:

Pistol: CMMG Banshee Mk10 300
Sights: Midwest Industries base mount and Trijicon MRO 2MOA RD sight
Range:  All accuary tests below were shot at 25yds except for the last 2 factory loads were shot at 100yds for POI testing.

Cases: FC  (All cases were from an original batch of "FBI" loads from years ago)
Primer: Win WLP
Bullet: 180gr CMJ Hollowpoint
COAL: 1.252"

Factory: 180gr SIG Performance Elite for initial sight in and shot a 3 shot group.  These were the first rounds from a completely cold weapon on a hot NC day.  90F and probably 70% humidity.

Velocity: Avg=1241fps  1156,1259,1271,1262, & 1259
Accuracy: 1/2 to 5/8" 3 shot group.
Case Bulge Diameter: didn't record it but visual inspection when picking up brass didn't give any excessive alarms.


BE-86:
==========
Wgt: 7.7gr
Velocity: Avg=1265  1277,1273,1275,1270,1229
Accuracy: .688" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .4305"

Wgt: 8.0gr
Velocity: Avg=1271  1268,1257,1270,1273,1287
Accuracy: 1.120" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .4315"

LongShot:
==========
Wgt: 8.5gr
Velocity: Avg=1176   1181,1169,1197,1162,1172
Accuracy: 1.430" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .430"

Wgt: 8.8gr
Velocity: Avg=1241  1217,1244,1246,1237,1263
Accuracy: 1.170" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .431"

800X:
==========
Wgt: 8.5gr
Velocity: Avg=1267  1252,1266,1331,1268,1218
Accuracy: 1.250" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .430"

Wgt: 8.8gr
Velocity: Avg=1326  1319,1338,1337,1315,1321
Accuracy: 1.040" for all 5 shots  (1 loose shot, 4 shots =.700"
Case Bulge Diameter: .432"

Blue Dot:
==========
Wgt: 9.8gr
Velocity: Avg=1134  1163,1132,1136,1106,1131
Accuracy: 1.530" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .4305"

Wgt: 10.2gr
Velocity: Avg=1175  1173,1197,1162,1180,1164
Accuracy: 1.750" for all 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter: .431"

Hornady Custom 180gr XTP Factory
100yd POI testing
4" high at 100yds from 25yd zero of SIG 180gr Elite ammo.  So this is hotter than the SIG stuff
Accuracy:  3 3/8" 5 shots
Case Bulge Diameter:  .440 to .454"!!!!!   these cases were scary to pickup and look at

SIG Performance Elite 180gr FMJ Factory
100yd POI testing
Dead on at 100yds from 25yd zero of this ammo.
Accuracy: 9 1/4" 5 shots (9 1/4" wide and 2 1/4" tall)
Case Bulge Diameter: .435"

These rounds were fired in this order and the gun wasn't cooled off or nothing between groups.  So by the time I got to the 100yd impact testing the weapon was very hot to the touch.  I wonder if the Hornady 180gr XTP factory loads would bulge that much if fired in a completely cold weapon?  Future experiment there.  I didn't have velocity numbers for the 100yd testing because I had to swing over for the 100yd burm and didn't move my chrono over and set it back up.

Hope this helps.  Will post more data as I shoot this thing more.  BE-86 right now is giving we very good raw accuracy.  But the heavier 800X charge just might be telling me something.  Blue Dot isn't even in the ballpark.  Plus I don't know the characteristics of this gun yet to know if it starts walking when hot, how this RD MRO sight is for repeatability etc.  I might transfer the 1.25-4x Leupold scope from my AR over to this platform for some better accuracy testing.

Steve