Yes I overstated the Hi-Power similarity. The barrel lock-up is similar and I think that lends itself to less barrel rotation compared to the more modern and simpler barrel lock-up pistol. Better accuracy?And it, like the CZ design, is significantly different than the 1911 designs. I was trying to draw that fundamental difference when comparing Tanfoglio to the Dan Wesson, Kimber, Colt, RIA, Para, etc models. Tanfoglio is not a 1911 design and that includes Tanfoglio being a double stack magazine for greater capacity.

Thanks for helping me clarify that.

Take look at the Tanfoglio line that EAA imports. I think they offer more 10mm firearm models than the rest of the industry combined. These pistols are based on the time proven CZ pistol design, and from what I understand is based on the Browning High Power. And their full size frame carries 14 rounds in the Mec-Gar magazines, readily available at reasonable prices. Most of those others, especially 1911 based, offer only single stack 8 or so.

I have 2 Tanfoglio steel framed models including the 6 inch Witness Hunter (under $1,000). That is a fantastic shooting gun but big because of 6 inch barrel and heavy being all steel (a good thing for 10mm). I also have a Full Size steel Witness (~$500) which I used as a starter 10mm to see if I wanted to get into that caliber. Also a great shooting pistol. If I were to start fresh again I would go for the Witness Elite Match right from the start. Adjustable sights and lighter trigger are a bonus.

While Glock is popular my opinion and (limited) experience is the polymer frame and polymer trigger has nasty vibration and recoil when shooting powerful/max loads. The pistol is OK for lighter and standard factory load ammo. Steel smooths it all out, which really helps with enjoyment of shooting lots of high powered 10mm. Glock may offer lots of aftermarket upgrades but with Tanfoglio Witness you don't need any of that except a stiffer recoil spring for max loads and, of course, more magazines. My shooting buddy's $600 Glock is now an over $1,000 Glock with all the upgrades, but is still polymer frame.

Yes, thanks for the good thoughts. I have always rationalized that the handbook data has been demonstrated safe by the testers and publishers. I do have 4 manuals and use data from the powder and/or bullet manufacturers in addition to those. And never go over max published loads. This 14.9 grain AAC #9 with 180 HAP bullets is the one that I have trouble with. Maybe its from my limited experience with 10mm power. But check out the (theoretical) calculations from QuickLOAD. Massive chamber pressures. Primers loose a lot of their edge radius but don't look too severely flattened and never leak or rupture. Not using a Glock so no case bulge. Occasional split case but rather rare.

What is the best gun to hold up to this load day in and day out? Sig P220 looks incredibly robust.


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Thanks for those tips and reminders.

I have used Accurate #9 a lot (along with Longshot and Power Pistol) and find it works amazingly well for the 180 grain 10mm. But when I run it at 14.9grains as Hornady's manual suggests it is incredibly fast and powerful. I get some occasional feed issues and tremendous vibration. Velocities averaging 1440 fps equating to energy of 830 ft-lbs with a 6 inch barrel. Sounds, looks, and feels like too much. To your point of velocities way above published as an indicator. So I have backed off out of fear of me and the gun getting damaged. But then I read about people going over 15 grains?!?!?!

I don't have enough experience or knowledge to sort this out with full clarity. Hence I asked my question. What does one define "safe"?

How do you determine the 1380+fps with a 175gn bullet from a 6 inch barrel is "safe"? That is around 740 ft-lbs, lots of power for sure.

I did a rough measurement on the ejection distance. Before it was up to 15 yards! Hard to keep track of spent brass with that, especially outdoors. At an indoor range the ricochets were so powerful the brass would bounce and roll all over the place, sometimes to 6 lanes away. After trimming the ejector the brass would land within about 8 yards and take a lower flight path. At some point I may trim even further but I presume if trimmed enough, especially with less powerful loads leading to a slower moving slide, I may not see adequate ejection. But the ejector can be replaced, it just costs.

That is with either Accurate #9 at 14.9 gr (Hornady Manual max load - but insanely powerful) or Longshot at 9.5 grain,s all with a 180 grain HAP bullet.

On the topic of Accurate #9 14.9 grains for 180 grain bullet. I was getting 1440 fps (830 ft-lbs energy) with a 6 inch barrel and COAL = 1.260 inch. Violent vibration and feed problems even in a steel frame gun. A Glock 20 was intolerable to hold and shoot. QuickLOAD calculates 75,000 psi chamber pressure for that load which qualifies for insane but explains the aesthetic observations and high velocity. I have since backed off to 12.5 grains Acc #9 which yields 1277 fps (653ft-lbs energy) in the same gun. I have seen people post 15 grains of Acc #9 loads. I wish I could explain that.

I have not found heavier recoil spring to help much with the launch distance of the ejected 10mm case. However, for my EAA pistols I have found shortening the length of the ejector makes a big difference.

My theory is case ejection distance is a velocity issue. So having the ejector hit the brass closer to the end of the slide stroke means the brass and slide are moving slower when the brass contacts the tip of the ejector. I would walk up to it slowly if you want to try it but I took 3mm off my full size steel and 2mm off the Hunter. The launch trajectory is lower and distance is reduced. FYI I use a 20#/in spring in the full size and an 18#/in spring in the Hunter. My current loads for them are in the 650-700 ft-lbs energy with 180 grain bullets.

I have come to like the performance and power versatility of Accurate #9 and Longshot for the 10mm.

What is your velocity with Blue Dot 9.6gr, 180 gr XTP? It looks like a pretty light load.

I tried 10.7 gr Blue Dot with 180gr HAP bullet and only read 1173fps with a 4.5 inch barrel. 9.5 grain was only 1039fps.

I am still learning about 10mm and trying to figure out good reloads with quite limited reload information available and essentially no local knowledge. 10mm is amazingly accurate and hugely powerful, so I love it. But you really have to dig deep to get good info compared to 9mm, etc

My experience with my 10mm pistols is, to no surprise, that 10mm can be an amazingly powerful round that a semi-auto can have trouble handling. With 180gr Hornady HAP/XTP bullets I have found that once I hit 1300fps or 700ft-lbs of energy feed problems and harsh recoil crop up. That is based on 2 full steel pistols and a polymer frame. Heavier recoil springs can help but you may start to beat up the gun in both directions, so my gunsmith tells me.

Hornady lists 14.9 grains of Accurate #9 for max load. That is one hot load and I have not been successful getting 100% feed reliability from the pistols and it creates very harsh vibration. Almost intolerable on a polymer frame. Predictive data from QuickLOAD suggest excessively high chamber pressure which could explain the harsh vibrations felt.

I have backed off to 12.5 grains Accurate #9 and everything cycles smoothly with great accuracy. Same for Longshot at 9.5gr and Power Pistol at 9.2 grains, all with the 180gr Hornady HAP bullets. These all yield 650-700 ft-lbs of energy and shoot extremely well. I wish I knew this when I was starting out.