killed my chronograph not too long ago... happens to the best of us.

-matt

went shooting out in the woods today with my dad. we were shooting steel swingers with concrete bases along with some paper targets posted up on an old dead tree.

our pistol selection was pretty good:
- Kahr CM9
- Glock 20 gen 3
- Norinco T54
- Ruger LCP
- Glock 19 gen 4
- Springfield GI 1911
- Freedom Arms M97

the first three on the list were mine with the others belonging to my dad. after shooting everything except the 10mm at the swingers my dad was feeling pretty good because nothing else seemed to hammer the swingers better then his 45 auto and even I will admit those heavy +p loads hit the swingers hard enough to practically tip them over despite having 15+ pounds of concrete for a base. however, it was Mr. 10mm's time to shine so I handed my dad the G20 and told him to give it a try. he lined the sights up and squeezed the trigger only to see the heavy steel/concrete target spin so violently that it ended up falling over. his second and third shot managed to knock over the other two swingers and even destroyed one of the concrete bases (bullet deflected down into the base). after his brief shooting session I had to explain this mystical super cartridge to him and why it was so devastating to steel targets... short answer: 200gr .400" bullet at 1250fps.

on the drive home he tells me "my next pistol is going to be a 10mm". 

-matt

took my G20SF to the range today, this time with the factory recoil assembly. didn't have much ammunition but it fed threw two 15rnd mags without issue.

did some playing around with a chronograph and managed to get decent velocity (around 1200fps) with the 200gr Rainier RNFP over 13gr of AA#9 (warning: over max load). accuracy was decent but will play around a bit more to see if it can be improved. I found velocities to be quite unstable with heavier loads using the factory recoil assembly where they were much more consistent with the 22lb spring. I can only assume some of the heavier loads to be leaving the chamber a little too soon.

side note: I made a new friend at the range, another guy had an older gen 3 G20 (pre SF). he posted up next to me and we had no shortage of things to talk about. at the end of the range trip he let me keep all his once fired brass (Sig Sauer, Remington, and S&B) and said he didn't hand load yet  . we swapped contact info and I will be directing him to this forum.

-matt

Quote from: LoadedToFullPotato on April 26 2017 05:03:55 PM MDT
Wow thanks for the links! So in relation to bonded ammo, let's say the bullet holds together after the first bone, then opens up as it hits soft tissue, will the expanded bullet have enough energy to punch thru the second bone?  I can see it work in a bone -> tissue scenario but what about bone -> tissue -> bone?

It seems most are capable of 15-18 inch penetration in ballistic gel when expanded

hard to say what will happen in bone/tissue/bone because you have a lot of variables going on there. as the others have said, the hard cast flat nosed will penetrate the best. the expanding bullets will do more damage then the hard cast flat nose but might not always pass threw especially on quartering shots, frontal shots, and Texas heart shots.

if I was going to shoot a pig with my 10mm I would use either the 180gr SP or the 200gr JHP. however I do not pistol hunt (ive always used a rifle) and others here will have more experience in that department then me.

-matt

ive been warned not to use PPU brass by many hear and did some research and found some old posts with people having trouble. this prompted me to ask PPU if any thing has been done to address the issues mentioned. well its been a few weeks since I sent them an email but they finally got back to me a moment ago.

here is my email to them:

Quoteyour "10mm AUTO" brass has a very bad reputation on the online forums. however I am noticing many of the posts are 2-3 years old. has Prvi Partizan done anything to improve this brass in the last few years to solve these issues?
here is a good example of a post on issues people have had: http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/10mm-reloaders-do-not-use-ppu-brass!!!/
it seems the problem was the brass was not taking to sizing or crimping. one member found that annealing helped with the issue.
please get back to me on this issue, I have a bunch of your 10mm auto brass and need to know if its safe to use.

thank you
-Matt

now here is PPU's response:

QuoteDear Mr.,

Thank you for contacting our company, and for very useful information and suggestion, also.

We wish to inform you that we made a reconstruction of the mentioned brass in the last few years.
After more analysis and improvement, on our complete testing, this brass had good results.
If you doubt the quality of brass that you have, you can send us the lot number, so that we can determine the year of production.

Thank you, once again, for the information that you submit.

Best regards

PPU Team
Prvi Partizan A.D.

I wonder if they have really solved the issue? I recently got my hands on some once fired PPU brass and while it does seem less malleable then other brands, I have not had any issues with it holding a crimp.

figured id share this with everyone.

-matt

I'm not associated with the seller, ive just bought from him before. the brass was clean and 100% of my cases were in useable condition. he usually includes an extra 10% and then some so you will likely get 2200+ cases.

here is the ad: http://www.gunbroker.com/item/640595909

-matt

here are some full power hard cast loads that should work very well:

hard cast 200gr: https://underwoodammo.com/shop/10mm-auto-200-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/

not sure if they will yield a pass through but I imagine these would put down a pig pretty well (see below):

200gr XTP: https://underwoodammo.com/shop/10mm-auto-200-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point/

180gr gold dot: https://underwoodammo.com/shop/10mm-auto-180-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point/

180gr bonded soft point: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/127997/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-10mm-auto-180-grain-trophy-bonded-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20

-matt

thanks for the replies. ive got a 20lb spring on the way, but will test the stock spring this weekend to see if there is any issue.

-matt

I understand the need to be careful (some people don't have common sense). I typically add a "lawyer be gone" warning to my posts when discussing over-book loads.

but if we strictly went by the modern books then the 10mm isn't even able to reach its original weight/speed of 200gr at 1200fps. I have just about every current loading manual in my collection and none of them give you over 1150fps from a 5" barrel using a 200gr bullet. so either powder has gotten worse since the cartridge was invented or the load data is incorrect. another suspicion of mine is that these companies intentionally download their loading data to encourage purchasing of factory ammunition (many factory loads for other cartridges are hotter then the data shows possible).

-matt

the 24lb spring just made the issue worse, tons of failures to feed with the warm 10mm loads. funny, there was no issue feeding Winchester factory 40 S&W though.

think I'm going to buy a 20lb Wolff spring and see if this fixes the issue.

note: 10gr of blue dot under the 200gr Rainier plated bullets gave very bad accuracy. however the cartridges served their purpose of testing reliability.

-matt

Quote from: sqlbullet on April 20 2017 08:47:56 AM MDT
--Mod hat on--
Keep in mind that 8.9 grains of the Alliant max for 200 grain Blue Dot loads.  Anyone who see's this should carefully consult reloading manuals, start low and work up carefully
--Mod hat off--

Also, if 10.2 grains gave 1200 fps with a 208 grain cast bullet, then I would expect a 200 grain plated bullet in the same gun to be slower.  There are two big reason.  More initial volume means less initial pressure, and a 200 grain plated bullet will not seal the bore as well as the cast bullet will, also resulting in lower pressure.

funny, Hornady claims max load is 9.4gr of Blue Dot under their 200gr bullet and Nosler claims 9.3gr of Blue Dot under their 200gr bullet. Alliant must have stricter lawyers Hornady and Nosler.

-matt

I could see DT and Underwood having pressure issues in a tight barrel but I have a hard time seeing PPU having issues unless the barrel is REALLY tight.

you say the primers in the cases that still have primers look fine? no pressure signs?

did you perhaps decap them and simply forget?

-matt

Quote from: The_Shadow on April 18 2017 03:36:53 PM MDT
Let us know how things work out!  the Wolff 22 lbs is usually all mine needs for even the heavy impulse ammo.

well its supposed to rain this weekend (cant use chronograph) and I don't have a load developed yet for the bulk Rainier 200gr plated bullets ive got. so ive decided to shamelessly steal your load of 10gr of blue dot from another thread. you were getting 1200fps from 208gr cast bullets so I should get results in the same ball park with 200gr plated bullets. I'm not concerned as much about accuracy or speed as I am function with full power or near full power loads.

-matt

Midway has them for 19.99 a piece atm: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/714785/glock-magazine-glock-20-20sf-10mm-auto-15-round-polymer-black

so I just swapped out my Glockstore 22lb captured recoil spring for a Wolff 24lb uncaptured spring and the difference is night and day (I just took the screw out of the capture rod). in fact the difference feels heavier then it should be... its hard to say without some method of truly testing the springs but I would say either the 22lb spring was actually lighter then 22lb or the 24lb spring is actually heavier then 24lb. I am a bit concerned that it sounds like the Wolff spring is dragging inside the gun during cycling but I don't think its too bad.

I will try out the pistol with the new recoil spring at the range this weekend.

-matt