In an 'armored car vs. locomotive engine', even if both are going only 10mph, which one would you prefer to be in at collision?

If "best choice" assumes successful penetration, usually to the CNS of the target, for purposes of stopping it on the spot from running/charging, the conventional wisdom ballistically is hard +heavy +fast increases probability of success. Ideally, some controlled expansion thrown in for increased wound channel diameter is a desired attribute as long as it doesn't diminish the primary required attributes. In light of that, as sqlbullet correctly described, for boar/bear type targets, the 200/220gn hard cast loaded reasonably hot...~1300-1100 fps, respectively is recommended and any 140g is just going to get you in a bad spot, barring some remote chance sequence of events. ( heard the..."killed a T-Rex with a .22 short" story?)

@sqlbullet  greetings...long time  quick question on your Sectional Density reply.  Apologies if it's OT
Are you describing sectional density as inertia + considering the construct of the projectile? First thing comes to mind is 5.56 xm855 LAP (hardened steel core 'penetrator') vs. a std. 62g .224 designed for 5.56/.223. All else considered equal, the 62g LAP penetrates further than a 62g ball. Just curious how sectional density factors into this scenario.

Classic example of a stock GLOCK chamber's slop. Not to say that's the cause. But the pic show the weak area of (un)support...if that's a real word. Thanks for posting these. Glad you're able to.
Going by your statement that your charge of BD was in spec, did you measure oal of remaining rounds that lived?  Any tight necks on the ones you pulled?
If it's any consolation, I've been there before and I'm a better handloader for it.

Thanks for this!  I've been looking for a good Golden Saber load.  When I get a chance to work up my G20/G29 load, I'll post my results if you want.

You all do great work on rev. engineering and re-engineering these loads!  Thank you.
With all your experience, how comfortable do you guys feel extrapolating data from a 165gr GD to a 165gr Golden Saber?  I just got a deal on a small box of 500 of them (GS's) and want to load them in both 10mm/.40S&W for SD loads.  In my experience, I've seen some nice terminal perf of the GS's (decent penetration, nasty petals, etc.; very talon-like).  I'd like to know your thoughts as well.

Thanks again!

Quote from: Rick1987 on September 05 2012 02:06:39 PM MDT
Anyone use Montana Gold for 10mm?

I use 155gr Montana Gold JHP for my .40S&W and I like them.

Great bullet.  I use their 155 JHP's in both .40 and 10mm and they shoot great for IDPA distances.  I also like their 180's in both TMJ and JHP.  $300/2500 for a nice jacketed bullet....back up the truck.  I stay away from lead as much as possible.  Tooo much ingestion/exposure...whatever u want to call it.  That's why I prefer the TMJ over the lead-base exposed FMJ. 
For internal and external ballistics, they perform like GD's but without the terminal performance.  So for rnds not intended for biological interruption, the MG's are great, IMHO.  Great service too.

CED Pro Chrono.  Less than $100 and works great.  Ran it next to my friends Shooting Chrony and he was spending more time messing with the settings than shooting over it! 
Also, if you want, the CED can be 'updated' with the USB cable and digital program for your laptop.

BTW, how does one go about calibrating a chronograph??   :'(

Thanks!

Quote from: REDLINE on September 06 2012 12:26:18 AM MDT
It really sucks when stuff like this happens with no definitive answer as to why.

It does.  It's like a random crime.  it doesn't matter what you have/haven't done... it just happens.  But I still learned a few new tips and am blessed to not have been maimed. 

Thanks to you all for sharing.  I hope this thread helps others that come along, as well.

This has been posted on Glocktalk for a couple months.  Had a buyer back out.  Great deal.  PM me if interested. 
details here ---> http://glocktalk.com/classifieds/showcat.php?cat=500&ppuser=203924 

It wouldn't surprise me if it were the case.  I took every precaution I know of and have always been using.  There's no way I had a powder mix up.  Not only do I use only a single container of 1 powder in it's original container at my bench at one time, all others are locked up in another room.  I take the time to clean my hopper, bar, etc when changing powder so as not to have even 1 kernel of another powder mix with the next.  I'm borderline neurotically paranoid about that stuff b/c I know how easy mistakes can happen when I am not that careful.  And even then, a flawed human makes a flawed product.

I checked the remaining rnds from the blown mag and their OAL is unchanged... 1.255"-1.257".  I attached a pic of the blown case plus 2 of the same batch and 1 factory after the KB.  Would you have stopped after seeing these cases?

Thanks for responding,

- Dave

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Quote from: uz2bUSMC on August 30 2012 03:16:07 PM MDT
Think there is a chance your progessive snuck in a really light charge?

I scaled checked ea rnd.  Anything 11.9-12.0 I accepted.  Else, I dumped and recharged.  I was working on a new max load with a new powder so I made extra sure.  I only loaded 20 test rnds so I didn't mind the extra time.  But, yeah, I'm tracking ya.  Progressives can swing either heavy or light depending a few variables.

Quote from: 10d on August 30 2012 01:53:58 PM MDT
Maybe your crimp wasn't tight enough.If a bullet sets back upon chambering it will cause pressure to go way to high.If you want a hot load maybe using AA 9 is a better way to go in a glock.It fills the case and is a slow powder.Always good to make sure your crimp is good.Sometimes a die can back out a little.10mm's have strong recoil springs and I put a pretty good crimp on my handloads.I push my bullets into the side of my bench after setting the crimp and make sure they hold then measure to check for setback.Glad you didn't get hurt.

Thanks.  I was very fortunate.
Possibly.  When I set up my dies or change to different bullets, I check my crimp/FCD by measuring case mouth with my mic.  Essentially, I adjust it until it flattens out the flare.  I did measure the OAL of the remaining rnds in the mag and they were unchanged. 
If anything, I may have had too tight a crimp.  But I've used the Lee FCD since day one loading .40's and set them up the same way.  In fact, a habit I picked up from loading match rifle rnds is that I pull the first 2-3 rnds I make and check the bullet for deformities (ring, deep scratches, etc.) for consistent neck tension.  I do that for max loads in .40/10mm as well.  It's the only way I know how to check for OVER crimping/neck tension.  But it's possible in those other loads, a tight crimp didn't matter as much as it did these... who knows? 

Very interesting.  I would have like to have read this last week.  Even if some of the data is 'missing', the data he detailed and the conclusions are very telling.  The measure of unpredictability is pretty eye opening. 
The bleeding edge can be indeed...

Quote from: sqlbullet on August 30 2012 07:40:32 AM MDT
Glad you are ok in any event.  This is one shooting experience I haven't had to date, and hope to never have.  I had a couple of mis-fires in my Garands with WC846T that a standard primer just wouldn't quite get started properly.  Same day I had a bullet stuck in the bore of my CETME in .308 from the same powder, same problem.  Pulled them all and reloaded the cases with Varget, and then switched to Magnum primers for all my surplus powder.  Problem solved.

I have two RCBS kinetic bullet pullers.  Both have been great.  I bought one, then recently inherited the other.

And, I second the comments about digital scales.  I have one I use to weigh cast bullets, looking for internal voids.  But if I want an accurate measurement you can't beat a balance beam scale.

Thanks.  I appreciate the good will.  I hope you never do, either.  I'm a little skiddish about getting on the horse again, to be honest.  I feel like the time I got rear-ended at an intersection pretty badly.  Once i recovered and started driving again, my adrenaline spiked every time i saw a grill in my rear-view mirror! 

The worst I've ever had happen to me prior to the KB was one squib way back when I started loading .223 on a progressive.  I felt defiled.  But no physical damage was done and you gotta move on.  I just started loading pistol about 2 yrs ago primarily in .40.

My G20 looks and feels GTG.  I fired the factory load after the KB and it was nominal.  I think I might take a chill break for a while and pull my bullets.  Maybe shoot some factory loads I have... to get through any apprehension.  In the meantime, re-examine my pistol loading ideals and research scales, etc.  Also, I'm guilty of 'shooting for power' and the odds got even.  (Although I still don't understand why my previous cases didn't show any signs of excessive pressure)  So, like my rifle loading, I'm going to shift gears to loading for accuracy as a priority... even in the 10mm.    Thanks again for sharing.

Quote from: sqlbullet on August 29 2012 03:38:01 PM MDT
If I had to guess, I would say that circular split if from where the front of the case, where the walls are thin, was pressed hard enough against the chamber that it could not move, while the back of the case did move.  This may indicate the breach was starting to open prematurely.

And, I have been as guilty as the next guy of cherrypicking hot load data from one source.  Speer is one of my go-too's when I want to document rationale behind a hot charge.

Yeah, I was thinking something similar.  When I pick up my G20 off the grnd, it was slightly stuck back out of battery.  I thought it was toast the way it violently exploded out of my hand.  But i just racked the slide and ...dink...out came the mangled case.  I think the charge ignited, and the bullet left the case.  Either when it went into the leades or sometime b4 it left the muzzle, pressure spiked violently WHILE blowback was beginning to eject the case out of batt.  Before the case left the chamber, if failed.  This is evident by the crescent shape of the hole near the case head.  Then everything jammed at some point when the case was almost torn in half....starting at one side of the case (6:00 o'clock) but not completely tearing all the way across.  I dunno...it's just how I picture it.  The main thing is that I want to learn what happened to help other and prevent it from happening again, should i decide to go back to working up max loads.  I was hoping you uber gurus could wave your wands and give me an answer.     besides take up Archery...not that there's anything wrong with that.   

You nailed it on the cherrypicking.  I didn't think there was anything wrong with doing that until now.  There's such a diverse body of data out that it was nice to have an 'anchor'. so-to-speak.

Thanks everyone for your input.  It all helps.

- Dave

Quote from: cwlongshot on August 29 2012 03:56:58 PM MDT
Glad to hear your OK...

The way I see things, you have three possible problems.

One; OAL... (I am sure you know this) seat the bullets short and pressures go up.

Two; Whe was the last time you checked or calibrated your "digital" scale.  I do not trust them, unless you have spent HUGE DOLLARS they simply are too inaccurate for me. Ill take a balance beam thats easy to adjust and accurate...

Three; A bad case... Was it brand new? (NEW anything doesn't exclude it from scrutiny) Maybe a multi fired case slipped in???

I like progressives, but I only use them for range loads, anything near max I go straight to single stage and weighing every load, (Max loadings) I use a Redding powder measure, with most powders its set to two grains light and trickle to level. Don't beat yourself up too badly, hind site is always 20/20. Use it as a learning experience. Don't forget it, screw that case to your bench where you will see it every time you weigh a charge.

Again, glad you are OK...

CW

Thanks CW.  It's true that my COAL was .005" short and that's (+/-) 1-2 1000's honestly.  I don't think measuring the JHP is that accurate in the .400 JHP MG's.  The 'petals' on the meplat are rough and can easily throw off a measurement to the .001".  I would think I'd see the first 2 rnds show signs of pressure, though, since they were within the same tolerances.  Little things can add up.  Almost everything in this lot of rnds was new... new brass, 1st pound of AA#7, new G20, even myself!  I'm new to 10mm. so I'd expect to make mistakes.  But that's why I'm so careful...or thought i was.

Yes, no doubt the brass was never fired.  I just got the batch from Starline and set them aside for these max loads.  I had no other brass or powder on my table.  I haven't calibrated my scale in about a year.  I have a 100gram wt and I'll check it ASAP.  I use my Dillon for my F Class and FT-R  HP Rifle match rounds.  Just not wham-bam progressively and not with Dillon dies.  I'm almost as meticulous with max pistol rnds.  I don't case prep and check runout, etc. but I verify everything and don't load for quantity unless It's a pet load I know is GTG.

But the points you make are good.  Usually a disaster happens when a lot of little things come together at the same time.
too much charge per Accurate data...
bullet type diff from guide... (MG vs. XTP)
.005" short COAL...
possibly a weak case...
unsupported case area in chamber...
inexperience...

It's just that I've always read...and it makes sense... that you have those pressure signs like chamber lines in Glock to look for if ur getting too close to the red line.  Aside from flat primers, I didn't see any of those signs. 

Any good solid bullet pullers out there?     My cheesy blue plastic one broke off at the cap after 5 rnds.

Thanks again...

- Dave