.460 Rowland--Yeah, it's for real....

[DM1906]

During my absence I had a lot of time to do some (mostly) fun stuff. One of them is building a .460R pistol and developing loads for it. The pistol is based on a G21 Gen3 that I bought new just for this purpose. Only the frame is used, although my original plan was to use the original Glock slide. I went barrel shopping, and ended up checking out with a long slide, 6.6" .460R barrel, assorted RSA's and a comp. As time passed, other internals were acquired and fitted. Sights are still experimental at this point, but I'm leaning toward traditional adjustable iron sights. This thing is ugly as sin, but man-oh-man, does it shoot! Load and (ridiculous) ballistic data to follow....



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[The_Shadow]

Looking forward to the info as are others who have been inquiring its possibilities!

[EdMc]

I, too, am interested in loads you've used. Tried a couple I found on the internet with Longshot that worked well in a Clark conversion 1911. Lost access to anywhere I can shoot over a chrono.

[DM1906]

I've tried a bunch of powder and bullet combinations. Much of the problem has been keeping the bullets together. Typical 230 gr. HP .45ACP bullets, including XTP, GD, and GS, explode on impact with just about anything. X-Treme HP's have done about best. They are plated, but the plating is very thick and well bonded with a concave base (WAY better than Berry's or Rainier). They aren't designed to expand at ACP velocities, but they do at .460R speeds. Hard cast aren't worth the time testing just yet, as I have tons of data for the bullets I already use in this velocity range in other cartridges. I've got some high velocity .45LC and .460SWM bullets on the way. I'll post actual loads and data later when I've got a better database put together. Also note that my pistol is a longslide with a 6.6" barrel. Some of the loads I've been doing with Longshot and BD are 200+ FPS greater than published loads from 5" barrels (230 gr. HP @1515 FPS with a low-mid LS load, BD is ridiculous). Faster powders track closer to the general results, and slower powders run out of case capacity. AA7 seems to be a favorite with others, but it falls off with more barrel. The LWD chamber is tight, with a .452" freebore that easily accommodates long noses to full COAL. Another issue to work out is slide velocity. With the solid top long slide, long barrel, compensator and optics, it is so massive and delayed the .460 cases trickle out to about 4-5', and ACP's with most powders won't fully cycle at all. I have an assortment of 15-26# RSA's, which is just another variable to work in. It's still early. It's still fun.

[DM1906]

BTW, to anyone interested.....

Lone Wolf is having a sale now for a .45ACP threaded barrel and compensator combo. Just got the email today. $150 gets you almost into a simple Glock .460 Rowland. If you want the .460R, just add the .460R chamber ream job to the purchase and it'll be marked and reamed when you get it. I'm tempted to build a "shorty".

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=913337&CAT=237&utm_source=Constant%2BContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Constant%2BContact%2BBanners

[EdMc]

Umm.....now you have me thinking. That usually ends with money spent.

The slide I used on a 10mm long slide G-20 is actually a G-21 LS. Another barrel, mags and a couple of parts changed ....

Or just pick up a G-21 slide and the barrel/comp combination you posted above. I noticed on the website it's a product of Lone Wolf R&D, LLC not Lone Wolf Enterprises. Not sure what the warning of possibly not fitting with other accessories entails?

With the few hand loads tried in the Para/Clark 1911 I found the 460R lived up to claims with no drama. Very interested in what you've tried after reading the velocities quoted above. Yowser....

[DM1906]

The slide, barrel and comp I used for this build is the same as what's pictured in the link, except for the barrel length and marking. I purchased a .45ACP 6.61" threaded barrel and had them ream it to .460R. They remarked the caliber and struck through the original .45 mark (all blind marked). I'm also using the LWD forged locking block.

Before I finished the .460 build (waiting for parts), I shot a bunch of 9x25D with the G21 long slide. It did well, but I had to use a 15# spring. The spring was still too heavy (needs about an 11#), but the thing felt like an air pistol, even with the hottest Dillon loads. Of course, that's an exaggeration, but not by much.

The velocities I'm getting aren't too surprising. My barrel is 32% longer (the bore is actually 40% longer) than those used for most published loads. I also confirmed my results on a different chronograph. 1/3+ more barrel volume coupled with slower, high energy powders equals much greater performance potential. Add to that, matching the load with the comp, improves the handling. Still a ways to go, with almost no similar data to work off of. Take AA7, for example. It's a favorite with many Rowland shooters. I tried it, and quickly found it pooped out in my long barrel. The powder does well in shorter barrels, but offers no advantage for me, and is actually worse because my comp gets too little gas. BD and LS seem to do well, even at starting loads. I haven't tested anywhere near max, yet. It's just too hot now, so it may be a couple weeks.

[DM1906]

Also....
I've used LWD barrels and other parts for years. I like what I've got from them. Some don't. It's like the Ford vs. Chevy thing. I've not had any issues with fitment that a little polishing didn't cure. In my experience, Storm Lake is junk. Bar-Sto is good, but I wouldn't say better than LWD. It only has to work, and the Bar-Sto's I had didn't do anything better. Why pay double, when I don't have too? LWD doesn't make 1911 parts that I'm aware of, so I can't say anything about that.

I don't know what "Lone Wolf Enterprises" is, or I don't remember.

[EdMc]

No big deal. 'Manufacturer: Lone Wolf Distributors' is usually listed on their products. On a few, 'Lone Wolf R&D, LLC'........I would suppose in house made products? I just notice things like that.

No complaints on the 10mm parts I've purchased from them in the past. As you mentioned, a little polishing and also fire lapped the bore to some extent. I tend to jump around a bit on calibers of interest. Maybe due to age. So little time....

Read of the need for more gases to work a comp but have never understood how a powder is selected for that aspect. Composition? Rate of burn? My knowledge base is small in this area.....so try to learn from sites such as this. Thanks.

[DM1906]

No big deal. 'Manufacturer: Lone Wolf Distributors' is usually listed on their products. On a few, 'Lone Wolf R&D, LLC'........I would suppose in house made products? I just notice things like that.

I suspect R&D is Lone Wolf Custom. They manufacture and market Timberwolf frames and other custom Glock parts, such as the forged locking block and comp I'm using.

No complaints on the 10mm parts I've purchased from them in the past. As you mentioned, a little polishing and also fire lapped the bore to some extent. I tend to jump around a bit on calibers of interest. Maybe due to age. So little time....

I do the same, but their barrels and most parts work well right out of the box with no tweaking.

Read of the need for more gases to work a comp but have never understood how a powder is selected for that aspect. Composition? Rate of burn? My knowledge base is small in this area.....so try to learn from sites such as this. Thanks.

Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).

[sqlbullet]

Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).

Gonna have to disagree with most of this.

Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated, not gas operated.

The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.

In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel.  That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.

Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.

[DM1906]

Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).

Gonna have to disagree with most of this.

Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated, not gas operated.

The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.

In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel.  That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.

Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.

Recoil is a product of gas expansion. Comparative mass is the cause of the 1911 design "early" slide movement, due to it's unique barrel-link design. However, the slide movement is minimal until the bullet exits the muzzle, allowing full gas exit, then allowing blow-back to complete the action cycle. Absent the gas factor, the use of compensators would be ineffective, and we would never see "over-comped" 1911's fail to cycle. For this reason, the "recoil" of the action is adjusted and controlled very differently than that of modern "locked action" handguns. Modern designs rely on a ramped-lug concept, which is fully gas-operated, as there is no slide departure until the bullet has exited the bore. Prior to projectile and gas exit, the barrel lug does not engage the locking block ramp. If not for the gas, in either design, there would be near-zero felt recoil, as comparative mass cancels the projectile to near zero cumulative affect.

[my_old_glock]

Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).

Gonna have to disagree with most of this.

Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated, not gas operated.

The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.

In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel.  That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.

Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.

Recoil is a product of gas expansion. Comparative mass is the cause of the 1911 design "early" slide movement, due to it's unique barrel-link design. However, the slide movement is minimal until the bullet exits the muzzle, allowing full gas exit, then allowing blow-back to complete the action cycle. Absent the gas factor, the use of compensators would be ineffective, and we would never see "over-comped" 1911's fail to cycle. For this reason, the "recoil" of the action is adjusted and controlled very differently than that of modern "locked action" handguns. Modern designs rely on a ramped-lug concept, which is fully gas-operated, as there is no slide departure until the bullet has exited the bore. Prior to projectile and gas exit, the barrel lug does not engage the locking block ramp. If not for the gas, in either design, there would be near-zero felt recoil, as comparative mass cancels the projectile to near zero cumulative affect.

Nothing personal, but you don't understand how it works.

Gas operation means that a portion of the gas is bled-off to unlock the breach. There is also gas-delayed-blow-back like the Steyr GB and HKP7.

The 1911, and other like it, are recoil operated. The old Browning A5 shotgun is also recoil operated. Benelli shotguns are recoil operated.


.

[sqlbullet]

With all respect to a long forum member, nothing you are describing aligns with the basic laws of physics I learned in college, and have applied to accurately predict slide travel in recoil operated handguns.

An 'over comped' gun will fail to function because a significant percentage of the recoil mass is now part of the barrel/comp, which robs the slide of needed momentum, in addition to slowing it's velocity.

I don't know what the term comparative mass means.  Google didn't help.  It sounds like an oblique reference to Newtons 3rd law, which also implies conservation of momentum.

However, even in modern designs (Glock?) which use a "locking block ramp" (google only knows locking block) or a "ramped lug" (lots of results related to AR-15's) if the slide/barrel is free to move, it will move some before the bullet leaves the barrel.

Glock 19 at 1200 frames/sec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fr5ccyriJI

You have to watch closely, but the barrel/slide do move pre-bullet exit.

I am not trying to pick a fight.  I am trying to make sure we have accurate information on the forum.

[DM1906]

Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).

Gonna have to disagree with most of this.

Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated, not gas operated.

The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.

In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel.  That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.

Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.

Recoil is a product of gas expansion. Comparative mass is the cause of the 1911 design "early" slide movement, due to it's unique barrel-link design. However, the slide movement is minimal until the bullet exits the muzzle, allowing full gas exit, then allowing blow-back to complete the action cycle. Absent the gas factor, the use of compensators would be ineffective, and we would never see "over-comped" 1911's fail to cycle. For this reason, the "recoil" of the action is adjusted and controlled very differently than that of modern "locked action" handguns. Modern designs rely on a ramped-lug concept, which is fully gas-operated, as there is no slide departure until the bullet has exited the bore. Prior to projectile and gas exit, the barrel lug does not engage the locking block ramp. If not for the gas, in either design, there would be near-zero felt recoil, as comparative mass cancels the projectile to near zero cumulative affect.

Nothing personal, but you don't understand how it works.

Gas operation means that a portion of the gas is bled-off to unlock the breach. There is also gas-delayed-blow-back like the Steyr GB and HKP7.

The 1911, and other like it, are recoil operated. The old Browning A5 shotgun is also recoil operated. Benelli shotguns are recoil operated.


.

It isn't personal.

"Gas operation" has many vague meanings. By saying it is "bled off" to unlock the breach is only a very small part of it. Once unlocked, it's the expanding gas that causes action cycling. The breach unlock is only delayed by the process of the gas pressure being delayed until the projectile passes the gas port in the barrel, which initiates the mechanical disconnect. The same thing occurs in a Glock pistol, for example, only it does it barrel to slide locked relation. It's the exiting jet of gas from the muzzle that forces the barrel rearward, causing the barrel lug to engage the locking block ramp, lowering the barrel hood from the locked position with the slide, allowing the expanding gas to force the slide rearward against the RSA to complete the cycle. In any case, however you describe the method, expanding gas is used to initiate the mechanical process of the action.

I understand perfectly how it works. As I said, recoil is a product of gas expansion. Recoil is nothing more than what the shooter "feels". The expanding gas initiates comparative mass departure. Kinetic and potential energies complete the cycle. Newton's laws describe it. Delayed blow-back, by any definition, is the manipulation of gas timing, regardless of the implementation.