During my absence I had a lot of time to do some (mostly) fun stuff. One of them is building a .460R pistol and developing loads for it. The pistol is based on a G21 Gen3 that I bought new just for this purpose. Only the frame is used, although my original plan was to use the original Glock slide. I went barrel shopping, and ended up checking out with a long slide, 6.6" .460R barrel, assorted RSA's and a comp. As time passed, other internals were acquired and fitted. Sights are still experimental at this point, but I'm leaning toward traditional adjustable iron sights. This thing is ugly as sin, but man-oh-man, does it shoot! Load and (ridiculous) ballistic data to follow....
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Looking forward to the info as are others who have been inquiring its possibilities!
I, too, am interested in loads you've used. Tried a couple I found on the internet with Longshot that worked well in a Clark conversion 1911. Lost access to anywhere I can shoot over a chrono.
I've tried a bunch of powder and bullet combinations. Much of the problem has been keeping the bullets together. Typical 230 gr. HP .45ACP bullets, including XTP, GD, and GS, explode on impact with just about anything. X-Treme HP's have done about best. They are plated, but the plating is very thick and well bonded with a concave base (WAY better than Berry's or Rainier). They aren't designed to expand at ACP velocities, but they do at .460R speeds. Hard cast aren't worth the time testing just yet, as I have tons of data for the bullets I already use in this velocity range in other cartridges. I've got some high velocity .45LC and .460SWM bullets on the way. I'll post actual loads and data later when I've got a better database put together. Also note that my pistol is a longslide with a 6.6" barrel. Some of the loads I've been doing with Longshot and BD are 200+ FPS greater than published loads from 5" barrels (230 gr. HP @1515 FPS with a low-mid LS load, BD is ridiculous). Faster powders track closer to the general results, and slower powders run out of case capacity. AA7 seems to be a favorite with others, but it falls off with more barrel. The LWD chamber is tight, with a .452" freebore that easily accommodates long noses to full COAL. Another issue to work out is slide velocity. With the solid top long slide, long barrel, compensator and optics, it is so massive and delayed the .460 cases trickle out to about 4-5', and ACP's with most powders won't fully cycle at all. I have an assortment of 15-26# RSA's, which is just another variable to work in. It's still early. It's still fun.
BTW, to anyone interested.....
Lone Wolf is having a sale now for a .45ACP threaded barrel and compensator combo. Just got the email today. $150 gets you almost into a simple Glock .460 Rowland. If you want the .460R, just add the .460R chamber ream job to the purchase and it'll be marked and reamed when you get it. I'm tempted to build a "shorty".
http://www.lonewolfdist.com/Detail.aspx?PROD=913337&CAT=237&utm_source=Constant%2BContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Constant%2BContact%2BBanners
Umm.....now you have me thinking. That usually ends with money spent. :))
The slide I used on a 10mm long slide G-20 is actually a G-21 LS. Another barrel, mags and a couple of parts changed ....
Or just pick up a G-21 slide and the barrel/comp combination you posted above. I noticed on the website it's a product of Lone Wolf R&D, LLC not Lone Wolf Enterprises. Not sure what the warning of possibly not fitting with other accessories entails?
With the few hand loads tried in the Para/Clark 1911 I found the 460R lived up to claims with no drama. Very interested in what you've tried after reading the velocities quoted above. Yowser....
The slide, barrel and comp I used for this build is the same as what's pictured in the link, except for the barrel length and marking. I purchased a .45ACP 6.61" threaded barrel and had them ream it to .460R. They remarked the caliber and struck through the original .45 mark (all blind marked). I'm also using the LWD forged locking block.
Before I finished the .460 build (waiting for parts), I shot a bunch of 9x25D with the G21 long slide. It did well, but I had to use a 15# spring. The spring was still too heavy (needs about an 11#), but the thing felt like an air pistol, even with the hottest Dillon loads. Of course, that's an exaggeration, but not by much.
The velocities I'm getting aren't too surprising. My barrel is 32% longer (the bore is actually 40% longer) than those used for most published loads. I also confirmed my results on a different chronograph. 1/3+ more barrel volume coupled with slower, high energy powders equals much greater performance potential. Add to that, matching the load with the comp, improves the handling. Still a ways to go, with almost no similar data to work off of. Take AA7, for example. It's a favorite with many Rowland shooters. I tried it, and quickly found it pooped out in my long barrel. The powder does well in shorter barrels, but offers no advantage for me, and is actually worse because my comp gets too little gas. BD and LS seem to do well, even at starting loads. I haven't tested anywhere near max, yet. It's just too hot now, so it may be a couple weeks.
Also....
I've used LWD barrels and other parts for years. I like what I've got from them. Some don't. It's like the Ford vs. Chevy thing. I've not had any issues with fitment that a little polishing didn't cure. In my experience, Storm Lake is junk. Bar-Sto is good, but I wouldn't say better than LWD. It only has to work, and the Bar-Sto's I had didn't do anything better. Why pay double, when I don't have too? LWD doesn't make 1911 parts that I'm aware of, so I can't say anything about that.
I don't know what "Lone Wolf Enterprises" is, or I don't remember.
No big deal. 'Manufacturer: Lone Wolf Distributors' is usually listed on their products. On a few, 'Lone Wolf R&D, LLC'........I would suppose in house made products? I just notice things like that.
No complaints on the 10mm parts I've purchased from them in the past. As you mentioned, a little polishing and also fire lapped the bore to some extent. I tend to jump around a bit on calibers of interest. Maybe due to age. So little time.... ;)
Read of the need for more gases to work a comp but have never understood how a powder is selected for that aspect. Composition? Rate of burn? My knowledge base is small in this area.....so try to learn from sites such as this. Thanks.
Quote from: EdMc on July 07 2015 05:45:41 AM MDT
No big deal. 'Manufacturer: Lone Wolf Distributors' is usually listed on their products. On a few, 'Lone Wolf R&D, LLC'........I would suppose in house made products? I just notice things like that.
I suspect R&D is Lone Wolf Custom. They manufacture and market Timberwolf frames and other custom Glock parts, such as the forged locking block and comp I'm using.
QuoteNo complaints on the 10mm parts I've purchased from them in the past. As you mentioned, a little polishing and also fire lapped the bore to some extent. I tend to jump around a bit on calibers of interest. Maybe due to age. So little time.... ;)
I do the same, but their barrels and most parts work well right out of the box with no tweaking.
QuoteRead of the need for more gases to work a comp but have never understood how a powder is selected for that aspect. Composition? Rate of burn? My knowledge base is small in this area.....so try to learn from sites such as this. Thanks.
Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 09:44:49 AM MDT
Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).
Gonna have to disagree with most of this.
Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation), not gas operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading).
The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.
In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel. That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.
Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 07 2015 12:35:58 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 09:44:49 AM MDT
Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).
Gonna have to disagree with most of this.
Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation), not gas operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading).
The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.
In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel. That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.
Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.
Recoil is a product of gas expansion. Comparative mass is the cause of the 1911 design "early" slide movement, due to it's unique barrel-link design. However, the slide movement is minimal until the bullet exits the muzzle, allowing full gas exit, then allowing blow-back to complete the action cycle. Absent the gas factor, the use of compensators would be ineffective, and we would never see "over-comped" 1911's fail to cycle. For this reason, the "recoil" of the action is adjusted and controlled very differently than that of modern "locked action" handguns. Modern designs rely on a ramped-lug concept, which is fully gas-operated, as there is no slide departure until the bullet has exited the bore. Prior to projectile and gas exit, the barrel lug does not engage the locking block ramp. If not for the gas, in either design, there would be near-zero felt recoil, as comparative mass cancels the projectile to near zero cumulative affect.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 01:08:42 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 07 2015 12:35:58 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 09:44:49 AM MDT
Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).
Gonna have to disagree with most of this.
Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation), not gas operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading).
The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.
In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel. That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.
Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.
Recoil is a product of gas expansion. Comparative mass is the cause of the 1911 design "early" slide movement, due to it's unique barrel-link design. However, the slide movement is minimal until the bullet exits the muzzle, allowing full gas exit, then allowing blow-back to complete the action cycle. Absent the gas factor, the use of compensators would be ineffective, and we would never see "over-comped" 1911's fail to cycle. For this reason, the "recoil" of the action is adjusted and controlled very differently than that of modern "locked action" handguns. Modern designs rely on a ramped-lug concept, which is fully gas-operated, as there is no slide departure until the bullet has exited the bore. Prior to projectile and gas exit, the barrel lug does not engage the locking block ramp. If not for the gas, in either design, there would be near-zero felt recoil, as comparative mass cancels the projectile to near zero cumulative affect.
Nothing personal, but you don't understand how it works.
Gas operation means that a portion of the gas is bled-off to unlock the breach. There is also gas-delayed-blow-back like the Steyr GB and HKP7.
The 1911, and other like it, are recoil operated. The old Browning A5 shotgun is also recoil operated. Benelli shotguns are recoil operated.
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With all respect to a long forum member, nothing you are describing aligns with the basic laws of physics I learned in college, and have applied to accurately predict slide travel in recoil operated handguns.
An 'over comped' gun will fail to function because a significant percentage of the recoil mass is now part of the barrel/comp, which robs the slide of needed momentum, in addition to slowing it's velocity.
I don't know what the term comparative mass means. Google didn't help. It sounds like an oblique reference to Newtons 3rd law, which also implies conservation of momentum.
However, even in modern designs (Glock?) which use a "locking block ramp" (google only knows locking block) or a "ramped lug" (lots of results related to AR-15's) if the slide/barrel is free to move, it will move some before the bullet leaves the barrel.
Glock 19 at 1200 frames/sec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fr5ccyriJI
You have to watch closely, but the barrel/slide do move pre-bullet exit.
I am not trying to pick a fight. I am trying to make sure we have accurate information on the forum.
Quote from: my_old_glock on July 07 2015 01:42:34 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 01:08:42 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 07 2015 12:35:58 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 09:44:49 AM MDT
Semi-auto handguns are, in fact, "gas operated, self loading" firearms, by the same definition as most common rifles. The only difference is how the gas is used. It is the jet of gas exiting the bore that initiates the action-cycle, NOT the pressure between the case and bullet (misconception). Blow-back actions are similar, but don't have a delay-lock period (they rely on comparative mass for timing). The compensator allows a specific volume of gas to exit the bore in a direction other than linear with the bore, BEFORE the bullet exits the bore. This allows the action to stay locked (delay) until the gas volume in the bore decreases, reducing the gas exiting linear with the bore. The direction of the gas exiting the comp to the sides and top is a by-product of the process, and is beneficial to reduce muzzle-rise, and to some degree, felt recoil, depending on porting directions. However, the vast majority of reduced felt recoil is due to the reduction of liner exited gas (less gas pushing against the shooter).
Gonna have to disagree with most of this.
Most semi-auto handguns are recoil operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation), not gas operated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading).
The gas and powder residue ejecta has a negligible impact on the operation of a tilt barrel or of a blowback recoil action.
In fact, the barrel of a government model 1911 is already moving 25 feet per second rearward when the bullet reaches the muzzle, before any gas or powder residue leaves the barrel. That is more than enough inertia to complete the cycle by itself.
Since this recoil energy is from the conservation of momentum, the mass of the gas and powder residue is slight compared to the mass of the projectile ejecta.
Recoil is a product of gas expansion. Comparative mass is the cause of the 1911 design "early" slide movement, due to it's unique barrel-link design. However, the slide movement is minimal until the bullet exits the muzzle, allowing full gas exit, then allowing blow-back to complete the action cycle. Absent the gas factor, the use of compensators would be ineffective, and we would never see "over-comped" 1911's fail to cycle. For this reason, the "recoil" of the action is adjusted and controlled very differently than that of modern "locked action" handguns. Modern designs rely on a ramped-lug concept, which is fully gas-operated, as there is no slide departure until the bullet has exited the bore. Prior to projectile and gas exit, the barrel lug does not engage the locking block ramp. If not for the gas, in either design, there would be near-zero felt recoil, as comparative mass cancels the projectile to near zero cumulative affect.
Nothing personal, but you don't understand how it works.
Gas operation means that a portion of the gas is bled-off to unlock the breach. There is also gas-delayed-blow-back like the Steyr GB and HKP7.
The 1911, and other like it, are recoil operated. The old Browning A5 shotgun is also recoil operated. Benelli shotguns are recoil operated.
.
It isn't personal.
"Gas operation" has many vague meanings. By saying it is "bled off" to unlock the breach is only a very small part of it. Once unlocked, it's the expanding gas that causes action cycling. The breach unlock is only delayed by the process of the gas pressure being delayed until the projectile passes the gas port in the barrel, which initiates the mechanical disconnect. The same thing occurs in a Glock pistol, for example, only it does it barrel to slide locked relation. It's the exiting jet of gas from the muzzle that forces the barrel rearward, causing the barrel lug to engage the locking block ramp, lowering the barrel hood from the locked position with the slide, allowing the expanding gas to force the slide rearward against the RSA to complete the cycle. In any case, however you describe the method, expanding gas is used to initiate the mechanical process of the action.
I understand perfectly how it works. As I said, recoil is a product of gas expansion. Recoil is nothing more than what the shooter "feels". The expanding gas initiates comparative mass departure. Kinetic and potential energies complete the cycle. Newton's laws describe it. Delayed blow-back, by any definition, is the manipulation of gas timing, regardless of the implementation.
BTW the video of the G-19 doesn't eject the spent casing...No Ejector! or Broken Ejector!
Yes the Barrel and slide do start to move as a result of the cartridge being fired and before the bullet leaves the bore.
It is also why I like the fact that a non captive recoil spring exerts slightly more pressure to hold the slide closed.
Some captive factory springs have been known to just fall out while removing the slide from the frame, I have to believe this may in fact be a cause for early unlock. I could be wrong but, I have more confidence with the non captive set up from Wolff with a measured difference being applied to hold it in battery.
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 07 2015 01:56:14 PM MDT
With all respect to a long forum member, nothing you are describing aligns with the basic laws of physics I learned in college, and have applied to accurately predict slide travel in recoil operated handguns.
An 'over comped' gun will fail to function because a significant percentage of the recoil mass is now part of the barrel/comp, which robs the slide of needed momentum, in addition to slowing it's velocity.
I don't know what the term comparative mass means. Google didn't help. It sounds like an oblique reference to Newtons 3rd law, which also implies conservation of momentum.
However, even in modern designs (Glock?) which use a "locking block ramp" (google only knows locking block) or a "ramped lug" (lots of results related to AR-15's) if the slide/barrel is free to move, it will move some before the bullet leaves the barrel.
Glock 19 at 1200 frames/sec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fr5ccyriJI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fr5ccyriJI)
You have to watch closely, but the barrel/slide do move pre-bullet exit.
I am not trying to pick a fight. I am trying to make sure we have accurate information on the forum.
Comparative mass (in this case): Mass of the projectile vs. the mass of the firearm. "Projectile" represents the components that are not physically attached to the firearm, including the bullet, combustibles and resultant properties (gas).
The video does demonstrate it very well. (Visible) gas is present at the muzzle before slide rearward movement. The video was intended to demonstrate other characteristics, but it can be seen, but not at (the stated) 1200 FPS. I slowed it to about 12,000 FPS. Only the set at 1:30 actually shows the trigger pull. Unfortunately, we can't see the striker fall, as you can the hammer fall on a 1911. Similar videos of a 1911 firing show the same. No slide movement and no barrel unlock until gas exits the muzzle. The physical laws DO support it. (unloaded pistol) Grasp the slide and push/pull on the barrel. It remains locked. Only the slide and barrel moving rearward, in relation to the frame, caused them to unlock. The same condition applies during ignition. Something causes them to move rearward. At the time of ignition, the barrel and slide are locked together, with the cartridge case and bullet contained within. As the expanding gas forces the departure of the bullet and case, the pressure is applied equally, to the bullet and breach. Something must, independently, force the entire assembly rearward. That is the gas. As with all things in nature (except my wife), it will take the path of least resistance. The mass of the slide is much greater than that of the bullet (about 50:1, as it is in the video). The bullet moves in relation to nature, as does the barrel/slide. Add to the equation, the bullet-bore friction, as well as the compression of (atmospheric) gas forward of the bullet added to the escaping explosive gas around the bullet. The end result is, it is all about the gas. The additional mass of a compensator and/or longer barrel is of little consequence. If it were, we wouldn't need to port it to gain the desired affect. The same bullet at the same velocity with a more or less "gassier" powder charge can vary from violent slide velocities to nearly no action cycling. I can demonstrate this at will.
Blow-back action (often improperly referred to "recoil action"), the expanding gas causes the force between the bullet and case. They both move away from each other at exactly the same rate of energy. The comparative mass insists the bullet move away at a much higher velocity.
With gas delayed action, it's no different, except the action is held mechanically locked, by gas pressure, until the pressure drops to a specific level. In almost every case, this is after the projectile bullet (the resistance) exits the muzzle. "Gas operated semi-automatic" rifles are essentially the opposite. The action remains mechanically locked until the pressure behind the bullet (the resistance) accesses the gas port, releasing the mechanical lock, by any number of means.
In every example, it's the gas that initiates and operates the action. Recoil is what you feel after all that goings-on is done.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 07 2015 03:27:47 PM MDT
BTW the video of the G-19 doesn't eject the spent casing...No Ejector! or Broken Ejector!
I noticed that, too. More likely a misaligned ejector. The case does ride the slide all the way rearward. In the later demonstrations, with a magazine in place, we see the case being pushed up/outward.
QuoteYes the Barrel and slide do start to move as a result of the cartridge being fired and before the bullet leaves the bore.
It is also why I like the fact that a non captive recoil spring exerts slightly more pressure to hold the slide closed.
Some captive factory springs have been known to just fall out while removing the slide from the frame, I have to believe this may in fact be a cause for early unlock. I could be wrong but, I have more confidence with the non captive set up from Wolff with a measured difference being applied to hold it in battery.
We aren't seeing the same thing, then. It isn't possible, by design. The projectile includes the bullet, the combustible, and all the resultant properties. It is possible for significant gas to exit ahead of the bullet (as seen in that video). This, coupled with atmospheric pressure resistance can cause movement, but in all but the rarest of cases is it enough to force the action. I suspect the very generous Glock freebore, an undersize bullet (or oversize bore), and/or just a worn out pistol.
In regards to the springs....
The non-captive springs don't exert any more static pressure than captive, unless they are heavier to begin with. The correct sized RSA, be it OEM or aftermarket, doesn't float freely when installed. It should be engaged forward at the slide hole, rearward at the frame just ahead of the slide lock, and should be tensioned at all times. With your Glock disassembled, install the OEM spring into the slide hole, noting the protrusion of the tip. Now, install the slide to the frame. It should protrude slightly more, indicating a proper fit and tension. They sometimes fall out at disassembly because they miss the "holding" pad on the barrel as it's disassembled. It happens to all of my Glock pistols at one time or another. I had considered using non-captured springs at one time, but opted for steel rod captured. They've served me well for a couple decades. If the spring isn't properly tensioned, it is either the wrong spring, or something is worn/broken, such as the slide lock. There's nothing wrong with the non-captured springs, IMO. I just prefer what I'm using. I've shattered a couple OEM guide rods, but haven't had any issues with steel.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 02:15:08 PM MDT
...
I understand perfectly how it works. As I said, recoil is a product of gas expansion. Recoil is nothing more than what the shooter "feels". The expanding gas initiates comparative mass departure. Kinetic and potential energies complete the cycle. Newton's laws describe it. Delayed blow-back, by any definition, is the manipulation of gas timing, regardless of the implementation.
Recoil is the product of the conservation of momentum.
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on July 07 2015 05:28:11 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 02:15:08 PM MDT
...
I understand perfectly how it works. As I said, recoil is a product of gas expansion. Recoil is nothing more than what the shooter "feels". The expanding gas initiates comparative mass departure. Kinetic and potential energies complete the cycle. Newton's laws describe it. Delayed blow-back, by any definition, is the manipulation of gas timing, regardless of the implementation.
Recoil is the product of the conservation of momentum.
.
Sure. By that loose application of Newton's Law, every firearm created since the flintlock is recoil operated. Recoil is a product of the event of gas expansion, in this discussion. I never said recoil IS gas expansion.
Uh...not to interrupt, but my question was about certain powders supposedly generating more gas. Or is this just another way of saying a slower burn leads to more gas? Or some elements of the compound cause more gas?
Quote from: EdMc on July 08 2015 06:01:43 AM MDT
Uh...not to interrupt, but my question was about certain powders supposedly generating more gas. Or is this just another way of saying a slower burn leads to more gas? Or some elements of the compound cause more gas?
Generally the heavier the powder charge the more gas is generated. The long chain molecules that make up the solid powder are broken apart, and then reform into gas molecules (N2, O2, CO2, H2O, H2, etc). Two different powders of the same weight, but different burn rate should produce the same amount of gas molecules. The slower burning powder just produces them gas molecules at a slower rate.
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Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 07:14:04 PM MDT
Quote from: my_old_glock on July 07 2015 05:28:11 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 02:15:08 PM MDT
...
I understand perfectly how it works. As I said, recoil is a product of gas expansion. Recoil is nothing more than what the shooter "feels". The expanding gas initiates comparative mass departure. Kinetic and potential energies complete the cycle. Newton's laws describe it. Delayed blow-back, by any definition, is the manipulation of gas timing, regardless of the implementation.
Recoil is the product of the conservation of momentum.
.
Sure. By that loose application of Newton's Law, every firearm created since the flintlock is recoil operated. Recoil is a product of the event of gas expansion, in this discussion. I never said recoil IS gas expansion.
I never said you did say that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading
I know when a friend of mine is drunk because he becomes an expert on everything. When he is drunk, he knows more about the ocean than Jacques Cousteau; he knows more about rockets than Wernher Von Braun; he knows more about the surface of the moon than Neil Armstrong; he knows more about he Universe than Carl Sagan.
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on July 08 2015 10:08:16 AM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 07:14:04 PM MDT
Quote from: my_old_glock on July 07 2015 05:28:11 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 07 2015 02:15:08 PM MDT
...
I understand perfectly how it works. As I said, recoil is a product of gas expansion. Recoil is nothing more than what the shooter "feels". The expanding gas initiates comparative mass departure. Kinetic and potential energies complete the cycle. Newton's laws describe it. Delayed blow-back, by any definition, is the manipulation of gas timing, regardless of the implementation.
Recoil is the product of the conservation of momentum.
.
Sure. By that loose application of Newton's Law, every firearm created since the flintlock is recoil operated. Recoil is a product of the event of gas expansion, in this discussion. I never said recoil IS gas expansion.
I never said you did say that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil_operation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas-operated_reloading)
I know when a friend of mine is drunk because he becomes an expert on everything. When he is drunk, he knows more about the ocean than Jacques Cousteau; he knows more about rockets than Wernher Von Braun; he knows more about the surface of the moon than Neil Armstrong; he knows more about he Universe than Carl Sagan.
.
I don't know how to be more clear, and I'm not a think as you drunk I am. Categorical classifications aren't in dispute, and Widipedia is about as reliable as scribbling on a restroom wall. We know what they are called, regardless of how they actually work, which is my point. Short of a genuine "machine" gun, all self-loaders are reloaded by recoil, in the strict definition. Recoil doesn't provide any energy, nor does it initiate any process. Recoil is a simple name for one result of a complicated process of conversion and storage of energy. As I said before, it doesn't matter to me what it's called, it's all about the gas, and what we do with it. Recoil, within the firearm, is only a very small piece of a very large puzzle. I'm not redefining a classification. I'm describing a process. When the world was flat, it wasn't. It was flat because that is what they saw, and that is what they called it. Some people today still believe that.
I have wondered how viable the .460 Rowland is as a hunting and/or combat cartridge. Does it work at the same ranges as our beloved 10mm? What type of trajectory does it offer? Is it similar, or does it arc as do the other big bore Magnum cartridges?
I am ashamed to say that I have yet to research the cartridge adequately to gain a complete understanding.
Captain O
Quote from: Captain O on December 23 2015 12:51:37 AM MST
I have wondered how viable the .460 Rowland is as a hunting and/or combat cartridge. Does it work at the same ranges as our beloved 10mm? What type of trajectory does it offer? Is it similar, or does it arc as do the other big bore Magnum cartridges?
I am ashamed to say that I have yet to research the cartridge adequately to gain a complete understanding.
Captain O
It's viable as a hunting platform, not so much as a combat piece, IMO. Perhaps for a specialized need, but not practical. There are many SBR options much better suited to those tasks.
Same range as the 10mm? I'd say so. It has as much bullet energy at 100 yds, as the 10mm at the muzzle (with a VERY healthy round). No mysteries with the trajectory. It follows the same rules. It's the bullet mass and B.C. vs. the atmosphere. To be more specific, with a 50 yd. zero, the holdover at 100 yds. is 4.7" with a trajectory apogee of 0.5" @ 26 yds (calculated, then confirmed). This with the 230 gr. XTP, 1366 FPS (953 ft/lb) @ 50 yds, and 1238(783) @ 100 yds. This according to the latest testing session, with still some room for increase. Next up for testing is the Hornady 225 gr. FTX. This should be interesting!
I have just bought a Clark Conversion and had it fitted to a Colt Govenment model.
I have Power Pistol, #7, and Longshot powders. I will probably start loading 230 grain FMJ's as I have a lot of them. Clark recommended starting with the 20# spring and move up to the 24# as my loads go up.
Where would you recommend starting?
Quote from: BEEMER! on December 23 2015 12:05:43 PM MST
I have just bought a Clark Conversion and had it fitted to a Colt Govenment model.
I have Power Pistol, #7, and Longshot powders. I will probably start loading 230 grain FMJ's as I have a lot of them. Clark recommended starting with the 20# spring and move up to the 24# as my loads go up.
Where would you recommend starting?
First, I STRONGLY recommend slugging your bore and measuring the bullet diameters. While Longshot didn't seem to matter much, AA7 was quite sensitive to the overbore differential. Also, seat them as long as you can reliably feed them. I can reliably seat 230 gr. XTP's at 1.289", in my pistol. Start long, and reduce as necessary, but be sure to adjust and work up the powder charge accordingly. The big bullets eat up case capacity very quickly. Also note, my barrel is 6.6" with a tuned comp. YMMV.
Starting load recommendations:
AA7, 14.0 gr. start, 15.8 gr. MAX @ 1.275" COL.
LS, 10.6 gr. start, 12.0 gr. MAX @ 1.275" COL. (velocity began to plateau 11.6-11.8 gr., for me)
PP is too fast, IMO. Perhaps OK for plinkers (.45Super limit), but I would not recommend pushing it up. There are some PP loads published around the net, but it's far from practical, IMO. It may not get along with your comp, either. Autocomp and HS7 have some potential, though.
Blue Dot is also an excellent powder for the .460R, but I DO NOT recommend trying it unless you are experienced and comfortable with powder charge compression, which will be required for optimal performance. Forget trying any slower powders. They just don't fit!
Quote from: DM1906 on December 23 2015 11:25:46 AM MST
Quote from: Captain O on December 23 2015 12:51:37 AM MST
I have wondered how viable the .460 Rowland is as a hunting and/or combat cartridge. Does it work at the same ranges as our beloved 10mm? What type of trajectory does it offer? Is it similar, or does it arc as do the other big bore Magnum cartridges?
I am ashamed to say that I have yet to research the cartridge adequately to gain a complete understanding.
Captain O
It's viable as a hunting platform, not so much as a combat piece, IMO. Perhaps for a specialized need, but not practical. There are many SBR options much better suited to those tasks.
Same range as the 10mm? I'd say so. It has as much bullet energy at 100 yds, as the 10mm at the muzzle (with a VERY healthy round). No mysteries with the trajectory. It follows the same rules. It's the bullet mass and B.C. vs. the atmosphere. To be more specific, with a 50 yd. zero, the holdover at 100 yds. is 4.7" with a trajectory apogee of 0.5" @ 26 yds (calculated, then confirmed). This with the 230 gr. XTP, 1366 FPS (953 ft/lb) @ 50 yds, and 1238(783) @ 100 yds. This according to the latest testing session, with still some room for increase. Next up for testing is the Hornady 225 gr. FTX. This should be interesting!
Interesting cartridge to say the least! This puts it right up with someof the other Magnum handgun rounds. It looks as if it is an easy transformation and it isn't irreversible. Segregating the sets of conversion parts, however, are an absolute requirement!
Quote from: DM1906 on December 23 2015 01:01:35 PM MST
Quote from: BEEMER! on December 23 2015 12:05:43 PM MST
I have just bought a Clark Conversion and had it fitted to a Colt Govenment model.
I have Power Pistol, #7, and Longshot powders. I will probably start loading 230 grain FMJ's as I have a lot of them. Clark recommended starting with the 20# spring and move up to the 24# as my loads go up.
Where would you recommend starting?
First, I STRONGLY recommend slugging your bore and measuring the bullet diameters. While Longshot didn't seem to matter much, AA7 was quite sensitive to the overbore differential. Also, seat them as long as you can reliably feed them. I can reliably seat 230 gr. XTP's at 1.289", in my pistol. Start long, and reduce as necessary, but be sure to adjust and work up the powder charge accordingly. The big bullets eat up case capacity very quickly. Also note, my barrel is 6.6" with a tuned comp. YMMV.
Starting load recommendations:
AA7, 14.0 gr. start, 15.8 gr. MAX @ 1.275" COL.
LS, 10.6 gr. start, 12.0 gr. MAX @ 1.275" COL. (velocity began to plateau 11.6-11.8 gr., for me)
PP is too fast, IMO. Perhaps OK for plinkers (.45Super limit), but I would not recommend pushing it up. There are some PP loads published around the net, but it's far from practical, IMO. It may not get along with your comp, either. Autocomp and HS7 have some potential, though.
Blue Dot is also an excellent powder for the .460R, but I DO NOT recommend trying it unless you are experienced and comfortable with powder charge compression, which will be required for optimal performance. Forget trying any slower powders. They just don't fit!
Thanks for the advice.
I thought that Power Pistol seemed a little fast, but the data I have seen listed it and it was on my shelf anyway.
I really like Blue Dot and I used to load it compressed in 357 Sig if I remember right. Can you direct me to a source of information regarding compressed loads with it?
Beemer!
There's not much to tell, and most .460R shooters are hung up on AA7 and Longshot, so not much help there, either. I suggest starting about 13.6 gr. Blue Dot with 230 gr. bullets and work from there. I got up to 14.8 gr, but I don't have a maximum, yet. I paused my workups due to weather at the time, and haven't got back to it. I will over the next month or so, weather permitting.
DM1906
Thanks again. Wanted to make sure I was not missing something. I have loaded a lot of compressed rifle loads but not many in pistol or revolver cartridges.
Quote from: BEEMER! on December 28 2015 06:59:23 AM MST
DM1906
Thanks again. Wanted to make sure I was not missing something. I have loaded a lot of compressed rifle loads but not many in pistol or revolver cartridges.
Blue Dot is a little different than spherical or cylindrical/tubular powders, in that it is medium size flat disc type flecks. Tapping the case on your press or bench after a powder drop helps to settle it. Or, you can settle an entire tray (I normally use MTM Universal) by placing a sheet of card stock or manila folder on top of the cases, then another tray (or other flat surface, with cases pinched between them), then use a massager on the top tray for a few seconds of subtle vibration. It may sound silly, but it settles them very consistently, which can be felt during bullet seating, and seating depths will be more consistent. The X-Treme 230 gr. HP's didn't start to "feel" compressed until about 14.4 gr. seated to 1.275".
Good information, thanks again.
I used to load 338 Winchester Mag with 4350. I used a funnel with an 8" drop tube and would still have to compress the powder. One of the most accurate and uniform loads I had in the bigger calibers.
I could never get enough H110 in the 454 cases to reach max. Very hard to compress also so I switched to AA#9.
I understand the .454 and H110. It's the same with .41 and .44 Mag and monolithic bullets. I pre-compress to seating depth to allow seating with minimal force, which prevents bullet deformation (it's worth it). AA9 is OK, and so is 2400 (faster) and 4227 (slower). 4227 is a monster in long barrel .460 and .500 SWM, at significantly lower pressures than the others. 2400 performs much better than the others, if the barrel length is less than 4" in any of the above calibers.