A final word on Grand Power pistols and it's not good!

[Intercooler]

I also think the Witness might be a better handle than the CZ.

[sqlbullet]

As I recall you can't cycle the action of the CZ with the safety engaged.  One of the things I like about the Witness is I can clear the gun with the safety on.

[wadcutter]

Well since +P+ can be any pressure the ammo manufacturer wants and is at least 42,000 psi  can you really blame Grand Power for not recommending it? They're not the only company who feels that way either and as a small company I can't really blame them.  I don't think it's fair to single them out for not approving the use of high pressure ammo in their guns especially when there's no limit on how high that pressure can be. I think a 357 Sig is what you really need if high performance 9mm is your goal. As for the 10mm Grand Power it's too early to tell. You can't really judge the capability of their 10mm gun based on what they tell you not to do with their 9mm gun.

[sqlbullet]

It can't be any pressure.  By definition +p+ is higher than defined pressure but lower than a proof round.  Basically the mfg would have to design their gun to be able to eat a steady diet of proof rounds.  That would be 50,000 PSI, assuming a proof load 130% above 9X19 +P (38,500 PSI X 1.30)

[Intercooler]

Well since +P+ can be any pressure the ammo manufacturer wants and is at least 42,000 psi  can you really blame Grand Power for not recommending it? They're not the only company who feels that way either and as a small company I can't really blame them.  I don't think it's fair to single them out for not approving the use of high pressure ammo in their guns especially when there's no limit on how high that pressure can be. I think a 357 Sig is what you really need if high performance 9mm is your goal. As for the 10mm Grand Power it's too early to tell. You can't really judge the capability of their 10mm gun based on what they tell you not to do with their 9mm gun.

Yes and no. Did you look at the link I posted up there? It shows much of what you question including Federal and Winchester setting their limits at 42k.

  I possibly did ask that sales representative prior if it would run those ammos and got a yes. Then it was already at the FFL and I asked about running those ammos and the waffling began. It was yes, then no, then three MFG's. All the while I have some Eagle Imports sponsored shooter saying no the entire time. As you can see I posted other gun MFG's guidelines for ammo types.

  In the end it was a final answer of go with the manual and shoot standard only.
 
 

[sqlbullet]

42,000 is the commonly accepted ceiling as that is a standard 9X19 proof round.  The spec on +p+ was not clear to me if it was based on 130% of the standard, non +p ammo, or if it was based on +p ammo*130%.

Either way, it is not a moving target for a gun maker.  It is a high standard though.

I like the way Glock handles it.  Basically they say +p is fine, and +p+ won't hurt you, but will wear out your gun faster.

No matter.  Looks like GP is not gonna rock the 10mm world.

[Intercooler]

    We don't have +P and +P+ for 10mm. Then what?

I have always heard those ammo types wear a gun out faster. I can't find a documented case of it though and most people concur.

I don't think any of mine have wore out differently. My Hunter still chugs along and looks new.

[will965]

Ya, I've looked at a bunch of witnesses.. Only ones I liked or came recommended were the elite match and above. And from reading here they many times need work to make them run well.  They are still a good consideration and an elite match is on the list.. But I do love the CZs and the ones i have owned were phenomenal shooters with perfect reliability. Seem to be tanks,made me think good basis for strtong 10mm...think they would make them well.

[DM1906]

Regardless of whether or not their 9mm pistols will handle +P, or +P+, it is irrelevant to any comparison to 10mm or developing a platform for it. The bore volume and cross-sectional area is key, and puts the 10mm, in relation to the platforms, in a much different class. A ~10% greater diameter does not equate to a mere 10% increase of force management. It's exponential, simply.  Otherwise, we'd have a bunch of 9mm-frame pistols chambered in 10mm. A 9mm+P+ round in a 10mm frame is a pussycat. 9mm fired from my G20 requires an 11# RSA. +P will cycle with a 15#, but is unreliable with the OEM 17# or greater, in my pistol. A 9mm+P+ round fired from 10mm barrel won't cycle at all, not unlike firing a .40SW or 10mm in a .45ACP barrel. I do NOT recommend or condone trying this. These were safety tests under controlled conditions. Nothing remarkable happened (other than destroyed brass), but that doesn't mean it won't at some time.

The bottom line is, they will have to start over and design a 10mm platform from scratch. Or not, it seems.

[Intercooler]

  It seems the barrels are what they are scared of having an issue. The 10mm is on a different frame P40L.

[Intercooler]

Ya, I've looked at a bunch of witnesses.. Only ones I liked or came recommended were the elite match and above. And from reading here they many times need work to make them run well.  They are still a good consideration and an elite match is on the list.. But I do love the CZs and the ones i have owned were phenomenal shooters with perfect reliability. Seem to be tanks,made me think good basis for strtong 10mm...think they would make them well.

I have to disagree with you on this one. The Match runs right out of the box! You should spring it and/or do a few things to keep it looking new forever, but they chew any ammunition out there like gum. The slightly cheaper option is a full-size 10mm in Steel that runs great.

[sqlbullet]

IC nailed it.  The full size needed mag springs in the old red follower mags.  The new black follower mags, no changes needed.  The ones you read about are because lots of us like to tinker, not because we had reliability issues.

Both my Witness 10mm hang with my Glock 20 and 29 for reliability.  And they handle lead better.

[DM1906]

  It seems the barrels are what they are scared of having an issue. The 10mm is on a different frame P40L.

I suspect that's just an excuse. The don't want to do it, for whatever reason. The barrel is the least-weak link.

[Intercooler]

They had a frame issue and changed the design. They also had a barrel issue/recall for "heat treatment" due to failures. That design looks the same in the new model.

[DM1906]

If they're worried about barrel issues, after fixing the issue, then they haven't fixed the issue. Just doesn't make sense to me, other than they just don't have an interest in actually entertaining the idea. Talk is cheap.