Buffalo Bore 220 Hardcast

[Intercooler]

    According to the master sheet I haven't personally tested these yet. No more! I put a box on with a rimfire ammo order from Cabela's. I want to see if they are really 1109 FPS and what's inside.

[4949shooter]

Awesome!

On my next trip to Cabelas I plan on picking some up.

[mt10mm]

I have had good luck with BB ammo with my 44, it's just a lot of $

[4949shooter]

I have had good luck with BB ammo with my 44, it's just a lot of $

Which is why I had high hopes for the Underwood version.

I guess we shall see how the newer load works out.

[Intercooler]

  The Underwood version works in the right setups. It has always been the edge 10mm ammo and apparently what most want or Kevin's business wouldn't be where it is. The scaled back load will just help with equipment that isn't up to the task.

[4949shooter]

I know how you feel about that.

But...When you think of the percentage of 10mm guns that are out there, and we know Glocks and Colt Delta elites are among the most popular, the edge might be too sharp.

Edit: Here Shadow sees some issue even with your chambers from the other thread:

"They were slammin' the ejectors pretty hard, and little bit of firing pin wipe as it comes out of lockup from both guns.  Even from your chambers they are expanded in the area not in the chamber...Pressure expansion ring is showing.  I think it would be wise to drop the charge weight by 0.2 / 2 tenths and be satisfied with the velocity and less wear and tear on the guns."

Then you throw in Yondering's advice about the bullets being too long for that velocity.

I don't know...am I missing something? 

[Intercooler]

 My Witness pistols have all done that since day one. All models.

I know the Buffalo Bore will test out higher than David got. Buffalo Bore is rated the same I think.


Can we get past one ammo maker changing things when other less performers exist? If I had to guess Buffalo Bore will be 1175. PBR might be about the same when it's out. Buy those if your setup can't handle Underwood. That's how a handloader approaches what will work in each setup.

[4949shooter]

You know I love you IC,  but you don't get the point. Actually, I think you get it deep down, but you don't want to see it outright.

If Kevin wants to offer "on the edge" ammo, he should specify it as such. The same way the late Mike Willard of Swampfox did. Then he could offer a "standard" 10mm load for the guys (and gals) that want to shoot Norma level ammo in their guns.

You know what? Most 10mm shooters are not on 10mmfirearms.com. I would venture a guess that most people who own 10mm guns aren't on Glocktalk or the other forums either. So how are they supposed to know Kevin's ammo is on the "edge"? By the way, "edge" is the word you used to describe his ammo and not me. So...a 10mm shooter sees some Underwood ammo on Gunbroker, or wherever, and decides to shoot it in his Glock or Delta Elite. He doesn't know Kevin's ammo is "edge" ammo. How would he? If he hasn't been present here on 10mmfirearms.com, he hasn't seen all the extensive testing, pull downs, and discussion threads we have had here. So he thinks Kevin's ammo is perfectly safe in his Glock or Delta Elite. Now, most of Kevin's ammo is safe, but not all of it is safe in these platforms. I think we can all agree on that.

Another thing....I have bought hundreds of $$ worth of ammo from Kevin. On not one of his ammo boxes does it say not for use in a Delta Elite. Yes, it says so on his website, but not all people buy from the website as evidenced from the sales we have seen on Gunbroker. So the unsuspecting Delta shooter could in fact fire Kevin's ammo through a Delta without having seen the warning on the website. Same goes for the 220 grain hardcast load from Kevin. It may not be safe to shoot in Glocks. Maybe the new downloaded version will but we won't know until it is tested. You seem to think that if the load is "okay" in a Witness than it is good to offer to everyone. Perhaps Kevin should mark his 220 hardcast "Shoot in Witness Only." That seems to be your mentality.

Even Shadow acknowledges the brass looks questionable from your chambers. And Shadow is one of the biggest 10mm proponents I know of.

[Intercooler]

What did he say when you called him expressing all the above?

It's no different than Buffalo Bores boxes or approach. The ammo ratings included, so why only persecute Underwood?

If I were a Glock owner instead of something else, I can either shoot it or not. Whether that means better barrel, etc... If that isn't an option step down to PBR (what I sent MT10mm) or DoubleTap.

[4949shooter]

Since when is it my job to call ammo manufacturer's to tell them something they should already know? You are his spokesperson here, and you keep advocating for him. You can mention these concerns to him if you like. Like I said it's not my job.

Not persecuting Underwood....I actually like his ammo very much. As I mentioned, I have spent hundreds of 4949 $$ on it. What I don't want to see is the potential for overpressure issues out there in the shooting public (read DANGER WILL ROBINSON), and more specifically the 10mm shooting public. How many KB's have you heard of with Buffalo Bore? I haven't heard of any. How about overpressure issues with Buffalo Bore? Are there any out there? I haven't heard of any but perhaps they do exist.

Instead of putting down other peoples' platforms, you could be working together to find a safe product everyone could use in their guns. Sure, it's safe in a Witness....great. How many 10mm shooters are out there shooting Witnesses? You can research my Glock 20 vs. Colt Delta thread on the 1911 forum on Glocktalk. There are quite a few people using Delta's and Glocks. I'm not putting Witness down, I'm just saying there are a lot of other guns out there in circulation.

[4949shooter]

Here's the Glock vs. Delta thread. 7 pages..

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1356050

[Intercooler]

Where to start...

        I was no spokesperson, but I do speak to Kevin since he's a friend and I basically started 10mm when Kevin started his business. Sorry if I feel kind of slighted here, but I also have spoken to Tim Sundles, Anthony, Milo, Greg and others by being proactive to get us some 10mm options. Playing from the sidelines doesn't get any traction! Even if you get an ear (plug PPU here) they may not do anything with the suggestions no matter how much proof you send them. I put one hell of a packet together for PPU and it went dead after the first couple of exchanges. I at least try! Maybe that's what I shouldn't do.
        When someone has an issue with "ammo gone wrong" I try to help out. It also interests me to see if I can duplicate it and why I take on swaps. I think if you have a concern with any ammo or other product you should for sure contact that company! Yes, you not me!!! It's like complaining to a wall otherwise.
       There are, for sure many other platforms out there, some we don't know much about and new stuff on the horizon as of this writing at Shot Show. Countless Glock and probably Deltas too are running these ammos without any bad reports. You get that one bad barrel, one setup using a spring not rated for even a good .40 cal load, someone not cleaning properly, etc.. Next thing you know it's all the ammos fault.
       It seems we have been rehashing this for a year or two with the same ending and it get's old. We can only control what we can control...

- The ammo and loadings aren't one of them. All the specs, etc... are out there so choose them or pass by.
- The equipment absolutely!!! Excellent barrel (and everyone knows some garbage exists out there). You might have to spec one out custom. Possibly go through four to ten for one good one. Look at how many Mr.Redbull had! We can also control the springs and anything above a stout .40 type load needs the spring stepped up. It's always been my take run the highest spring you can stand that functions properly.

    Even Hickock45 has a handful of videos shooting Underwood 10mm in both stock and non-stock barrels. It can't be all that bad 

       
     

[4949shooter]

I don't consider myself playing from the sidelines! My input on this and other forums is here for everyone to read, including the ammo manufacturers. Due to the public nature of this forum people can glean what they want and make their own educated decisions. Whether you like it or not, you put yourself in the limelight by advocating for Underwood and even the other ammo manufacturers. Thus so, people are going to come to you since you have Kevin's and Anthony's ears. You are willing to go to them with what the consumers want in ammo selections, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty and people have concerns you tell us to contact them ourselves. Unfortunately, you shouldn't expect to be an advocate and spokesperson but not have others come to you with issues. Life doesn't work that way. 

Besides, not knowing me I doubt Kevin will listen. He knows you and obviously respects your opinion.

I'm not trying to bash you, buddy.  Hey, I respect all you have done for the 10mm fraternity. Without guys like you and Shadow and Sqlbullet and Reaper, we might not have a ten mike mike anymore!

[Intercooler]

  No doubt I have an ear with a few. Part of what I speak of though, is strength in numbers. I'm but one person, but as a collective whole things change! That's why, if 10, 20, 30 or more customers call, it gets more traction to the little bug I put in the ears. It took getting getting some orders after I went to a few to offer 10mm like PBR and Littlestone with hopes it would be worth their efforts. Anthony didn't realize anyone had interest in Hardcast and especially 10mm until I planted that bug.
   I don't mind the communicating the issues as well, but I have a good enough feel for something I might suggest which would make me feel like I'm talking to a wall  The main one changing someone's business approach.

[4949shooter]

  No doubt I have an ear with a few. Part of what I speak of though, is strength in numbers. I'm but one person, but as a collective whole things change! That's why, if 10, 20, 30 or more customers call, it gets more traction to the little bug I put in the ears. It took getting getting some orders after I went to a few to offer 10mm like PBR and Littlestone with hopes it would be worth their efforts. Anthony didn't realize anyone had interest in Hardcast and especially 10mm until I planted that bug.
   I don't mind the communicating the issues as well, but I have a good enough feel for something I might suggest which would make me feel like I'm talking to a wall  The main one changing someone's business approach.

And you have done a great job! Like I said before, I do appreciate your efforts.