They have some interesting 10mm. The 140gr Black Max @1550 FPS (if real) is smoking along!
Anyone have experience with them?
http://crossfireammunition.com/index.php
Q: What's the idea behind using Black oxide on brass and bullets?
A: Black Oxide is not a plating process. It is formed in a chemical reaction with the metal itself. In ferrous metals you may recall that ferrous oxide is Fe2O3 – rust. Black Oxide with ferrous metals is Fe3O4. Black Oxide combines with the iron atoms on the surface, but does not increase the thickness of the material. With copper, "cupric oxide" is formed when the copper inside the brass or in the bullets is oxidized. This Black Oxide provides a tarnish and scratch resistant finish and will last indefinitely (without abrasion). The local company that does our Black Oxide work also did the same for Olin-Winchester on their Black Talon™ ammunition, and recently the bases of the new 410(3-disk) shells designed for The Judge™.
Oh I see. So I don't have to worry about my bullets becoming tarnished or scratched.
::) ::) ::)
Quote from: LeMat on October 13 2013 11:06:21 AM MDT
Oh I see. So I don't have to worry about my bullets becoming tarnished or scratched.
::) ::) ::)
Well, this is what Crossfire Ammunition says about black oxide on their web site.
Brass - Brass knows how to do only one thing over time - It tarnishes & It turns green! When that happens, it will not feed properly in an automatic!
Black Oxide never tarnishes, and its coefficient of friction is lower than nickel or brass, so it feeds like a dream in an automatic. Cleveland Black Oxide, the same company that did the Black Oxide for Olin Winchester's Black Talons, do the Black Oxide Brass for us - and it is awesome! Just look at any 20 year-old Black Talon. You will find that it is just a black and shiny as the day it was made. That shiny black finish is permanent, an awesome feature for those concerned about Long-Term Survival !
Better go tell those boxes of 1946 230 GI Ball I have to hurry up and get tarnished! Purty as the day they were made.
Sorry, my opinion is that its just another marketing ploy by an ammo manufacturer to convince buyers that their ammo is "better".
Quote from: LeMat on October 13 2013 05:25:10 PM MDT
Better go tell those boxes of 1946 230 GI Ball I have to hurry up and get tarnished! Purty as the day they were made.
Sorry, my opinion is that its just another marketing ploy by an ammo manufacturer to convince buyers that their ammo is "better".
This.
If brass was such a fail, it would have been done differently sometime in the last 150 years. Black looks cool, and may be better to some degree, but at what cost compared to the advantage?
They want you to buy a case which might not be an option $$$. I'm trying to see what's possible to at least get the Black Max 1550 FPS 140's... and they are 8)
For $40 per box of 20 they can keep their black oxide coated bullets.
WTH... it's neat to have for the collection, on par with Buffalo Bore Barnes pricing, so I ordered my three favorite calibers 10mm, .357 and .44.
Never heard of using Pineapples but...
If it pans out decently I may get the Grenade in 9mm in a future order to see what it's like in Gel.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 13 2013 07:07:10 PM MDT
If it pans out decently I may get the Grenade in 9mm in a future order to see what it's like in Gel.
That would be cool.
Does any other MFG make a 140gr all copper in 10mm?
Quote from: Intercooler on October 13 2013 07:20:32 PM MDT
Does any other MFG make a 140gr all copper in 10mm?
There are 3 or 4 bullet mfg's, but most cartridge mfg's offer Barnes. The General bullet Crossfire uses isn't as good as Barnes, IMO, and I don't like Barnes. I use them because I have to, and I've tried them all. Wishful thinking, but Hornady needs to develop a non-lead line of pistol bullets. Their rifle bullets (GMX and MFX) are better than most of the lead core competitors.
I thought maybe these were the 140's they are using. Wonder why we only see the 125's (kind of light) and 155's (powder limits) used? If the 140's deliver it could be a good balance!
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BX40005
All copper bullets seem to run $1/bullet. Pricey!
Quote from: Intercooler on October 13 2013 07:45:47 PM MDT
I thought maybe these were the 140's they are using. Wonder why we only see the 125's (kind of light) and 155's (powder limits) used? If the 140's deliver it could be a good balance!
http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BX40005 (http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=BX40005)
All copper bullets seem to run $1/bullet. Pricey!
The 140's are the lesser of the performers, for 10mm anyway. They are OK in .40SW, but only because the 155's are too long. The 125's are short enough to get the velocity up to a respectable energy level. I load them all, and have had them all from subsonic to beyond 2,000 FPS. The 140 gr. doesn't perform as well, under any condition I've used them. They either fail to expand at all, blow up (frag), or turn inside out (around 2150 FPS in water or wetpack). They are designed to perform at subsonic velocities (900-ish), and just don't do well outside of that.
Chopinbloc will have a copper melt-down testing them all :o
You have to be careful with these. They fragment and ricochet real bad off steel. I took a frag in my thigh from 40 yds. Right through the Wranglers.
No steel. Just gel and paper ;)
And pineapples.. ;D
The owner phoned me up today. He wanted to make sure I had a fully supported chamber for the 10's. Nice fellow!
He said a customer is using them for Helicopter Hog hunting. He said he would send me a Chrony shot.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/2012-09-14_11-36-39_241_zps4b8becf2.jpg)
Test gun. Looks like a ported Omega but don't know the length.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/2012-09-14_11-39-42_575_zps20a11204.jpg)
Probably 5 inch.
What is that velocity from, the 140 grain load?
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 16 2013 01:15:10 PM MDT
Probably 5 inch.
What is that velocity from, the 140 grain load?
It should be the 140. Too fast for a commercial 155.
Quote from: DM1906 on October 16 2013 01:20:43 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 16 2013 01:15:10 PM MDT
Probably 5 inch.
What is that velocity from, the 140 grain load?
It should be the 140. Too fast for a commercial 155.
Thanks.
Yes 140.
Looks like these will be here today. Should be interesting!
The weather is very nice here and I know the range will be packed. I will be running these with the other calibers in the morning.
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1393294_602772453094124_588650771_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1378194_602772546427448_1834446593_n.jpg)
Starline brass for this one.
Those look very interesting...are we going to look inside of one? It would be nice to see what they are using to drive them at those numbers and if they meet their claims!
They have the same color "wear" on the tip of the hollowpoint as the old Black Talons had.
Yup. All three flavors and gel too.
The Omega looks to be a 6" ported I think. If that is the case, I doubt matching the box rating but I will take the Hunter and see where it falls. My guess is 1475 out of the Pro 4.75".
Yes. I take back my earlier statement that the Omega was a 5 incher. Definitely more than 5"...like you said probably 6".
Great time this morning just me for about two hours, so I took full advantage!
I don't have but about 5-6 weeks of good shooting weather before I have to call it quits for the year.
These were kind of pricey but most of the all copper rounds by any MFG are. After shooting these I have to say these over Buffalo Bore or anyone else making the all coppers currently. Maybe the .357's could use a little more Mustard but damn they shot good!! The recoil kind of shocked me because none felt all that bad. As a matter of fact the 10mm rounds I thought maybe something was wrong but all the readings were perfect MFG after MFG in all platforms. I can't wait to see Andrew smash the gel with these
Black Max .357 Magnum 125gr (GP100 6") 1433, 1446, 1463. Average = 1447.33 FPS/ 582 LBS
Black Max .44 Magnum 225gr (Redhawk 7.5") 1502, 1494, 1539. Average = 1511.66 FPS/ 1142 LBS
Black Max 10mm 140gr (EAA Limited Pro 4.75") 1607, 1600, 1600, 1604. Average = 1602.75 FPS/ 799 LBS. This is about the tightest spread I have ever seen!
Black Max 10mm 140gr (EAA Hunter 6") 1644, 1634, 1630, 1638. Average = 1636.5 FPS/ 833 LBS. Very tight again.
No wonder it's a popular Helicopter Hog round. Can't wait to see what's inside for powder.
Looking at the 10mm in particular the CED Chrony is as stated... crappy! No wonder the reviews on Midway say pass it by.
I guess I should share my results with Milo. His flap ratings are a little off :o
Very nice! Tight is right... 8) Interesting performance for sure with the 10mm ant the 140 gr. ;D
Well its raining here this morning ahead of the cool front... :(
I did some others since it was just me.
Underwood Ammo 180gr TMJ (EAA Hunter 6") 1375, 1377, 1366, 1370, 1386. Average = 1374.8 FPS/ 756 LBS
Armscor 180gr FMJ (EAA Limited Pro 4.75") 1150, 1157, 1165, 1164, 1151. Average = 1157.4 FPS/ 535 LBS
Parabellum Research Ammo 240gr FMJ Velocity Supreme (Redhawk 7.5") 1437, 1423, 1457, 1452, 1487. Average = 1451.2 FPS/ 1122 LBS
American Eagle 158gr JSP (GP100 6") 1316, 1314, 1329, 1309, 1322, 1318. Average = 1318 FPS/ 610 LBS
Magtech 115gr FMJ (EAA Elite Limited 4.75") 1224, 1214, 1198, 1222, 1208. Average = 1213.2 FPS/ 376 LBS
Remington 115gr FMJ (EAA Elite Limited 4.75") 1158, 1134, 1147, 1136, 1146. Average = 1144.2 FPS/ 334 LBS
Fiocchi 115gr FMJ (EAA Elite Limited 4.75") 1212, 1153, 1240, 1175, 1221. Average = 1200.2 FPS/ 368 LBS
It's the weirdest thing how those 10mm rounds felt. The Armscor felt real similar in comparison moving much slower. They will get a repeat order out of me for sure and possibly soon to get those Grenade rounds.
That is the second highest velocity round behind Kevin's (NFP) 155 TMJ. 1660 FPS versus 1637 FPS out of the Hunter. Smokers!
** Word of caution here**
Just measured the 10mm Black Max cases. Most were .432" with one being .436" to the right. Primers appear flattened but not the worst I have seen. Use with great support only!!!
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1385829_603291149708921_668151118_n.jpg)
Any bulges? The brass appears to be in decent shape?
Just the one laying down where you can see a little of the feed ramp. That's the .436" one.
Oh okay, I see it now.
Bummer. I won't be the first to try this ammo in a Glock.
All the others were .432" which compares to .429" measurements I got with Underwood 1300 (180's).
If you have good support it should be fine. That is the only piece with this out of the 8 fired. All the rest don't look different than the other hot stuff I have fired.
Looks good enough for me to run it in the Glock, although they may not be worth reloading afterwards! :-\
I see you're getting a little firing pin wipe as the barrel is dropping out of lock, not that big a deal. It may cause some firing pin wear over time. ::)
They have always done that but these actually look better than many others with bigger wipes.
About the brass... can it be reused? Would you want these for anything?
What is your guess on the powder and charge? It didn't seem to have the sonic boom of Power Pistol when it exits the barrel. I'm real curious what's in there.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 19 2013 11:44:34 AM MDT
Looks good enough for me to run it in the Glock, although they may not be worth reloading afterwards! :-\
I see you're getting a little firing pin wipe as the barrel is dropping out of lock, not that big a deal. It may cause some firing pin wear over time. ::)
My particular Glock seems to be well supported. I haven't had any bulges with Underwood ammo (at least not yet). I would like a little more feedback though before I try it. Especially for the price.
This will make a nice long range pistol round, which I have use for if deemed safe enough.
They look to be usable but I have to examine them more closely!
It is either Power Pistol or maybe AA#7
Here is some data I have found;
10mm Auto Handloads
Warning! Notes: A Kimber Model 1911 Stainless Target II with a one-in-16-inch twist, 5-
inch barrel was used for testing loads. Starline brass and CCI 300 Large Pistol primers
used throughout. Maximum overall cartridge length: 1.260 inches; maximum case
length: 0.992 inch; trim-to length: 0.982 inch. Maximum SAAMI pressure: 37,500 psi.
(Handloader Issue #253 - June/July 2008)
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Barnes 140 TAC-XP over Accurate AAC-7 13.0 @ 1497
Would you think it's compressed to get 1600 out of a 4.75" barrel?
Yes! Compressed Barnes shows that 13.0 gr loading slightly compressed with the 125 gr TAC_XP @ 105% load density. The 125 gr is actually shorter than the 140 gr so the 140 has to be compressed a little more using AA#7
(http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h329/21Carrier/BarnesData.png)
TAC-XP bullet lengths
125grain = 0.624"
140grain = 0.682"
155grain = 0.733"
It doesn't appear to hurt a thing though.
But we don't know for sure what they are using yet! Speculating as to what fits the profile of the results! :-\
Milo confirmed all new brass under the coating.
What does 10.0 gr's of Long Shot give? I think that is the unknown ;D
I never took the Barnes 140 grain TAC-XP out that far...I worked blindly when developing from unknowns where no data existed. ???
TAC-XP FB 140 grain pn# 40005 10mm/40S&W 0.400" 8.2 grains of Long Shot @ 1247 fps entered the 4th Jug of water.
Petals opened as designed. Classic opened petals expanded to 0.7915". Primer slightly flattened. Case expanded to 0.4275"
There maybe more room, but careful of the longer bullets by weight so as not to jack up the pressures too high...
BTW here is the results of the Acurate Arms #7
10.7 grains of AA#7 @ 1112 fps three jugs inside 3rd jug of water. Petals opened as designed. Primer badly flattened. Case expanded to 0.4280"
1.8gr's additional Long Shot = 1600 FPS?
Is that what Milo of Crossfire Ammunition said he's using?
Not exactly, but it was mentioned and my guess ;D
I had one from the first box left and fired it today out of the Limited 4.75". How about this... 1605 FPS/ 801 LBS. Crazy repeatable huh! What's the trick?
Put these over again too out of the Limited:
HPR 165gr HBFP 1275, 1272, 1260, 1267, 1263. Average = 1267.4 FPS/ 589 LBS. Last time average was 1265 FPS
PPU 180gr JHP 1086, 1068, 1060. Average = 1071 FPS/ 459 LBS
Quote from: Intercooler on October 19 2013 11:08:08 AM MDT
** Word of caution here**
Just measured the 10mm Black Max cases. Most were .432" with one being .436" to the right. Primers appear flattened but not the worst I have seen. Use with great support only!!!
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1385829_603291149708921_668151118_n.jpg)
Of these casings you sent, two of them had a very slight "SMILES" where they were pressed against the feed ramp's most forward edge. The 0.4360" was the worst of the two.
I saw that and thought they were expanded a little. It's for sure upper end 10mm and might not be for every firearm out there. Unsupported chambers like the Delta should stay far away for sure!
Updating the sheets for all the Crossfire Ammunition to reflect General Bullets. That's what is being used in the ammo:
http://shop.generalbullet.com/Handgun-Reloading-Components_c3.htm
Near .50 a bullet.
You know I did see that General bullet site before and totally forgot about it. that's about when my HDD crashed and lost some links.
Questions for our experts:
Has there been any gel testing of this yet?
Would this be a good reliable load in a Glock 29?
Haven't heard too much about these but I'm very impressed with their power. I suppose if I'm wearing a big coat I could carry them in my Glock 20.
Raggedyman has them, but no test yet. I begged last night and will again today.